Controversy at Olympia...

[ladyt25]

I do not ride at any sort of 'level' although did a bit when I was younger. A lot of horses do seem to have a lot of metal in their mouths but then some have hardly anything. I would like to think riders use the tack that suits the horse. They are all individuals and certain tack is there for safety of both horse and rider as, an excitable, keen horse may require certain levels of 'control' in the form of bridle wear than another. This makes things 'safer' for both horse and rider. The last thing you need is an over-keen horse hurtling into a fence!

Spurs are to enhance / make for a more definite/precise aid. They are not 'harsh' but mean a leg aid can be given more gently than a 'kick' of the heels but gets a quicker reaction. However, IF they are used incorrectly (ie the rider does kick) then they can cause injury.

 

[NiceNeverNaughty]

i dont ride at any level haha, far from it. I had a very forward going and strong horse who going XC was bitted up and wore a martingale and grakle noseband. I also rode in small spurs as he was a spooky boy with a sod of a stop on him and they enabled to push a bit of a turbo button at the last and crucial moment if he was about to say no and land us both in a heap.

 

[moosea]

Just a question for those who ride at a 'level'; When I see the top riders, holding on to horses with the most surprising arrangement of ironmongery in their mouths, and an array of strap-on aids which have me grateful that I don't ride, and then considering that most of these high octane horses are being 'held-back' only to be released at the right moment, then what is the point to an aid, a spur which is likely to only up the anti?

Genuine question, and I'd like to know the answer. When I'm working a serious and hard going dog, the last thing that I need to do is kick its arse and bring on a lunatic!

Alec.

I don't ride a 'a level' Alec, but spurs are supposed to assist in giving fine tuned aids. While it may appear that riders are 'kicking it's arse' and holding it in, they are actually creating and holding impulsion, without which the horse would flatten over the fences.

The differing bits all act differently on the horses head. Some bits use pressure on the bars of the mouth, some on the roof of the mouth, others act to influence the position of the horses head. Most bits do more than one thing.

 

[popsdosh]

I do not ride at any sort of 'level' although did a bit when I was younger. A lot of horses do seem to have a lot of metal in their mouths but then some have hardly anything. I would like to think riders use the tack that suits the horse. They are all individuals and certain tack is there for safety of both horse and rider as, an excitable, keen horse may require certain levels of 'control' in the form of bridle wear than another. This makes things 'safer' for both horse and rider. The last thing you need is an over-keen horse hurtling into a fence!

Spurs are to enhance / make for a more definite/precise aid. They are not 'harsh' but mean a leg aid can be given more gently than a 'kick' of the heels but gets a quicker reaction. However, IF they are used incorrectly (ie the rider does kick) then they can cause injury.

You are running the risk of contradicting yourself if you go to the 'tackroom ' near the end of the thread you will see a picture of the horse with 3 nicks and a couple of clear wheals caused by the spurs maybe that may alter your take on things.

 

[SpringArising]

The ruling was correct. Perhaps if a rider cannot guarantee that a spur won't cause bleeding, they shouldn't wear them.

There are marks.

There is blood.

How much blood does one need to have caused to leak from a creature before it is 'wrong'?

On this forum, I repeatedly read about how people are against rollkur and other forms of cruelty etc and the comments generally veer towards "the riders should be banned" or "something needs to be done about it". In this case, the stewards did take action and appear now to be being criticised for it. Perhaps the marks on the horse were accidental, but you can't let one person get away with it and then take action against another one. Now that would be unfair! The stewards were doing the job they are there to do and took action accordingly.

Completely agree. I struggle to see how some people can justify drawing blood on a horse in the name of winning, TBH. Certainly makes you realise that not everyone has the best interest of the horse at heart. I would be MORTIFIED if I ever drew blood from riding in spurs.

 

[hackneylass2]

Stewards did the right thing. Accidental or not, if you ride a sensitive skinned horse in spurs in a highly competitive environment, 'accidents' can happen. Spur of the moment?
I would say that a lot of horses competing at this level don't need to be ridden in spurs if they are highly tuned anyway. Like in football, it's money that is creating the 'machine' mentality. Maybe I am just old?

