Controversial : Electric collars

[Moobli]

I saw on FB there is a campaign against the proposed banning of electric collars in dog training in the UK. I believe they are already banned in Wales.
What do people think about this?
I try to keep an open mind on matters and find banning things only drives them underground, has a limited impact or worse still can lead to more choices and freedoms being removed in a knock on effect further down the line. Personally I think if ecollars were only sold to trained professionals and used for specific circumstances such as livestock worrying, car or wildlife chasing as examples then I would be ok with that. Other, more positive methods, should be tried first but for certain behaviours I do think ecollar training can be life saving.

 

[PurBee]

Caveat: ive never used them, seen them being used.

The idea of electrifying a short zap around a dogs neck to train it to not do a behaviour, personally concerns me.

If my gsd gets a weak zap from my horse fence line she goes bezerk. There’s no way in that moment or the proceeding moments of her reaction is she thinking about the thing that she was doing that provoked the pain. Instead she identifies that the fence cause her pain, and stays away from it.

So with a neck collar zap, they know its around their neck, the source of pain, which they cant run away from or avoid as its around their neck.

I can understand how, perhaps only in a qualified trainers hands, the zap is timed exactly at the moment of bad behaviour. And repeated exposure to this timing with bad behaviour would enable a dog to connect zap with bad behaviour.
Yet the first few times of use, on any dog, all i can imagine is them freaking-out at such a device around their most vulnerable part - the neck.

On reflection, sounds like they should only be available for licensed qualified trainers, as the risk of training with it with wrong technique is quite high, and could result in traumatised dogs, than well-trained ones.

p.s what is the zap strength of these collars, out of interest?

 

[PapaverFollis]

I'm very much against the idea and use of shock collars and similar.

But I'm also becoming very suspicious of the idea of banning stuff outright.

There's that unexpected outcome thing. If they are banned are people going to buy dodgy ones over the Internet that potentially cause more harm or something?

In the pet shop/country store I worked in we didn't sell them. And as a collective of store staff we generally steered people away from the aversives we did sell and offered advice on positive methods. We didn't tell head office that though! ? I don't think any of us would have been at all happy to sell shock collars...

 

[MurphysMinder]

Caveat: ive never used them, seen them being used.

The idea of electrifying a short zap around a dogs neck to train it to not do a behaviour, personally concerns me.

If my gsd gets a weak zap from my horse fence line she goes bezerk. There’s no way in that moment or the proceeding moments of her reaction is she thinking about the thing that she was doing that provoked the pain. Instead she identifies that the fence cause her pain, and stays away from it.

So with a neck collar zap, they know its around their neck, the source of pain, which they cant run away from or avoid as its around their neck.

I can understand how, perhaps only in a qualified trainers hands, the zap is timed exactly at the moment of bad behaviour. And repeated exposure to this timing with bad behaviour would enable a dog to connect zap with bad behaviour.
Yet the first few times of use, on any dog, all i can imagine is them freaking-out at such a device around their most vulnerable part - the neck.

On reflection, sounds like they should only be available for licensed qualified trainers, as the risk of training with it with wrong technique is quite high, and could result in traumatised dogs, than well-trained ones.

p.s what is the zap strength of these collars, out of interest?

I have seen the same dog have a zap from an e collar, and from an electric fence . With the former the dog did a sort of double take, then came back to the handler, with the electric fence the dog yelped loudly and was very stressed for a little while and refused to go back near the fence, so I don't feel the 2 things are in any way comparable.
I would like to see e collars only used by, or under instruction from, competent trainers, but would agree that banning them would lead to them being sold by dodgy suppliers and every Tom, Dick and Harry being able to buy them with no idea how to use them.

 

[asmp]

There’s an interesting article in The Telegraph today about it written by Ian Botham. It’s a pro article. As a non dog owner/lover I can see both sides.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Have seen them used and have tried them on myself (cheek bone or under thumb is the most similar sensation to that which the dog feels). Technology/science has moved on and there are a multitude of levels and functions and understanding and I've listened to and read a lot of theory about application of all types of aversives.

Agree with OP and MM. Like all tools they can be transformative (an invisible leash/distraction or a flat out Last Chance Saloon lifesaver) or abusive, and I've seen dogs damaged by unfair (not always necessarily harsh) handling with no implements used at all. Some of the most stressed, prematurely aged dogs I've seen are those who've had to make every decision for themselves and guess if it's right or wrong. And some people call that 'positive'.
A slippy floor and fluorescent lights can be incredibly stressful for a therapy dog.
Cortisol levels in dogs waiting in line to compete in high octane sports can be off the charts.

Do I think that cheap crap models with OFF/MEGA ZAP settings should be available to Joe Public, no, do I think that they should be banned outright for everyone, including highly skilled trainers, also no.

