Controversy at Olympia...

I think common sense should of been used. We all saw Bertram's round,if he was kicking and flapping all over, I'm sure this whole thing would have a much different outcome, but he rode beautifully, showed everyone how it's done and set the standard well and truly. We have seen the pics, the horse had small rubs on it's sides, everyone who knows anything about horses knows how sensitive chestnuts are. Had the horse of been pouring with blood then yes, we would all have a different opinion again. The whole thing is a shambles, he was robbed of a well deserved first place and the fact Michael Whitaker gave him the first place rosette and all his fellow competitors said they couldn't barely see a mark on the horse says it all really
 
kassieg said:
Your leg position is always perfect over 1m60 is it?

He rode fantastically there is no 2 ways about it! I've seen terrible riding all week & he is disqualified.

Having ridden a chestnut who I had to cake in vasaline when she was clipped because she got rubbed so easily from boots & spurs I can see how easily it happens! There was a guy in the puissance who had actually left patches on the sides where his legs sat because he obviously had the same issue on his chestnut.

Such a shame for the sport !
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I don't know how my leg position would be at 1.6m but that is really irrelevant. Have a look at the leg position of others who regularly jump that height - they seem to manage to keep their spurs off. Of course, anyone can take a jump less well than usual but the majority of photos of BA show this as his jumping style (along with several of him being very heavy handed).

I used to manage over 4' regularly (not as high, I know!) on my clipped chestnut TB, with spurs and without causing injury. I used ball point spurs and wouldn't have dreamed of using anything else on a thin skinned horse, just as you took measures to look after yours.

Is it really too much to ask, that riders at the top ensure their mounts are protected from injury too? Whether that is achieved by addressing leg position, wearing less harsh spurs, not clipping or greasing? Until riders and their teams take measures to ensure their horses comfort, any injury for which a rider is culpable should lead to DQ.

MagicMelon said:
I really dont get why ALL of them wear spurs anyway. Hopefully this sort of thing will encourage less spur usage. No matter how nice his round, if there was blood then thats totally unacceptable and the right decision was made, no matter what Geoff Billington sprouts off!
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Agreed.
 
Just had a look at the photo on Anna Ross's FB page. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153501805323025&set=pcb.10153501820963025&type=3&theater. Just below half way down the LH side there is a triangular mark. I am guessing this is the issue? That picture does look like a nick where the skin has pinged apart. Am I seeing this wrong?
I watched the round and he rode beautifully, but, and I mean but. If that is a wound albeit a small one should it be ignored?
I would really like to be proved wrong.
 
The fact that there are clear marks on the horses sides in the photos all over the internet, he has therefore used the spurs inapproporiately. Spurs should never leave marks, pretty simple. If marks ARE left then the rider is causing them in whatever way or the horse IS in fact very thin skinned however then those spurs shouldn't be used. I dont know why there's been so much fuss about this, the rule is there for everyone to see. The fact he seems to be a liked guy, did a nice round and had "won" a grand prix and is now very disappointed should make no difference. It doesn't matter that he LOOKED to be riding so nicely, we all know it would be pretty easy to hide digging your heels in. The FEI can never win. I stand by my question of WHY every single showjumper seems to wear spurs nowadays?

With regard to comparing it to endurance, we can't really as we all know the endurance world is having big welfare / rule dodging issues.
 
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jrp204 said:
Just had a look at the photo on Anna Ross's FB page. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153501805323025&set=pcb.10153501820963025&type=3&theater. Just below half way down the LH side there is a triangular mark. I am guessing this is the issue? That picture does look like a nick where the skin has pinged apart. Am I seeing this wrong?
I watched the round and he rode beautifully, but, and I mean but. If that is a wound albeit a small one should it be ignored?
I would really like to be proved wrong.
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Actually no, I don't think I saw anyone not swinging their legs back in the world cup on Sunday.
 