 

[hairycob]

I do wonder how often spurs are worn as just "part of the riding uniform". I went to a TREC training session a couple of months ago. I was the only TREC enthusiast pin my group, the others were all dressage riders out for a bit if fun. Competed at a decent level, all wore spurs. I was a bit surprised that they felt the need for that sort of activity on a well schooled horse.

 

[Orca]

I find spurs to be a useful bit of kit. Because they don't touch the flank unless employed, even when worn they aren't necessarily in use. It shouldn't be any different from carrying a whip. They are just there if needed and in the very distracting, high energy atmosphere of high level competition, I can see where they could be useful in generating a timely response to aids for turning, etc.

But - they have to be used correctly, kindly and without causing harm. Maybe the spur length and tip type should be confined to something effective but not potentially painful, if some riders can't effectively monitor their own safe use of them? I only use ball points and only ever have. Personal choice. I want to nudge, not stab!

 

[Holly Hocks]

Like in football, it's money that is creating the 'machine' mentality.

So totally agree with this sentiment.

 

[Mooseontheloose]

I think he has done a fantastic job with a horse which had rather lost the plot, don't think if he'd treated like a machine it would be jumping like it is for him.

 

[SpringArising]

I find spurs to be a useful bit of kit. Because they don't touch the flank unless employed, even when worn they aren't necessarily in use. They are just there if needed

Unfortunately that's just not true given the amount of SJers/people in general who seem to have a very unstable lower leg.

ETA - Useful comparison in the difference a good lower leg will make to the harshness of the spurs:

Bertram - involuntarily digging them in over each fence:

Beezie:

IMO Bertram should not be allowed to use them until he's sorted his leg out.

 

[Orca]

I think he has done a fantastic job with a horse which had rather lost the plot, don't think if he'd treated like a machine it would be jumping like it is for him. It was a shame, unfortunate, sad and all these things but not a brutal or cruel act and he did not leave 'stab' holes in the horse's side.

No, he 'scraped' holes and wheals into the horses flank. A fantastic job? No.

 

[Orca]

I find spurs to be a useful bit of kit. Because they don't touch the flank unless employed, even when worn they aren't necessarily in use. It shouldn't be any different from carrying a whip. They are just there if needed and in the very distracting, high energy atmosphere of high level competition, I can see where they could be useful in generating a timely response to aids for turning, etc.

But - they have to be used correctly, kindly and without causing harm. Maybe the spur length and tip type should be confined to something effective but not potentially painful, if some riders can't effectively monitor their own safe use of them? I only use ball points and only ever have. Personal choice. I want to nudge, not stab!

Unfortunately that's just not true given the amount of SJers/people in general who seem to have a very unstable lower leg.


IMO Bertram should not be allowed to use them until he's sorted his leg out.

As I said, they need to be used correctly. My first post on this thread was to point out BA's leg position over jumps and on another thread, I suggested that someone should have addressed this with him before now, so yes, I agree!

 

[asterope]

Bertram - involuntarily digging them in over each fence:

He's hardly "digging" his spurs in - they're flush with the horse's side. A LOT of riders at that level swing their legs back over the fence to some extent and I hardly think it's indicative of a particularly unstable lower leg (over fences that large).

Ludger Beerbaum -

John Whitaker -

Scott Brash -

Simon Delestre -

You get the picture.

 

[peaceandquiet1]

I can't believe this is an isolated occurrence. I don't mean with Bertram Allen, but if he managed to damage his horse with his fluent riding there must be other incidents where there is spur damage in SJ in general. Or did we just hear about it because he was about to win an important class which was being televised?

 

[Mooseontheloose]

I think you can find photos of anyone in any equestrian sport in a less than perfect position.
Let's have some lovely photos of posters on this forum in their wonderful riding positions. Preferably over something more than 75cm. Obviously there are some realy experts out there. I do hope we see them at Olympia next year - jumping not shopping that is.

