Convince me that you can have a comp horse NOT go wrong?

[TarrSteps]

It's not a simple task at all! I've worked for a couple of genius buyers and breeders who have procured/produced horses for the highest level and I would not dream of thinking I could do either as well. The years I spent going in circles, they spent learning that. So I would either get them to find/breed me something or I would accept that I'm going to make a lot more mistakes.

I was just thinking about this as I was going around in circles. . .a big part of staying sane about these things is recognising that often you will make mistakes and to try to recognise and hopefully rectify the problems asap. And also that other people will by lucky - or not - and that isn't really anything to do with you and your situation.

Re getting advice. It is ALWAYS a balance. Take this scenario. . . Horse A has knock on effects from an injury in his youth that was probably not addressed optimally at the time and has left him crooked. Vet, trimmer, physio and pro rider have got him as good as he's likely to be. Catch is, he is not a pro horse. The owner is not as strong and straight and, while trying hard, can only improve so fast. So the more owner rides, the more crooked the horse is, and the more inevitable it is that he will break.

What do you do? What's 'best'? For whom? The reality is the owner will try hard to improve, the support crew will try to support, and everyone will keep their fingers crossed the horse lasts until the rider gets good enough to ride him in a way that keeps him sound. Same as it ever was!

 

[timetoride]

Hmm... Buy the right horse -if only that was simple! I'm absolutely in the "desperately sad about having a broken horse" group right now and desperate to learn. I observe and am fanatical about every little thing with the horses legs/ how they are going... had vets, saddle checks, physio, shiatsu, trainers etc but still a whole bunch of lame horses- like I said before often after only a couple of weeks of owning/ pretty much just broke in hacking for 3 months with current one with proper walk for x amount of time then trot etc- did one clear round show a few weeks ago at about 2 foot high! A few days ago found she's got serious bone problems. Now this horse is only 7 and if she can't cope with that work clearly her genes should NOT be passed on to future generations of competition horses but she has already had 3 foals which some poor unsuspecting people are going to buy in the future saying "look at his/her amazing SJ breeding on the stallion sides of its mother and father" but not knowing about the actual mother! I guess at some point (maybe abroad where she had the first 2) someone decided they didn't want to make a loss on her completely with this bone problem so would breed from her instead... and we wonder why there are so many lame horses so young and blame ourselves (well I have been and still do having been crying for days now) then reading this thread makes me feel even worse like I didn't take enough care of her. Or ride her well enough to keep her straight for example as in above post. But how can this have happen just hacking out! With one of the horses (not the most recent) I had I even lost a stone in weight to 6.5 in a desperation to keep as little weight on her as possible while bringing her back into work after surgery- it didn't even work she never came right! And guess what shes doing now back with her previous owner who I thought she was going to just retire at... having foals- ahhh!! However much knowledge you learn (which I do still want to) how can I possibly know whether the horse is going to show up its weaknesses later on in work/ when broken in, especially when I can't exactly tell myself I know more than what the trained vet sees at the vetting when I buy it!

If competition horses can't stand up to the work we ask them to do for an hour a day with days off, without more care/obsession/bucket-loads of money than what so many of us give to keep them running, then surely something has gone wrong with their design/ artificial selection. For starters I think mares should be more regulated like stallions are for breeding- not just say oh well she's gone lame lets breed from her, to encourage stronger/better designed horses rather than the other way round and get weaker populations in each generations. And secondly yes are they just getting too big now? I don't have any, and don't know if there is any, proof to say that ponies break less but it seems that way to me- my shared 10.2 jumped until his late 20's and 12.2 was jumping 90cms fit and well with me aged 20, then all the nightmares with horses started!
Or is it just that what we ask them to do is unnatural? (not that natural is 'right' necessarily) but having said that mine is probably flying round the field having a great time far faster than I've ever told her to go when riding...

I apologise if this has got into just ranting! I didn't mean anything 'against' anyone I'm just very depressed right now with a perfect temperament but unrideable horse and my 3rd year uni exams in a couple of weeks (maybe hence the evolution side to my ranting- just been doing some case studies on artificial selection in some dog breeds that's gone wrong too... don't get me started on that )

 

[Goldenstar]

On the subject of the good old days that someone mentained I agree of course they never existed stuff went on that would make your hair curl today.
But good things where I think ,that young horses where kept less furnished .
Much much more slow hacking was done and less time was spent schooling
Horses spent more time off and out unshod in huge fields in big groups .
But how do you apply that to the modern demands of sport .
And horses went lame all the time then as well . If I cast my mind back I can remember lots of people having disappointing disasters but it tended to over quicker because the vets could do less whereas now the vets can do so much and you sometimes seem be stuck in a cycle of trying to get ' x ' sound mode which is torture whereas in the old days' x ' got his shoes removed and shoved in a field for a year and you moved on to the next one .
Horses are bigger though and bigger horse take more time to produce I wonder if that's a factor.