Wimbles said:
I watched Bertram's jump off round and thought it was really inspiring and enjoyed it immensely. The horse and he were an incredible partnership and no amount of rough riding will ever make a horse try for you like that horse did for him.

Obviously I don't know the full story but I was quite saddened to hear the many people criticising the stewards. They are given a job to do and they are there to report on horse welfare. If it is a spur mark then these things can and do happen but I personally believe that it would be a sad day if this was just completely ignored.

I do think that Bertram should not have been disqualified but Olympia could maybe have taken a similar approach to racing and given some sort of ban or fine if indeed the horse's welfare had been compromised.
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Totally agree with this.
Stewards are doing their duty and who are they to draw a line on how much of a mark is acceptable.
My view is that disqualification is too harsh and that a warning system could be in place or similar.
 
The rules are there to be adhered to and applied accordingly. And that is why there is a ground jury with a vet in attendance. It is a collective decision. The rules were applied in this case. Perhaps the decision could have been better explained at the time.
I don't agree with a public flogging though. There seem to be a lot of 'holier than thou' commenting on FB, twitter etc, those suggesting they would never mark their horses or that BA was a rough rider. Clipped horses do mark easily but from the fuss being made you'd think he'd gouged his horses sides out and the poor creature was on its last legs. Some perspective is needed people.

Personally I am far more concerned about the novice riders I see out at dressage comps, riding their fat unresponsive cobs round a walk trot test, flapping away with their spurs and whip.
 
KautoStar1 said:
The rules are there to be adhered to and applied accordingly. And that is why there is a ground jury with a vet in attendance. It is a collective decision. The rules were applied in this case. Perhaps the decision could have been better explained at the time.
I don't agree with a public flogging though. There seem to be a lot of 'holier than thou' commenting on FB, twitter etc, those suggesting they would never mark their horses or that BA was a rough rider. Clipped horses do mark easily but from the fuss being made you'd think he'd gouged his horses sides out and the poor creature was on its last legs. Some perspective is needed people.

Personally I am far more concerned about the novice riders I see out at dressage comps, riding their fat unresponsive cobs round a walk trot test, flapping away with their spurs and whip.
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Too true! It is a very fine line the stewards have to tread and it would have had considerable input from the vet. However in slightly different circumstances a lot would have him hung drawn and quartered for leaving those marks
 
'It doesn't matter that he LOOKED to be riding so nicely, we all know it would be pretty easy to hide digging your heels in.'
Er, really? I don't think so. (Unless of course it's a hairy cob to camouflage it)
and yes, Kautostar, you'd think the world was full of brilliant riders, far better than Bertram Allen, to judge by some posts. Funnily enough, I don't see them..........
 
The rule is that blood on the flanks is disqualification. The or applies to excessive use that does not cause marks. Under the current rules once a horse is marked to the extent it bleeds there is no option not to disqualify.
 
Rules are rules, and don't forget, the Stewards at Olympia are highly trained in rules and welfare. There must have been enough cause for this call to be made. He did however, ride a blinding round, one of the best I've ever watched on TV. I think it's a shame that all riders have to wear spurs and have their horse's heads tied up with all sorts of gadgets these days just to get results. I used to be a BS Judge some years ago but gave it up when I realised that I cared more for the horse's welfare than I did for the show jumping.
 
In my opinion for what it's worth i thought he rode a masterclass of a round. No yanking and pulling, just lovely and flowing. The horse looked happy all the way round. Had he been visibly digging his spurs in to get the horse going, yes definitely disqualification but he must have just caught the horse wrong. A few riders last night were bouncing all over their horses backs, that to me is more if a welfare issues at that level.
 
the jump off is just on repeat on the red button, I kept a really good eye on that side but other than his legs mostly ending up by his numnah (which for a sjer was actually big enough, and understandable at that height) I couldn't see anything untoward.
 
