Controversial post about horse chiropractors.....

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melaniemarks

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I would be really interested to know what you all think about "back people"??
Firstly, is a chiropractor more qualified than a Mctimoney thrapist?
Can a person really manipulate a horses bones (which are massive) or have I missed the point completely??
Reason for asking, there is a horse at my yard , which has been unsound on and off for over a year. The owner is a really nice person, who I know only wants to do the best for her horse, but in all the time she's been unsound has never got the vet out. Instead she gets " the back lady " out. When there was no improvement with the first back lady, she got another one out. They are both Mctomoney trained. Then after that the "light therapist" came. Then it was the LT and the BL together.. Anyway the upshot is, the mare is still not quite sound. Surely you would have got the vet by now?? And bare in mind the light therapist charges £75 a time..I had my mares back checked after foaling before bringing her back into work and I have to say I'm a little cynical...cant say she was any better or worse after.
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So agree with you!
One of my daughters RI's told me about this wonderful friend of hers that could cure any horse with backs, unsoundness, bad behaviour, topline etc.
I did have her out 3 or 4 times at £50 a go and although pony seemed to find it very relaxing he by no means improved!
At the end of the day I felt I was paying for a bl..dy massage!
I always ask my vet's opinion now be it teeth, back, behaviour, way of going etc
 
Well I have the best of both worlds with this, our vet is also a hiro and does accupuncture
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It worked a treat on my mare when she had damaged her neck.
 
Didnt think they could treat without the vets approval!

I have used McTimoney for my dog to great effect, despite my vet at the time poo-pooing it, so wouldnt knock it. But something stops me from using it for my horse!
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Don't rate chiropractors, McTimoney or not. I had a McT to my boy last year and she charged me £40 for doing practically nothing. The horse hated her and I felt that all of the "manipulations" she did were for show and for my benefit. He was no different afterwards either.

I used to use a Physio before I moved down south, and now I have moved back home I had her out to my boy yesterday. She makes so much more sense, makes a point of checking things out with your vet before agreeing to treat, and doesn't talk in jargon. She left me with a plan of action, lots of exercises to do and could actually explain the issues my horse has scientifically. I found the the McT seemed to treat it all as just a nice massage for him. The McT told me he was evenly muscled...physio says he isn't due to an old pelvic injury and she can tell he has had uneven muscle development for some time (years probably) by how it looks and feels, and his reactions to her manipulations.

So physio every time for me.

Two or three people on my yard have an "equine massage therapist" out to their horses every few weeks. I don't see the point personally. Get a good physio and if there is anything wrong, get it treated. My physio has left me with a set of in hand and ridden exercises to do with my boy to make him more evenly muscled, and will see us again when / if he starts to find his work difficult again. With the physio I felt she gave me more of a rehabilitation plan rather than just one visit to massage him.
 
I hate it when people say they had someone click the pelvis/poll/etc 'back in'! Codswallop! If a horses atlas/axis was 'out' it would be dislocated and the horse would be paralysed or dead!
Muscles can be uneven each side and so they can be worked on but a horses spine can not be 'out' to the extent that most people think. The force required to move a horses pelvis is huge (falling at a gallop for example) and not just a small woman with a light stick!
To be fair i have never had a chiropractor but if i ever needed a 'back person' it would be a veterinary physiotherapist.
 
I have had great results with my Chiropractor. Charlie seems to put his pelvis out at least once a year, I can instantly feel it when I ride him. Chiro comes out, puts his pelvis and what ever else back in to place, give Charlie day or so off (depending on how much manipulating he had to do) and then he is as good as new.

ETA - If I felt that he hadn't improved after the Chiro had been I wouldn't hesitate to get the vet out.
 
Well for starters they should all be treating with vets permission anyway.


chiro- I believe they can manipulate some of the bones but not all, I think people don't realise that chiropractic treatments can actually be very muscular and not skeletal based. That said I have always preferred standard chiro for myself not mctimoney (found it made me ache lots after but not be much better) and therefore use the same for my horses.

My current chiro actually does me and my horse - normally on the same evening.