 

[TarrSteps]

ttr, I don't think anyone is pointing fingers, we're just having a chat. As you yourself point out, if a horse has an inherited condition it's not really about the life it leads. Bad luck, I guess. (If you're talking about OCD, that's trickier. Some of the best performance lines have horses with it and I wouldn't imagine anyone breeding their beloved mare checks her out first so you're going to end up with a big pool of affected horses for the simple reason people want them, chips and all.)

 

[TarrSteps]

Re the amount of work. . . some of the soundest horses I've known have worked a lot, in intensity and/or amount. They may not have always been 'sound' from a clinical point of view, but they were functional and well in themselves with the proper care. Maybe many of us don't ask enough. . .

 

[Goldenstar]

Someone wise once told me never pay more for a horse than you are prepared to loose the day after you get it home.
But TTR post shows its not just about the money it's the disappointment to lose the dream to have to go back to the awful horse hunting when you thought you where though that for a while facing dealing with the lame one sometimes it is overwhelmingly rotten having horses.
Chin up TTR I am told its character building .

 

[Lolo]

Re the amount of work. . . some of the soundest horses I've known have worked a lot, in intensity and/or amount. They may not have always been 'sound' from a clinical point of view, but they were functional and well in themselves with the proper care. Maybe many of us don't ask enough. . .

I wonder if the soundness is because of the amount of work they do? The rider can continually influence and aid the straightness and the way the horse uses itself when they ride it, meaning muscle groups are kept active and strong and the horse can be continually 'improved' in its way of going and the normal kept because what is normal is known the best?

You see these great event horses going at 15+, and they're still sound and going well at 4*. I always wonder what these horses need to keep them on the road. Do they have steroid injections, bute-substitutes like Vetrofen, how are they worked and how often and who by... Things like that that you'll probably never learn about or how to replicate and use in your own system without experiencing it first hand. Which might be why the pros seem to manage it and us mere mortals struggle so much!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

I wonder if the soundness is because of the amount of work they do? The rider can continually influence and aid the straightness and the way the horse uses itself when they ride it, meaning muscle groups are kept active and strong and the horse can be continually 'improved' in its way of going and the normal kept because what is normal is known the best?

You see these great event horses going at 15+, and they're still sound and going well at 4*. I always wonder what these horses need to keep them on the road. Do they have steroid injections, bute-substitutes like Vetrofen, how are they worked and how often and who by... Things like that that you'll probably never learn about or how to replicate and use in your own system without experiencing it first hand. Which might be why the pros seem to manage it and us mere mortals struggle so much!

Nail.head.
If the rider can actively help the horse to use its body in the best way, with the least effort, it's a huge advantage. I do also think the grey area between too much work and not enough is probably smaller than we think.....the fine line between building strength and wearing the body out....

 

[Goldenstar]

Nail.head.
If the rider can actively help the horse to use its body in the best way, with the least effort, it's a huge advantage. I do also think the grey area between too much work and not enough is probably smaller than we think.....the fine line between building strength and wearing the body out....

I think this spot on knowing when to train harder and when to back of .
I think you need periods of more intense work followed by a 'recovery 'period when you let the muscles work less hard .

 

[Jesstickle]

God, I am thoroughly depressed now. I definitely don't know enough or have enough time, to keep a horse sound. Sigh. Where do I go for lessons?!

 

[Lulup]

Thank you to everyone who has answered - there are some really interesting viewpoints and plenty of food for thought.

I will add that I run my own small livery yard so my horses (and my liveries) live by a routine of my choosing, have individual turnout, are worked on a reasonable surface that is well maintained and are micro managed in accordance with my OCD tendencies. It's never as perfect as I'd like and would no doubt be better/easier if I had endless amounts of cash but there are regular visits from vet/trainers and i have a great team of highly qualified Physio/chiropractor/saddler together with a fantastic farrier who discusses every horse and its needs at each shoeing - incidentally none of my much valued 'team' of professionals spotted the problem with this latest horse and my constant protestations were met with assurances that the horse was fine and just showing attitude. Eventually my nagging doubt and a change of heart from the Physio resulted in a direct referral to the equine hospital where a bone scan/ultra sound confirmed a serious issue with the spine/associated ligaments. He has had 5 months of being 'worked through' his bad attitude which ironically has turned out to be an absolutely amazing attitude considering what he has been silently suffering.