 

[Jenko109]

I have used one.

On level 7 out of 100.

Dog was a cow chaser. I did a tonne of training on a long line, had the dog walking past cows without reaction etc. As soon as she was let off the lead she chased cows immediately.

So she wore a collar. She had a total of two shocks. Has since never chased a cow and this was probably five years ago now.

I think they are a very useful bit of kit in the right hands and under the right circumstances. The problem with them is that people use them for problems that they shouldn't be used for, anxiety aggression etc and you have to be able to be spot on with your timing, which I imagine many people are not.

I do find it horrifying that these collars can go so high though. Level 7 for my dog was quite enough. I felt it myself. It wasn't painful as such, but it was uncomfortable and I didn't want to shock myself a second time.

 

[paddi22]

Just debating wise, from reading literature about them it seems to mention the cruelty of shocking an animals but I always wondered how are they different to using electric fencing for horses? (ie the animal does a particular behaviour and gets a shock and learns to stop the behaviour).

 

[Laafet]

I have used one.

On level 7 out of 100.

Dog was a cow chaser. I did a tonne of training on a long line, had the dog walking past cows without reaction etc. As soon as she was let off the lead she chased cows immediately.

So she wore a collar. She had a total of two shocks. Has since never chased a cow and this was probably five years ago now.

I think they are a very useful bit of kit in the right hands and under the right circumstances. The problem with them is that people use them for problems that they shouldn't be used for, anxiety aggression etc and you have to be able to be spot on with your timing, which I imagine many people are not.

I do find it horrifying that these collars can go so high though. Level 7 for my dog was quite enough. I felt it myself. It wasn't painful as such, but it was uncomfortable and I didn't want to shock myself a second time.

Me too, I had done all the other training but once the red mist descended that was it. A poodle, wore it for a month, needed to take action twice, he had a high chase drive. Never got out of control again, that was over 10 years ago and still have him today and he's a happy little dog. He knew the difference between when he had a lead on and when it was off!
Wouldn't recommend as a go to but it had a place.

I would the use of electric whether it be on a fence or horse walker is no 'better' and maybe even worse.......

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The problem is the human element.

Once an electric fence is set up, there is no human element. It's just the horse and the fence and if the horse doesn't touch the fence, it doesn't get shocked. This is easy for the horse to learn and is consistent, plus the timing is quick there so the horse links being shocked with the fence. It doesn't get randomly shocked when it is minding its own business, grazing in the middle of the field, or 5/6/7 or so seconds after it touched the fence.

With the collar, you have a human operating the timing of the shock and they can get the timing wrong, shock to punish because they have become angry/spiteful/desperate or whatever else you can imagine. As soon as an animal feels that there is no link between a behaviour and the shock, the shocks are just random for it and you are straight into the depths of learnt helplessness there.

I guess that is the reason that the study I read into learnt helplessness used dogs and electric shocks. IIRC it was an electrified floor. Some dogs could jump over a small fence and get away fro the shocks, the others couldn't and they just gave up after a while and resigned themselves to being repeatedly shocked.

So how do you ensure that only the right people have access to the equipment? In a way it is easier to ban it for everyone. We can debate the rights and wrongs but I think that is the crux of the matter.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I found this about the learnt helplessness experiment.

The Experiment
The notable part of the experiment was conducted in 1967 at the University of Pennsylvania by Martin Seligman and his colleagues. However, it only came about because two years prior, the researchers had been experimenting with classical conditioning, which is the process by which an animal or human comes to associate one stimulus with another. Seligman experimented with dogs: first a bell would be rung and then the dog would receive a shock. After a number of pairings, the dogs were classically conditioned - once they heard the bell, they’d react as if they’d already been shocked.

Seligman later crafted a box with a low fence dividing its middle. One side was electrified while the other was not. The dog could easily see and jump over the fence. Seligman predicted that if a dog was placed on the electrified section, it would simply jump to safety. However, when he used the dogs from the earlier experiment as test subjects, nearly all of them did not move. They laid down on the electrified section they were placed on.

Seligman brought in a new set of animals and found that dogs who had not experienced the first classical conditioning would always jump over the fence. He concluded that the original set of dogs had learned to be helpless - they had no control in the first half of the experiment, so they assumed they would never have control. They believed there was nothing they could do to avoid the shocks, even when there was a clear option they could take to do so. Seligman called this condition “learned helplessness.”

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Sorry for posting again but I thought of a good way to phrase it.

If electric collars are legal, it is inevitable that some people who should not use them, will use them and that dogs will suffer as a result of this. So the question is - is that an acceptable trade off for having them available to the people who will use them correctly?