My vet recently admitted after my horse injured his shoulder that there was no point in him coming out for a 2nd time after initial treatment as he would only be able to tell me he was a bit better. but thought that getting my regular chiro (he had no idea who she was or check she was qual but do know him well so probably trusted me) to check him out and give him a massage was a good idea. She spotted a couple of differences in his movement to normal and suggested I gave him longer off ridden work and treated accordingly- he got a lovely massage

Normally mine sees her 6 monthly he has 2 issues- pelvis (used to have issues cantering on R leg) and left shoulder (now other one is injured!) these are ongoing and it would be pointless vet looking- def improvement after as we can canter on both reins now. However if he is not right on the current injured shoulder in another month I will be speaking to both vet and chiro again as don't think either are ideal in isolation but good together

I would certainly be getting vet out to an unsound horse if the first back visit did not solve the problem and def not leave it that long, it could be anything.
 
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I hate it when people say they had someone click the pelvis/poll/etc 'back in'! Codswallop! If a horses atlas/axis was 'out' it would be dislocated and the horse would be paralysed or dead!
Muscles can be uneven each side and so they can be worked on but a horses spine can not be 'out' to the extent that most people think. The force required to move a horses pelvis is huge (falling at a gallop for example) and not just a small woman with a light stick!
To be fair i have never had a chiropractor but if i ever needed a 'back person' it would be a veterinary physiotherapist.

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I had this exact conversation with my physio yesterday. She said my boy has had a pelvic injury at some point in the past (years ago) which has resulted in uneven muscle development over many years. This makes his pelvis look "out" but in reality this isn't possible. The muscle has just developed unevenly, mostly due to the way he has been holding himself. She did a lot of muscular manipulations, left me with a list of stretches to do every day and a list of in hand and ridden exercises to do to build up muscle in the places it is lacking, and encourage him to use the muscles he has been refusing to use - hence me asking about abdominals earlier.

There is no way a chiro or anyone else could "put his pelvis back in". All they can do is manipulate the muscles. I also don't believe his pelvis could be "out" in the strictest sense of the word.
 
the more I read the more I think it is generally down to the people doing it..... I haven't found a physio I liked (for me or horse!) and am on 2nd chiro who I believe, can explain issues, leaves me exercises (for me and horse) uses several techniques some manip (which i believe to be adjusting muscles not really bones) and massage checks with vet first or requires you to. will tell me if my horse is fine and doesn't need treatment (though this is normally mums not mine) -NB must point out clicks are generally air in muscles I think I was told a long time ago.

for me it is 4th chiro - over 10 years (I have issues and should def start pilates or something) they have all been slightly different and helped to a degree but my current one is the best
 
As I thought.. A proper chiro is probably better thatn McT. Still would get a vet to recommend first.. Lets face it, everyone, man or beast, feels better after a massage, but the effects are temporary. Incidently, a friend of a friend is doing a McT course in Devon. The course lasts only 6 months and she is then qualified to come out and charge folk £40 to look at their horse :
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'normal' BCA registered chiro will have done 4 years training on humans first - i know that they are not the same but........ and then do animals, similar to physio route. I still don't understand how mine manages to see the differences she does in my boy but she is right any sceptisism I had bout the horse side of things went when I had a horse who had always cantered on both reins fine stop cantering right apart from when jumping (adrenaline) and solved (it did take a while to reschool too).
 
Chiropractors including Mctim do not manipulate the bones and never profess to do that either. They manipulate the muscles surrounding the bones which have or are in spasm, this then releases the muscle to allow the bones to move freely again.

So for instance, if the axis or pelvis is deemed 'out' then a chiro will manipulate and free the muscle surrounding that bone which then allows free movement again.

So a horse can appear unlevel behind if a muscle is spasmed or contracted, the chiro simply releases that muscle spasm with quick deft movement to aloow the muscle to relax back and therefore the pelvis to become level as the muscle isn't tensing holding it awkwardly.
 
I use a qualified physio who looks at the horses in conjunction with my vet. I think she is really very thorough and helpful.

I have always been a bit skeptical about chiros for large animals as I do not think it is possible to manipulate such large bones, but whatever helps in each case I suppose.
 
The only person I would use is a qualified Equine Physio.

