Controversial : Electric collars

[Clodagh]

Much as in theory I support their use when needed, I have only seen them used in wholly inappropriate settings or methods. The three uses I know of:
1. Dog barking in kennels, never exercised or engaged with. Owner pressed and held the button when he'd have enough of the barking, no consistency, no other methods tried. He did it vindictively, not with any thoughts of moving forwards.
2. Young dog running in out shooting. At 12 months wearing a collar. Owner twice accidently zapped it on full whack while not intending to. Dog hid behind me, terrified.
3. Peg dog, untrained and out of control, shocked whenever the owner had enough of yelling at it.

All those above scenarios did not need a collar, they needed training. The first person had certificates saying they were a dog behaviourist so presumably would be allowed to buy one under any tighter legislation.
On the other hand foxhounds get shot if they riot on livestock, so I can see a collar would be preferable to a bullet.

 

[CorvusCorax]

All of the incidences of poor use cited mostly sound like these are people who are sociopaths anyway and if it wasn't a collar on a dog, it would be something else.

 

[Clodagh]

All of the incidences of poor use cited mostly sound like these are people who are sociopaths anyway and if it wasn't a collar on a dog, it would be something else.

That is very true.

 

[only_me]

We had an electric collar years ago on our beagle. it wasn’t used for training purposes though, we had an invisible fence system around the house so he was trained to stay within property line (about 2-3 acres of orchard and house in middle of countryside) with it, so similar to an electric fence.
Dog was trained to the beep - the invisible fence was a line that you set around the border or whereever you want the dog to be allowed. Then the warning beep is set at a certain distance from the wire eg. 8ft away. The dog is trained that once hears the beep must turn back and head to wards house/go no further.
if dog persists and gets closer, eg. 2ft, will get a mild shock To stop them from going further.
kinda like an electric fence for a horse, and kept our dog from getting flattened by a Lorry!

Labs haven’t really had need for it, they don’t have quite the head down ears off mode that the beagles had ?

 

[scats]

I had an argument with my brother last year because he put a prong collar on my mums dog. He also has used a shock collar with his Mali and still regularly walks her with the prong collar. I did post a thread about it at the time.
I no longer have any discussions with him about it because we come to blows.

 

[blackcob]

I might be being too simplistic here but for a repeat livestock chaser, isn't the answer to prevent the dog from accessing livestock rather than resorting to an electric collar? Similar for say a terrier or hound type dog, nobody should be surprised that a terrier is gonna terrier and chase small furry things, their environment and exercise needs to be managed appropriately. I wouldn't consider either a problem to fix, only one to prevent. Possibly I just have low expectations of dogs? ?

 

[Clodagh]

I might be being too simplistic here but for a repeat livestock chaser, isn't the answer to prevent the dog from accessing livestock rather than resorting to an electric collar? Similar for say a terrier or hound type dog, nobody should be surprised that a terrier is gonna terrier and chase small furry things, their environment and exercise needs to be managed appropriately. I wouldn't consider either a problem to fix, only one to prevent. Possibly I just have low expectations of dogs? ?

I suppose it depends where you live. If you lived on a livestock farm it might be better to train in order to stop the issue.

 

[Widgeon]

We had an electric collar years ago on our beagle. it wasn’t used for training purposes though, we had an invisible fence system around the house so he was trained to stay within property line (about 2-3 acres of orchard and house in middle of countryside) with it, so similar to an electric fence.
Dog was trained to the beep - the invisible fence was a line that you set around the border or whereever you want the dog to be allowed. Then the warning beep is set at a certain distance from the wire eg. 8ft away. The dog is trained that once hears the beep must turn back and head to wards house/go no further.
if dog persists and gets closer, eg. 2ft, will get a mild shock To stop them from going further.
kinda like an electric fence for a horse, and kept our dog from getting flattened by a Lorry!

Labs haven’t really had need for it, they don’t have quite the head down ears off mode that the beagles had ?

This is the only context in which I've seen them used - it was a Romanian rescue collie living on a horse yard with a lane and footpath at the end of the drive. I think he couldn't be trusted (and presumably, trained) not to go legging it down the drive after other dogs. Having the collar and invisible fence system meant that he could be allowed to wander around the property at will (which was a lovely life for him), rather then being contantly restricted to prevent him escaping and getting hurt.

 

[blackcob]

I still think in most circumstances you could try fencing off a small area, using a kennel or just sending the dog back in the house for those times when you can't have eyes in the back of your head before opting for a collar. FWIW small dog gets clipped on a line on the yard or bunged in the car box if I'm distracted by something or busy farting about with the horses (not my house so I can't go building kennels!) I don't personally think it a realistic expectation for most dogs to be able to free roam a farm or yard all day, with people/cars/livestock about, without getting themselves into trouble by finding their own entertainment.

 

[vallin]

As everything it depends on who's using it. I know a few people out in Canada that I follow on Instagram use them to help ensure recall in bear country.

 

[palo1]

I have seen an electric shock collar used really well and effectively BUT it is such a very time-precise and skilled use of that as a last resort that I can't see them being relevant or useful to the general dog owning public. In the instance of training I saw (one of my late mum's dogs in fact) the problem was, of course, stock chasing. My mum was determined to deal with it rather than having the dog shut up for long periods of time or PTS and a great deal of other training had been put in place. The trainer did lots of fun work with the dog in the field with sheep (trainers sheep) - lots of rewards and a combination of calm but quite 'tricky' thinking tasks as well as fun reward based stuff. The collar was on, completely passive until the moment the dog took their attention from the trainer to the sheep who were moving away. Trainer called the dog, dog ignored him, dog started to track the sheep, trainer applied electric collar once, briefly, and immediately called the dog. As soon as the dog returned to him (which was pretty instant) it got a huge fuss and a treat.