 

[CorvusCorax]

One could ask the question about bits, whips, spurs or even cars or knives.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Absolutely. It can be a bit of rabbit hole when you start to wonder about stuff and I definitely don't know the answer.

 

[FestiveG]

We have electrified sheep netting in the yard, to keep the dogs away from the gate into the field. The labs both touched it once and now know if it's electrified or not! The rotter just will not go near it, having been zapped once. I have no problem with the fence because the dogs get to choose if they go near it or not, a shock collar is a different kettle of fish for me.

 

[smolmaus]

One could ask the question about bits, whips, spurs or even cars or knives.

Bits and whips sure I see that but you do need a license to operate a car and the selling of knives is "controlled" to some degree and neither of them have the primary purpose of applying a positive punishment.

I think of it more like when they banned smacking your kids. Some people will use positive physical punishment with restraint and no harm comes of it but a lot of people will damage their kids by hitting them, sometimes severely, so for the sake of harm reduction we get a total ban on it. Some people will of course still hit their children (or buy shock collars) but at least it's harder to do and a statement is being made that they are not necessarily safe or harmless.

ETA: I have no real dog in this fight, so to speak, just a casual interest in dog training. So this is an "outsiders" point of view really.

 

[CorvusCorax]

It doesn't always have to be used as a punishment. Plenty of people with deaf dogs use them at low levels or the vibrate function. Is using a leash pop or voice or loud noise or any other distraction to break a dogs concentration/stop it zoning out on something, always 'punishment'?

A licensing system for would be sensible IMO.

As MM said, the belts I have had off electric fencing are very different from the sensation of modern collars that I've tried on my face or hand. It's more like I've spilled lemonade on myself.

 

[smolmaus]

It doesn't always have to be used as a punishment. Plenty of people with deaf dogs use them at low levels or the vibrate function. Is using a leash pop or voice or loud noise or any other distraction to break a dogs concentration/stop it zoning out on something, always 'punishment'?

A licensing system for would be sensible IMO.

As MM said, the belts I have had off electric fencing are very different from the sensation of modern collars that I've tried on my face or hand. It's more like I've spilled lemonade on myself.

Yeah I think for deaf dogs that is a special case. Maybe they could be prescribed by vets for deaf dogs? That would certainly send the message that they are specialist tools and not for everyone to use.

I'm not trying to get into the "all punishment is bad" thing, just saying that it is the collars primary purpose. It isn't there primarily for guidance or direction as a bit or a leash or a voice command, it is just there to apply an aversive feeling at a distance. You can still damage a dog with leash pops or yelling at them but as others have said above, I think the disconnect between behaviour/ human handler/ zap makes it all a bit more complicated psychologically and perhaps easier to mess it up, even without getting into people turning it up too high or leaving it on so long that it breaks skin because they don't really know what they're doing.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I gotcha. I know it's a really emotive subject.

 

[Annette4]

I can see the value in the right hands (the same as prong collars which I have used once on a specific dog under careful watch of an experienced trainer) but I personally would only use one as a last resort on the right dog.

I do keep thinking about it for Dobby for certain behaviours but he is improving, all be it slowly, with positive reinforcment at the moment and the best thing we have done is move house, reduce walks and hand feed so I'm persevering for now. The girls are both way too sensitive and I wouldn't dream of it.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I knew someone with two Patterdale terriers, father and son. They were a lovely pair but could not be trusted off lead near any sort of livestock. They once killed a cat they came across on a footpath. Their owner really wanted to be able to let them loose sometimes so bought shock collars. She only had to apply the shock once to the son, not at full power obviously and after that just the vibrate was enough to remind him and very rarely needed. His dad was made of sterner stuff and needed a reminder just once. After that she was able to walk them loose and they would come back the minute she called. They were two of the loveliest cheekiest dogs I have ever met. She however was an experienced dog handler and knew what she was doing. Most of the people I know I wouldn't let near a shock collar but she was an exception.

 

[honetpot]

One could ask the question about bits, whips, spurs or even cars or knives.

I suppose that they visible abuse, and in theory more easily monitored. I know someone who used to tease his dog with one, as far as I could see I saw no visible reason why one should be used, the only reason I knew he was doing it and could understand the dog's reaction was because he told me. It's also very difficult to prove. The terrible thing was his dog was besotted by the owner, he would try and encourage dog to do things he didn't like, these were just normal dog behaviour, just so he could use it.

 

[Ginny4dogs]

I saw on FB there is a campaign against the proposed banning of electric collars in dog training in the UK. I believe they are already banned in Wales.
What do people think about this?
I try to keep an open mind on matters and find banning things only drives them underground, has a limited impact or worse still can lead to more choices and freedoms being removed in a knock on effect further down the line. Personally I think if ecollars were only sold to trained professionals and used for specific circumstances such as livestock worrying, car or wildlife chasing as examples then I would be ok with that. Other, more positive methods, should be tried first but for certain behaviours I do think ecollar training can be life saving.