If hoss just wants a massage then they can have a good groom!
 
i really rate mctimoneys. i have been treated by them and it has made a huge difference. horses, ditto.
when my mare Katy needs doing, she cannot/will not halt square. it is very difficult to get her to square up behind, even in the stable moving her around to try to get her square. once she's been worked on (small manipulations etc), she immediately stands square every time, easily. also on the lunge - when she's right, every time i halt her on the lunge she squares up. when she has a problem, this doesn't happen.
there are charlatans in the horse world, and unqualified back people are some of the worst, but mctimoneys are not among them imho.
 
Hi all friends!

What an interesting subject!

I had an equine osteopath to my event horse, + he did an absolutely great job (he's in Nantwich, Cheshire).

I also had an unknown 'healer' from Lancs to another mare i have, + that was weird. He was recommended by my trainer's boyfriend at the time. He thumped her back, + she lurched, but was better afterwards...

I do acupuncture on humans for a living BTW (sadly, can't do on other folks' horses, cos of law, unless you sell them to me for 1p, then i sell them back for 1p, then apparently it's legal
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I have an open mind, + actually don't know what to believe in.

So it'd be interesting to hear your views on complementary medicine for our equine/canine/feline friends. Thanks, + all bests for Easter, BS x

And let's remember that science doesn't know it all. Wasn't it Sir Terry Wogan who said that 'have we got research to say that research is worth doing?!!'

The latest scientific research appears to be that 'itches are relieved by scratching', quoted in BBC News, 4/09)
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BS
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Now i believe in any muscular manipulation(pain caused from something else)(something pulled)!!
NO a person cannot manipulate a horses bone structure
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Yes a horse will improve muscular wise...but if it deeper than the muscle then no it wont
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Hi all,

May i quietly suggest acupuncture? Had very good results myself, but i'm not a vet, so maybe chat to your vet/local acupuncturists?

With my best wishes to all dear animals concerned, BS x
 
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Chiropractors including Mctim do not manipulate the bones and never profess to do that either. They manipulate the muscles surrounding the bones which have or are in spasm, this then releases the muscle to allow the bones to move freely again.


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I'm sorry but I had a chiro (mctimony) out about 12 days ago and she claimed to have 'popped' his pelvis back in. Being of the old school, where we never had chiros, I wasnt aware that i was being taken for a complete mug at the time, but realise so now.

Yes, he was more relaxed after the massage, but thinking back, when she lifted his hind leg higher than i would have thought comfortable and said "did you hear it pop back in?" (whilst i stood there confused thinking "err... no...." ) he probably needed the massage to get the feeling in his leg back.
I got no instruction as to wether I should turn him out or ride him (I had to phone her after to find out), and there was NO mention of my vet. She didnt even ask WHO my vet was.

So yes, Mctimoneys DO profess to manipulate bones and joints, and there seem to be lots of cowboys out there. BTW this lady was apparently fully qualified!!!!

I'm trying equine touch now, which I've seen good results from. A friend does it and I trust what she says, and what she does. At the end of the day if it;s just massage to ease tightness, then at least she's honest, and she never claims to be able to 'cure' anything.


I don't think i'd ever bother with a chiro again.
 
i have equine physio to see the working horses backs every 6-9months or if i feel they have a problem.
mine is very good and she felt slight soreness around the youngsters withers so i had her saddle checked and found it was very slightly too narrow for her.
 
I think the vets approval bit is not really much of guarantee as I use a very good vet and when I have had my horses done for whatever reason I just phoned up and said so and so is coming to do my horse and they said ok, the vet never saw either horse, but then they do know me very well so maybe that is why. I have had mixed results with 'back' people. I used a McT Chiro once when my usual qualified ACPAT (or whatever it is) physio was away. I used this Chiro as they did lectures at my uni and taught Chiro for a well known Chiro college. I felt completely ripped off, she didn't want to hear what I said I felt when I was riding my horse, was really rude and said nothing was wrong with my horse but it would be £40 please. My physio came back a week later from holiday and I got her to have a look and he was wrong as I thought, £25 later he was much happier.
I did a basic massage course whilst at uni so I do give him regular massage which he enjoys and use a pro every so often just to keep him loose.
 