 

[popsdosh]

I think you can find photos of anyone in any equestrian sport in a less than perfect position.
Let's have some lovely photos of posters on this forum in their wonderful riding positions. Preferably over something more than 75cm. Obviously there are some realy experts out there. I do hope we see them at Olympia next year - jumping not shopping that is.

Doesnt change the fact his horse had three punture wounds on its flank it does not matter if you look pretty or not the blood is the damming evidence and the others that didnt look pretty managed to avoid putting holes in their horses.
I dont see how anybody can defend those marks in any circumstances at best they are careless!

 

[popsdosh]

He's hardly "digging" his spurs in - they're flush with the horse's side. A LOT of riders at that level swing their legs back over the fence to some extent and I hardly think it's indicative of a particularly unstable lower leg (over fences that large).

Ludger Beerbaum -

John Whitaker -

Scott Brash -

Simon Delestre -

You get the picture.

The biggest difference none of those show bleeding punture wounds.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

In racing, any horse with even a Bead of blood on its skin due to whip use will lead to the jock called up before the stewards. Spurs are not allowed [I think it will be in T&C]
One can argue that spurs are only used to abuse the horse, and should be banned. I think they should be....
I don't think lower leg in a high position really makes any difference to the horse, what is vital is that the rider is in balance with the horse,

 

[Orca]

In racing, any horse with even a Bead of blood on its skin due to whip use will lead to the jock called up before the stewards. Spurs are not allowed [I think it will be in T&C]
One can argue that spurs are only used to abuse the horse, and should be banned. I think they should be....
I don't think lower leg in a high position really makes any difference to the horse, what is vital is that the rider is in balance with the horse,

I don't think the high leg position is the issue but that swing, coupled with the toe turned out and heel dug in as he jumps, has led to harm by his spurs. Spurs capable of gouging should be banned, yes. There are styles incapable of gouging though and if they are to be banned then whips should be too. Both are capable of bruising if used improperly.

 

[SpringArising]

Let's have some lovely photos of posters on this forum in their wonderful riding positions. Preferably over something more than 75cm. Obviously there are some realy experts out there. I do hope we see them at Olympia next year - jumping not shopping that is.

Not that argument again! Doesn't matter how high the rest of us jump - I don't think any of us leave blood on our horses.

 

[JayCeeme]

I bet he wishes he had you to teach him! In the first photo he is riding a grey and if the spurs were digging in it would show up in the second the spurs are not being used. Armchair critics should stick to armchairs.

 

[JayCeeme]

Nonsense that horse has gone well and won with many riders including Jessica Botham Ben Maher Chloe Aston Swedish Rider (forgotten her name). As for losing the plot he has done nothing but win and been placed including winning three cars a month or so ago.

 

[popsdosh]

Nonsense that horse has gone well and won with many riders including Jessica Botham Ben Maher Chloe Aston Swedish Rider (forgotten her name). As for losing the plot he has done nothing but win and been placed including winning three cars a month or so ago.

However he broke the rules so end of ! There is no mitigating circumstances that mean it gets dropped ,he cut the horse with his spurs

FGS let the lad get on with his life he will recover and be wiser for it!

 

[teapot]

Seems a shame that this is still rumbling on when Irish Sj has bigger things to move on from ie they won't be going to Rio...

 

[pip6]

I truly disgusting thing that I think should be highlighted beyond this thread is the total lack of a blood rule in endurance (and yes I am an EGB member) because all to often they occur to horses ridden from certain countries who pour money into the FEI. In yet another example of the FEI looking the other way to get money, this is something which I personally have witnessed. I know of a vet at a major EGB ride who was going to eliminate a horse due to large amounts of blood in her mouth due to poor riding, but was told her couldn't as the horse was being ridden by a high level sheik. Incidents as this are not uncommon! It should be a blanket rule across ALL FEI sports. Please help keep pressure on the FEI to take control of endurance back out the hands of the money givers. You should not be able to buy/cheat your way to success.