Daniel Bluman has posted the photo without a filter on it, and imo, the spur marks look even less noticeable without a filter on them that adjusts/changes the colour.

https://www.facebook.com/blumandani...9384734763385/928129537222233/?type=3&theater

looks like Bertram was most likely unlucky in that he caught the horse accidentally who had been clipped short/recently and the horse felt it and the 3 tiny marks showed up. If the horse had been darker they may not have been noticed, but unfortunately for Bertram they were. No, he is not a horse abuser, he has just happened to catch his horse and for it to be recorded in a big televised class. I don't know if it's on both, or one side of his horse.
 
It's a shame he had spurs on. On such a forward going horse I wouldn't have thought it was needed.
Feel sorry for him as it did look a lovely round. However rules are rules I guess and they can't change them.
 
A lot of competitions have a no tolerance rule for blood, even if the horse has just bitten its tongue or whatever. I actually think this is essential. While I don't think he used the spurs excessively, it was probably a momentary accident, the photos don't lie, and you need to apply the same rules to everybody. Public opinion of equestrian sport isn't always great, and if you add 'animal cruelty' into the mix, that will only result in less televised SJ, less funding, removal from the Olympics etc etc etc. Presumably they are making an example of him.

I don't think leaving spur marks on your horse should be acceptable. I don't think blue tongues or bloody mouths are either. Apparently others disagree.
 
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a lot do, not all FEI sports do - endurance, eventing and driving do not have zero tolerance for blood. If blood is automatically a horse welfare issue then surely they should all have it. Of course blood is also not really directly correlated to pain so..

They aren't even where he would have used his leg if he wanted to! Also not where you would automatically leave unclipped patches and am not sure a belly band would quite reach it either.

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I have caused spur marks on my chap, he also gets girth rubs (the amount of dead sheep on this chap suggests he is perhaps similar, he is ginger :p. I was pretty distraught at the former but have found with experience with him that he is better clipped and with spurs - he is more easily rubbed with winter coat and heels/leg contact. It is a big penalty for a completely unintenional slip up (I don't think a blue tongue etc is ever unintentional).
 
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ester said:
They aren't even where he would have used his leg if he wanted to! Also not where you would automatically leave unclipped patches and am not sure a belly band would quite reach it either.
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possibly caused by his lower leg swinging back so far - an amazing round I agree but I did notice his leg swinging back over fences, a lot
 
Some horses, without question, are thin skinned. Such horses will mark easily, I'd have thought. The rider should have been aware of this and worn spurs which weren't so likely to mark the animal.

It was desperately sad to see such a top class round cancelled, BUT …….. Rules is Rules, and without those rules then the blatant disregard for the welfare of the horse in sport, would only grow.

The disqualification, for the betterment of horse welfare, must stand, however it may not really be justified in this specific case.

Alec.
 
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ester said:
a lot do, not all FEI sports do - endurance, eventing and driving do not have zero tolerance for blood. If blood is automatically a horse welfare issue then surely they should all have it. Of course blood is also not really directly correlated to pain so..

They aren't even where he would have used his leg if he wanted to! Also not where you would automatically leave unclipped patches and am not sure a belly band would quite reach it either.

12391044_928129537222233_5085293589158302211_n.jpg


I have caused spur marks on my chap, he also gets girth rubs (the amount of dead sheep on this chap suggests he is perhaps similar, he is ginger :p. I was pretty distraught at the former but have found with experience with him that he is better clipped and with spurs - he is more easily rubbed with winter coat and heels/leg contact. It is a big penalty for a completely unintenional slip up (I don't think a blue tongue etc is ever unintentional).
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Eventing does have zero tolerance for blood in dressage and SJ phases horse on CC will be stopped and checked by the Vet and its their decision. Not sure why everybody is defending it ! He contravened the rules for whatever reason, it may seam harsh to some but rules are rules maybe we shouldnt have any.
 
popsdosh said:
Eventing does have zero tolerance for blood in dressage and SJ phases horse on CC will be stopped and checked by the Vet and its their decision. Not sure why everybody is defending it ! He contravened the rules for whatever reason, it may seam harsh to some but rules are rules maybe we shouldnt have any.
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Yes this is the thing. I agree it seems harsh BUT if those are the rules then we have to abide by them. We can't say "oh well it was only a little bit of blood, so it doesn't matter".
 