The dog experimented 3 more times with tracking (with intent) or actively running after sheep with the trainer - each time using the same sequence of activities, rewards etc. My mum had to maintain elements of training and ALWAYS be on her guard with the dog (who was on a lead with sheep unless at home). It was never a problem again after the training and my mum had said that if the training hadn't demonstrably worked within a certain period of time, the dog would be PTS.

In fact I used a similar (shock collar free) training with my terrier but using a very light long line instead. It's the training really that makes the difference but once the habit of stock chasing was instilled in mum's dog a really serious deterrent was needed and the electric shock did that job. Ideally you wouldn't ever get to that point of course but mum had had many dogs, well trained and stock safe without a problem previously.

I am not an experienced or massively capable dog trainer but the thing that this has always instilled in me is, for stock worrying, that the most vital training for any dog is a rock-solid recall. I wouldn't think you usually would need a shock collar for that tbh!! There are loads of other things that dogs do need to learn obviously, for their own safety and to be pleasant citizens and that training should be possible without resorting to an e-collar in my opinion.

 

[palo1]

I wanted to add that actually in the instance in which I have seen an e-collar used, the training and results meant that the dog had a really great quality of life subsequently. It seemed clear to me that the shocks applied were 'worth it' for the long term result for the dog. My mum was a very sensible and sympathetic trainer but needed that help in this instance. It was much better than pts or shut up for hours at home when potentially the dog could have been enjoying being out and about!

 

[Ameerapasrich]

So my old trainer about 4 years ago use to pose as a real horse lover about two months into being there I started seeing him using electric collars. They are ghastly and mean the horses use to literally ram their heads into the side rails in pain, of course I left and we lodged a complaint against him but having seen the effect of these collars up front and personal I can very firmly state there’s absolutely no reason to have them. Training is not torture, animals learn much more through positive reinforcement and kind aids. The same way even if it’s low shock you wouldn’t want to be electrocuted it’s not fair for them to be so it’s an absolute no for me.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Electric collars on horses? What country was this?

 

[Moobli]

I have never heard of the use of electric collar training in horses.

 

[w1bbler]

Have a look at take the lead dog training on Facebook. He gives many positive arguments for the use of e collars.
I have also used one with great success, enabled an unruly rescue dog, who had learnt to ignore recall to be loose walking anywhere.
You don't need an ecollar to mistreat a dog, people who loose their temper with a dog will still mistreat collar or no collar.
I do think sale of them should be regulated, only purchasable through a trainer with a compulsory training course.
My dog was never zapped on a level I hadn't tested on myself & whilst unpleasant it wasn't painful.
She once got zapped by an electric fence & remained terrified of them for the rest of her life. She was never worried about me putting her collar on, infact she would look excited as it meant walkies ?

 

[CorvusCorax]

On your last point, it's all about conditioning...if my dogs hear their chains rattling they go nuts and stick their heads in them as they know the chain = fun/walkies/food etc...but some people regard them as medieval torture implements. They'll probably get banned one day too.

 

[pickupnplay]

I use the mini educator every day not as a punishment but as a fail safe my dog is highly trained but is a dog and when he's free of lead he has to make good choices the e collar is used in the same way you would use a lead, stop him approaching people, children playing, chasing dogs cats squirrels whatever it was taught to me and him as a language we both understand and yes it is uncomfortable for him when he is corrected but it wouldn't be a correction if it felt good would it

 

[Blazingsaddles]

Have seen them used and have tried them on myself (cheek bone or under thumb is the most similar sensation to that which the dog feels). Technology/science has moved on and there are a multitude of levels and functions and understanding and I've listened to and read a lot of theory about application of all types of aversives.

Agree with OP and MM. Like all tools they can be transformative (an invisible leash/distraction or a flat out Last Chance Saloon lifesaver) or abusive, and I've seen dogs damaged by unfair (not always necessarily harsh) handling with no implements used at all. Some of the most stressed, prematurely aged dogs I've seen are those who've had to make every decision for themselves and guess if it's right or wrong. And some people call that 'positive'.
A slippy floor and fluorescent lights can be incredibly stressful for a therapy dog.
Cortisol levels in dogs waiting in line to compete in high octane sports can be off the charts.

Do I think that cheap crap models with OFF/MEGA ZAP settings should be available to Joe Public, no, do I think that they should be banned outright for everyone, including highly skilled trainers, also no.

This 100%.

 

[Blazingsaddles]

Bits and whips sure I see that but you do need a license to operate a car and the selling of knives is "controlled" to some degree and neither of them have the primary purpose of applying a positive punishment.

I think of it more like when they banned smacking your kids. Some people will use positive physical punishment with restraint and no harm comes of it but a lot of people will damage their kids by hitting them, sometimes severely, so for the sake of harm reduction we get a total ban on it. Some people will of course still hit their children (or buy shock collars) but at least it's harder to do and a statement is being made that they are not necessarily safe or harmless.

ETA: I have no real dog in this fight, so to speak, just a casual interest in dog training. So this is an "outsiders" point of view really.

Children and dogs should not be compared in regards to behaviour and correction imo.

 

[ester]

Well the FDA overturned their previous ruling last week so it's ok to use electric shocks on kids again.

 

[Blazingsaddles]

Well the FDA overturned their previous ruling last week so it's ok to use electric shocks on kids again.

Federal Appeals Court overturned the FDAs ban.

 

[ester]

quite