Thank you so much for making this post! I spent 30 years with horses and am your typical rural dog owner who happens to have e-collar experience. Modern E-collars are vastly misunderstood. You're quite right on a few points. They are banned in Wales, where sheep attacks have increased subsantially in the 10 years or so that e-collars have been banned. Banning does drive things underground but when an e-collar is used under supervision as intended, it is not only humane but absolutely life saving. In the case of livestock worrying, the intention is that the dog thinks the painful (but harmless) 'blunt stimulation' comes from the livestock in question, and therefore creates an aversion to that species, with no negative or dterimental impact on the dog. This is obviously life saving for the dog as the farmer will have no need to shoot and kill your dog. It also saves the sheep from literally being torn limb from limb. They are also used by experienced trainers to help dogs through other issues, whichcan and do otherwise result in euthanasia. For most trainers the e-collar plays a very small part in their dog training tool box and works alongside reward based training. Responsible, appropriate and accurate use is key, and as with any tool, it's the person holding the tool not the tool itself that can be abused. There are many pieces of equipement used on horses that quickly become tools of torture in the wrong hands, and there aren't many early bits that we'd use on horses today. I have personal experience and started a public fb group which anyone is welcome to look at (3) E-Collars - Dog Owners Supporting their Humane Use | Facebook , as well as a video testimonial group (3) E-Collars - Real Life Videos | Facebook . Rather than ban a tool that is used in the vast majority of cases to improve and preserve life, I'd be looking to create legislation that kite marked them so that the cheap and nasty rip offs were taken off the market, and I'd look at developing appropriate training and education in general. It might also be worth anyone interested in looking at a group called ARDO The Association of Responsible Dog Owners. at ARDO - The Association of Responsible Dog Owners UK (joinardo.com) Thanks again! Ginny

 

[laura_nash]

I used one many years ago on a rescue dog I had who was handed in as "uncontrollable" by his previous owners. We resolved most of his behaviour, which was mostly just attention seeking and lack of exercise, but just couldn't get a 100% reliable recall. He also retained a tendency to suddenly shoot off to "visit" other dogs on our local park, he'd be walking to heel fine and then with no warning he'd be off - he would usually come back before he reached them but it wasn't fair on the other dogs and their owners to see him charging over towards them. I tested the collar on myself first to get the strength right, and the collar made a noise and then a vibrate before the shock. I only had to actually shock him twice and then he would stop when he heard the noise. He only wore it for a year and we had no more trouble for the remaining 12 years we owned him. I guess without it he would have spent most of his life on the lead. It would be a shame if they were all banned.

 

[jules9203]

I have a JRT who is pretty good recall wise (for a JRT!) Unfortunately he loves 'playing' with our horses. Every now and them I need to use the E collar just to remind him. I don't like using it but rather that than the (at best) huge vets bill from him being squashed by one of my horses or (at worst) losing him through injury or having to be pts. He reacts to it immediately and totally associates it with what he's doing at the time.

 

[TheresaW]

I have mentioned on here before about Luna and the electric fence at the horses. She’s now coming up to 4yo. Still stays well out of the way of all horses, both mine and any we meet out and about. (She is always on long lead when out, but comes back to me if we see horses). She has no fear of the fence at all, and jumps/ducks under it all the time. I do switch it off before letting her out of car.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Our far neighbour who was dreadful about letting their dogs chase the local sheep had the attitude that their dogs having fun was more important than the sheep. The son of the family told me this with a straight face.

I've also had a dog owner tell me that the kill instinct has been bred out of domestic dogs completely so it's fine for them to be loose in fields with livestock. Again, they genuinely believed it.

They are banned in Wales, where sheep attacks have increased subsantially in the 10 years or so that e-collars have been banned.

The issue is far more complicated than just the banning of e collars (I'm in Wales).

 

[Moobli]

Our far neighbour who was dreadful about letting their dogs chase the local sheep had the attitude that their dogs having fun was more important than the sheep. The son of the family told me this with a straight face.

I've also had a dog owner tell me that the kill instinct has been bred out of domestic dogs completely so it's fine for them to be loose in fields with livestock. Again, they genuinely believed it.

Very difficult to educate people when there are those that genuinely believe the above.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It's really depressing. You might as well talk to a brick wall.

 

[DabDab]

The problem with things like this is that you will never come across someone who uses one and admits to using it badly and/or in anger, frustration etc. Everyone who has ever used one has used it expertly and for purely humane reasons.

But of course we know that's not true.

Not to say that they should be banned, but just that it makes it difficult to have a fact-based discussion about it.