It is all too common for a horse to be labelled as a problem rather than being thoroughly investigated and as this latest situation has proved to me, the usual checks are not always enough. If every 'rogue' horse was given the benefit of veterinary technology I wonder what percentage would actually be deemed to be true behavioural problems?

Anyway - I shall still be investing my time, money, heart and soul into another because I am still hopeful - maybe it is me that has the behavioural problem

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

Anyway - I shall still be investing my time, money, heart and soul into another because I am still hopeful - maybe it is me that has the behavioural problem

This does it make me crazy too!

 

[TarrSteps]

Nail.head.
If the rider can actively help the horse to use its body in the best way, with the least effort, it's a huge advantage. I do also think the grey area between too much work and not enough is probably smaller than we think.....the fine line between building strength and wearing the body out....

And, as with all things, it's situational. Lots of work with good riders on good footing is going to be more beneficial/less harmful that lots of work with bad riders on bad footing.

 

[TarrSteps]

God, I am thoroughly depressed now. I definitely don't know enough or have enough time, to keep a horse sound. Sigh. Where do I go for lessons?!

The good news is most people only need to learn how to keep a few horses sound in very specific situations.

No one is saying there are guarantees. If a horse has a preexisting condition or is just unlucky, it's not about you! We are talking about managing percentages of risk, not waving magic wands. Sometimes you do a lot wrong and it still works, sometimes you do a lot right and it doesn't. Like anything else.

 

[TarrSteps]

. . . that the horse was fine and just showing attitude.

This is a phrase that makes my blood run cold. The thing is, sometimes it's true but "attitude" doesn't feel like "broken"! They can intersect, of course, and that is very tricky, but it goes back to the expert thing. Why should vets be experts on training any more than trainers should be acting as vets? (I'm not saying they don't have useful things to offer - see earlier "village" comment - but it's contextual like any other advice.)

A further complication is discomfort trains horses. (In fact negative reinforcement is a fundamental part of much of "good" horse training.) So even once a horse feels better, it may not act/go better. Changes in way of going and attitude need to be made before the physical improvements can be clear and ongoing.

I can see why people find this depressing. Personally, I find it fascinating, like a big puzzle. But then when it's my own animals I whine as hard as anyone!

 

[stencilface]

God, I am thoroughly depressed now. I definitely don't know enough or have enough time, to keep a horse sound. Sigh. Where do I go for lessons?!

Ha ha, ditto!

If I can't get mine sound for next year, it's back to ponies (and er, a strict diet!) for me. The constant worry (stress?!) over the last 3 years with mine have been soul destroying, I just can't face spending anymore spare cash on vets fees excesses and alternative therapies. He'll just be a very expensive and pretty field ornament, and maybe I'll try again with him in 2015 and see how quickly I can break him

 

[montanna]

So the 14.2hh I rode in ponies, jumped BS from 1987 (two years before I was born!!) successfully and regularly until 2005 (and he aged 25!) when I was out of ponies (including the 1.20m talentspotters grand prix at POYS that year) and then went on to teach a little girl to jump into his 30's. He was then retired until he died from old age at age 33.

We never had back people, or physios, or chiros, or oestopaths... or special supplements or saddle fitters or anything like that! Our menage at home was a fenced off bit of field with builders sand put straight on top - the worst surface you could probably ever imagine.

I then bought a mare to jump that had previously evented. She was kept at a 5* livery yard, three different schools including an indoor with beautiful surfaces, great hacking. She had a saddle properly fitted, five stage vetted, an osteo, a physio. She had a great farrier, turned out in a huge well-maintained field in a small herd. She lasted three months before she went bang - she had a bone scan, MRI, X-Rays, the lot - nobody could tell me what was wrong with her but she wasn't sound that was for sure.

I then had a lovely, lovely horse on loan from the owner who bought him back from the people she had sold him to. He was previously mistreated by them, kept at a *****ehole yard with rubbish grazing, the girl had 10+ other horses, used to smoke in the stables, they had a horsewalker that resembled some sort of torture device!! It was terrible. He was a bag of bones, riddled with rainscald, petrified to come near anyone. He was 14 and jumped successfully BS the whole time he was with these idiots! He then came to me, and jumped near on every weekend when he got better until he had a freak accident (not his fault whatsoever!) a year later ending in him being PTS.