Unfortunately, in the world of horses, there are a lot of cowboys out there who know how to pull the wool over the eyes of unsuspecting horse owners. Not just in the case of ''back therapists'' but in saddle fitting, instructors, dentists, etc...
And why not -they can make £50 quid by having a basic grasp of the concepts of anatomy, learn a few ''techniques'' and bobs your uncle you are ready to go. I cannot really comment on McTimony chiropractors or pure Chiropractors as I have neither been treated by, or have a proper understanding of how they work. However, I have seen a McTim in action on a friends horse - yes she was fairly competent in my eyes, but many of the techniques she used did not actually look like they acheived much, and I am afraid when questioned she could not really give me an adequate answer
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I think Chiropractors work on the premise that the spine is the root of body dysfunction, and therefore manipulate the spine to promote self healing and a return to balance. I dont know what their own theories are behind this.
However, as an undergraduate Osteopath I think I would like to add my own comments about Osteopathy!! I am currently doing a 4 year course in Osteopathy (human) and it is as much theory based as it is practical. We learn in great detail anatomy, physiology, pathology, biomechanics, neurology, embryolgy and a hell of a lot more. In addition to this we learn all the techniques we will need to formulate a diagnosis and treatment plan. Not just cracking backs, which unfortunately we are associated with, but a lot of articulatory techniques, ways to specifically target certain soft tissue structures, and ways to treat the internal organs.
I could ramble on for hours about this but I will save you the boredom...! Basically we are taught a huge amount of knowledge before we are let loose on patients!
After the human course I will go on to do the Animal Osteopathy course (hopefully!). This will build on the four years experience and knowledge that I will have already gained, take the concepts and apply them to the equine/canine/feline body. After all they are not actually that different once you get your head round the basic anatomy!
What I am trying to say is that it is up to the horse owner to do as much research they can about the therapy they are looking at to treat their horse, not just get someone because they are local and/or cheap. Things that work for one person may not work for another. Not saying that Osteopathy is better than all those other therapies out there, but just wanted to give an insight to how much knowledge I think a therapist should have before they are let loose on the human/equine body.
 
After 10 years of watching these various chiro's work on sport horses,I dont really believe in them any more- the final straw for me was when this so called 'top chiropractor' who usually treats horses worth millions of pounds, said that this horse ( not mine) was OK. The horse was the most royally f***ed horse you have ever seen, severe severe muscle wastage, and a displaced hind leg, could hardly walk, and yes, the guy said it was OK. shocked.
Have had McTimoneys out to my horse and theyve said the horse has this or that out, and theyve put it back in place, and the horse has felt absolutely no different/looked no different afterwards.

The only guy for me is someone who is a trained Osteopath, but also a healer, and he is amazing. Horses are just sooo soft and supple, easy to ride afterwards. He sorted me out as well as I used to have real problems walking as a teenager and I swear by him.
 
A friends horse, that she keeps at livery was having probs with lameness and had started bucking and napping, YO told her she didn't need the vet but the 'back lady' would sort it, 'back lady' told her to ride the horse through it!! Unfortunately she did as she was told and was promptly dumped, eventually she did call the vet out who diagnosed a hock prob and perscribed 6 wks box rest. The vet who came to vet our pony reckons it does seem to have got very 'fashionable' to have horses backs 'done', they start stopping or having poles down and rather than look at the rider it is obviously the horses back. If this is right or not i don't know.
 
I had a chiro out for shadow a year after his broken hock and 2 months into re-breaking him. The Chiro asked me not to let me anything about what I thought was wrong initially, but just allow him to wach shadow walk, stand and turn round- within 15 min he told me he had problems with his left hind- no bearing in mind shadow was 100% sound/level/happy etc I was impressed.
We found severe spasm in his bum muscles (cant remember what they are called) due to him trying not to aggrevate his injury and a cousre of three threatments releived it. How do I know it worked? Because I could feel the difference in his striding and my Instructor rode him 4 months later and told me he had the swingiest trot she'd ever ridden! Yes it cost me £120 in total but it worked. There are some out there who find nothing wrong with the horse but dont want to loose out on the £40 they have driven over for so 'find' something wrong with them. Shadow broke out into a sweat over the muscles we manipulated- apparently common when the spasm is released- i try to look for that in my current horses if they have someone out.
 
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