NeverEver said:
possibly caused by his lower leg swinging back so far - an amazing round I agree but I did notice his leg swinging back over fences, a lot
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A lot of top level riders seem to swing their leg back over fences, not all to the same level as Bertram's always does, but hey, we are not all perfect.

He has most likely caught the horse by accident, no one is suggesting it was a deliberate act of abuse and he hasn't had any reports of bad horsemanship so far, so I think it is only fair to give him the benefit of the doubt this time and assume it was accidental and the marks have shown up on a horse with a recently clipped horse.

The person who spotted it must have a very good eye, and he was rightfully disqualified under the rules. However, people are allowed to question the rules, and how it was carried out at the show by both the media behind the scenes, commentators and the general confusion there seemed to be.

I do feel like an example will be made of Bertram because he has been such a high profile 'rising star' and is making a name for himself atm, whether this is fair or not, I'm not sure, because there have definitely been worse incidents swept under the mat at top level that haven't been televised live and been caused by riders who aren't necessarily as well known.

I still stand by my thoughts of maybe it's time to revisit the rules and edit them, especially when riders who are very heavy handed, or have other questionable techniques and practices, are allowed to do so without any repercussions. I can imagine the Italian horses that had the man who rode round without any elasticity in his contact, and landed on their backs with a thump, will be a lot sorer in the morning than a horse with 3 very small, most likely very shallow, grazes.

I think the way the showjumping community has come together in defence of Bertram Allen is admirable, he's obviously very well liked and respected and it's desperately sad to see a big class and show ended in such a way, leaves a bitter, sour taste in the mouth.

Not impressed with the footage the BBC showed where they were trying to eavesdrop, and you could see poor Bertram looking very confused and upset as he seemed to not know what was going on either. I'm surprised they left it until prize giving to tell him, surely they should have let him know sooner than that, so he at least didn't look so shocked on camera?
 
no problem with the rules being enforced but the findings should always be made clear to the rider at the time and not a few minutes before a prizegiving. the rules should also be consistant and be applied in all disciplines. I am thinking back to the american rider who at 2 fei shows had blood coming from the horses mouth x-c from the bit/noseband? pinching but was allowed to continue because it was not considered serious. they really do need to take out the part of the rule that says "Blood on Horses may be an indication of abuse of the Horse and must be reviewed case by case by the Ground Jury" because it seems that its leaving people like Bertram who have not fought the horse being penalised and others are allowed to continue when (using the above example of the american lady) the horse has obvious blood coming from the mouth but because it stops bleeding is not serious enough for the stewards to say disqualification. the fei really do need to clarify if blood on the body after a quiet ride = elim or if it = discretion and a warning
 
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Clannad48 said:
Geoff Billington's comments on FB are interesting....... to say the least
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Geoff Billington should be ashamed of himself. When you start calling people *********g idiots on social media you loose the moral high ground imo. Totally disrespectful to all those stewards who give up their time foc across the country week in week out to make sure the shows that he attends run smoothly. If anyone should be disqualified it's Mr Billington.
 
I watched the round and thought how well the horse jumped. Yes, you can see marks on the horse. No-one here saw the marks in person, the ground jury/stewards did and therefore applied the rules. Harsh but at the end of the day it's a reminder to all concerned.

I am sure Bertram didn't go into the arena with the intention of damaging his horse and I wish him success in the future as his forward riding was lovely to watch. He will learn from this experience.

I saw far worse riding IMO from others than him. Perhaps a warning system needs to be in place too to prevent further embarrassing situations as witnessed by many watching on television.
 
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