So although I agree with the theory of all the above poster and in such makes sense... I have had a totally different experience!!

 

[Brownmare]

I am finding this discussion fascinating, having had my share of indestructible ponies (2 week pre-camp fitness programme anyone?!) and broken horses.

have been thinking about this more, and do think a lot more than people realise is down to routine, and attention to detail rather than fancy gadgets or luck.

They have a fairly set routine of 2 days work, 1 day off or a walk hack, and each weeks work programme is set out/discussed at the start of that week.
We try to work a different muscle group each half session so fatigue and soreness doesnt set in.

The build up to important shows is also planned with military precision so that the horses have had enough exposure but are still fresh, have run through the relevant tests if needed etc.

PS - I would love to learn more detail on these points, especially how you go about working different muscle groups during a schooling session.

Also, what are peoples thoughts on the benefits / damage done by lungeing and in-hand work?

 

[Albertus H]

I feel your pain as I went through it having my TB ex racer who was never not injured! It was, luckily, only minor injuries each time, apart from a few bouts of colic, one being quite serious, but it was quite annoying when she had just started to go well and then a set back appeared! I did have 6yrs of great fun with her though

My current horse is a Dutch Warmblood, 16.1, 8yrs old. I was told by many people not to bother with a warmblood as they always have problems with their legs etc. but tbh I think any horse has an equal chance! I've had him nearly 3yrs now and *touch wood!* never ever had a problem with him. I showjump, and only showjump but I look after him a lot. I jump him 2x per week max and he's at shows regularly, not every weekend but does go to away shows a lot so can jump for up to 6 days at a time! He is a naturally very sturdy horse and very clever which I think also helps. He passed a 5 stage vetting when I bought him and I also had him re-vetted at the beginning of this year for insurance and he passed with flying colours again, so I do feel extremely lucky!

He lives in mostly, goes out maybe a couple of times a week which suits him. I also believe this is the reason why he has been sound all this time! Some don't agree but he is very much a "stable" horse, he hates being out too long, and I'm not keen on him being out to prevent injuries, so we suit each other really!

I just think some horses are prone to it more than others, their routine could be the same or better than another horse, but always seem to find some sort of trouble!

Chin up, your luck will turn around soon, I had 6yrs of problems with my TB and I think I'm being rewarded for it now!

 

[ClobellsandBaubles]

I have seen it take a year or more (depending on the situation) out in a field with company and varied terrain. And often the horse does not look better for it initially! I'm not going to get on to the "good ole days" wagon but I do think we used to be a bit hardier about chucking them out and seeing what happened. I understand this is not possible for many people now - and it is far from a cure all! - but I've seen some amazing things come "right enough".

I don't have a broken horse story to share but at a yard I worked on there was a mare who had fetlock and tendon issues at only 6, I think. She was put on box rest and had all the conventional management which didn't help until the old school Spanish YO suggested turning away in the meadows in the hills she was turned away without shoes for over a year and came back down sound as a bell back into work.

 

[Scarlett]

Also, what are peoples thoughts on the benefits / damage done by lungeing and in-hand work?

Surely, as with everything, this will depend how it's done? Anything done badly, even if the intent is good, will cause damage. Lunging incorrectly in a Pessoa - though some argue lunging at all in a Pessoa - will cause more damage than lunging properly in a headcollar, which is a skill in its own right, even though we are told that lunging 'aids' are things of wonder....

 

[TarrSteps]

Re the comments about working with vets, farriers etc. I do think it has to be seen as a collaborative exercise and at least partly a service based relationship. If the horse's issue is happening in ridden work make sure they see it ridden! If they brush you off, insist!

Be detailed but unemotional when you give information. Don't understate. If your horse bucks under saddle, don't discuss with your vet how this makes you feel, discuss when it happens, any changes in the pattern etc. I don't like the only time the vet sees the horse ridden to be at the clinic with a strange rider - that can produce some abnormal reactions! Sometimes it does help to have another rider on the horse though, if only so you can stand on the ground and discuss what you're seeing.

I saw a horse recently that turns itself inside out in one specific common situation. My advice was get a vet as it was a pretty clear anxiety response and, considering the whole horse, likely pain related. Owner reported back vet said it was all 'attitude'. I was surprised but then found out the vet never saw the reaction because the horse was never put in the situation! I think he might have pronounced differently if he'd seen the whole picture!

I'm not saying distrust your professional help, I'm just saying try to foster a holistic approach.

 

[MadJ]

I saw a horse recently that turns itself inside out in one specific common situation. My advice was get a vet as it was a pretty clear anxiety response and, considering the whole horse, likely pain related. Owner reported back vet said it was all 'attitude'. I was surprised but then found out the vet never saw the reaction because the horse was never put in the situation! I think he might have pronounced differently if he'd seen the whole picture!

I had an issue with my horses a few years ago after she came back in to work after 4 months of box rest due to a cut on her fetlock. Vet even watch me ride and saw her change in attitude once she was asked to work. Told me I needed to work her through it, she was just being a mare! 2 days later this horse buried me in the school while just trying to trot a circle so in my sorely concussed desperation, I knew this horse wasn't bad by nature and there was something wrong, I begged my acupuncture vet to have a look.
The difference after the first session was amazing and by the third all the resistance and bad attitude had gone.

 

[timetoride]

TarrStepps thank you, yes I see that today Was a bit oversensitive yesterday I think! Scans all on monday to be certain about everything, and see if there's a slightest chance she could be sound enough to be a light hack for my mother. But even with for example OCD surely there are good competition lines without OCD which should be encouraged for future generations more than with it? i.e. breeding sports horses should be scientific not emotional (tricky I know ) Totally agree "attitude" doesn't feel like "broken" often- I've been told by (very good, reputable- will go back to them) trainers that this horse is just being lazy/in a young horse phase, push her on etc but I've never really believed it- she's just too lovely, so I gave up on lessons and went back to hacking to get her more forward until this showed up. My mum thought it was behavioural as well until I persuaded her to go for a hack on her- we called the vets that afternoon. Maybe my trainer would have felt something different if she had sat on her? I just wish she had done something more like bucked or something other than just go a bit slow to alert me that something was wrong before going properly lame.

Goldenstar- thank you, appreciate this thread lots today knowing I am not alone! Yes thats exactly it. Its not the money (not that I have alot at all but I don't spend alot on them as unbroken) its the overwhelming crushing feeling of knowing thats another year of my life gone by getting older without doing what I love, and looking after an equally bored and depressed horse.

Lulup and Holidaysarecoming- You're not alone with a behavioural problem! I've spent 3 days saying I'm never going to buy another one again, its a ridiculous waste of time I should be studying in, i'm never going to break another one in, I'll only ride other peoples etcetcetc... then this morning "oooohh theres a 2* schoolmaster for sale! He's survived 16 years surely he can do another few..!!" aaaaggh- I think I need to set up a counselling group like for alcohol addicts but for competing addicts...

Brownmare- I generally don't lunge any more (except for for vets/ to see if they are sound I guess!) A place I worked at before lunged them all the time and it just made me think- if the school surface is getting damaged but this much wear surely that strain is going on their legs too? But no proof so I guess just everything in moderation until other evidence is found?

Got a working pupil role this winter, so if I learn any 'special' things the pros do I'll share on here (with their permission of course!)

 

[siennamum]

I have a few thoughts, (as one of those who could hark back to another era of horse keeping).

I think a fundamental difference was that wastage still high years ago, but when a horse broke, it might be shipped off to the sales or shot. Now when horses break, we all moan about it online and it seems to be common place, when maybe it isn't. Horses were also scrutinised less closely, so there may have been more horses not quite right, but still hunting, or doing a job.

Interestingly I think that many of the practices advocated to keep horse sound can be detrimental. Horses kept in interesting environments with rough keep and a social group will generally be happier and healthier than those kept on boring flat manicured squares in isolation.

Horses should always be ridden away for 6 months when first broken in. Rarely in an arena, and never really 'on the bit' simply into the bridle, but left to find their feet. I think working them in circles is hugely detrimental until they are strong enough.

 

[TarrSteps]

Just to add to the above, my recall is it also used to be much more common to see horses break down catastrophically, even at quite low levels of competition. I think we catch a lot of things now we simply didn't before.

And if horses got turned away they either got better or they didn't. Unless you were intimately connected to the horse, you'd never know. Might Tango broke down after (done say at. . .) the Worlds and never evented again and no one thought that particularly unusual. I believe he did hunt after but these days 4* horses often go on for decades! I personally knew a fair number of horses that competed after being nerved or having something similarly spectacular done. Horses broke back in the good old days too!

I think we can also do a lot to 'cover things up' now. Maybe that's not always for the best.

The thing of it is, **** happens, too. We do what we can because we can. It's no guarantee. You can do everything right and still be unlucky. Frankly, I don't know why we all keep trying. Proves my point that horses are really hard drugs!