mikedpe
Active Member
Copyright means the right to copy, when you purchase a print there is no transfer of copyright and hence NO you are not allowed to do that, it would be a copyright infringement.
Mike
Copyright enforcement - A new approach
- Thread starter mikedpe
- Start date
Copyright means the right to copy, when you purchase a print there is no transfer of copyright and hence NO you are not allowed to do that, it would be a copyright infringement.
Mike
TGM
Well-Known Member
However you will often find if you ask the photographer they will give you permission to do so, in my experience anyway.
Mavis007
Well-Known Member
Mike, I presume you mean you personally disagree with people posting a scanned image they have actually bought onto their personal social media site? I can totally understand that such an image shouldn't be used for advertising etc but surely for personal social media it should be acceptable if that image is bought and paid for. In spirit at least. I totally agree about not posting "stolen" images that have not been paid for at all.
Twizzel
Well-Known Member
I am quite happy for people to scan it in for personal use even though as mike says you do not own the copyright, I am happy for a customer to scan in a purchased print
mikedpe
Active Member
No, I mean the laws of UK, Europe etc. all make it an offence to do that, as in a photographer can take civil recovery action if somebody does that with one of their images. Recent court cases show that the courts support the photographers rights in this matter with ignorance being no defence.
Personally I am against people doing this and for my images there is no justification in doing it as I provide a free image sized for social media free of charge which they can share.
Mike
Santa_Claus
Well-Known Member
No Mike is quoting the law. it is ILLEGAL to scan a photo and repost online. Very few photographers will have issue if you paid for the original but they would be within their rights to charge you for making the copy.
This article explains fully
http://e-venting.co.uk/2013/02/photography-copyright-explained/
Personally I have also turned my backs on competitors. There is one who hadn't stolen my images but another photographer's. Granted the cheapest image from that photographer is £17ish and they don't allow social media sharing and a low res image is £15 BUT if you don't like that then you don't post. I politely pulled them up on the fact they hadn't paid and was met with a barrage of abuse and weak excuses which were laughable. the result? I now refuse to take any photos of her at any event and if I accidentally they are deleted. I also deleted all previous photos I had taken of her. I never wish to bite off my nose to spite my face loosing sales but given her attitude I knew she was never going to buy any anyway!
Mavis007
Well-Known Member
That's great that you provide the digital image free of charge when people buy your photo Mike. To me, this means that you do actually agree that it is right that people should be able to post the image if they have bought it. Good for you to provide a method by which people can legally do this. If only everyone did the same and no-one shared images they hadn't paid for, it would be fair for everyone 
mikedpe
Active Member
Not really a case of me agreeing, more of listening to what my customers would like, or better said how they would like to use their images. I also try to put myself in the customers position, after all the more happy customers I can recruit the happier I am.
There have been huge changes since I started out in photography, in what we can do, what the customers can do and what customers want so any photographer that does not try to keep up to date will lose out, however that gives no justification for others to infringe their copyright but maybe they could be educated.
Mike
Holidays_are_coming
Well-Known Member
With most Photographers now doing low res FB pics, there really is no reason not to steal pictures. I have just started out with my new boy so the jumps as tiny so its not a pic on my wall photo but if there is a nice pic or 2 I will buy some low res images, as its lovely to have a record of our comps together, Ill pay up to £5 for a image and I have even brought bloopers before as they were highly amusing!!! I hate seeing watermarked images its not fair on the photographers,
spookypony
Well-Known Member
What makes me most likely to buy is if there are low-res jpegs, available very quickly after an event. I'm far more likely to buy an image if I can have it within 24h of the event, because I'd like to use it in my forum/social media posts. I rarely have company along, so tend to rely on official photos. I'm only likely to buy a print if the event was especially important to me, and/or the photo is spectacular. But if social-media-appropriate pics are priced at, say, 5 quid or less, I'm likely to buy several. I think the giant "STOLEN" watermark is probably one of the better deterrents out there!
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
I have my local photographer on FB - when I buy a print he will upload the jpeg and tag me in it - he is wonderful and has done me some good deals in the past. In return I tag him in copyrighted photos which appear on my feed. I hang my head in shame that a few years ago I did use copyrighted photos on FB - it was when the concept was relatively new and I was a teenager - a lot of younger teens are quite internet savvy, lacking in a debit card and unsupervised which is a perfect mix for copyright theft.
mikedpe
Active Member
Trust me after dealing with half a dozen this week it amazed me that the people commenting on those stolen images never mentioned it once.
Mike
dollymix
Well-Known Member
I am amazed by some people's views.
Whilst I agree that its important for businesses to listen to their customers, and set realistic prices, they are setting them based on their outgoings in order to make a profit from sitting in the field all day.
This may the photographers full time job, and therefore they need to MAKE money. How would you like it if your boss came along and said, "our customers are complaining about how much we charge so we are lowering your wage to cut the price?"
Other photographers give up their wkends after working FT. Often sitting in one place all day, in the rain, with barely ten mind to run to the loo between classes. But I suppose they don't deserve to earn a wage?!
Copying images is stealing!!!!!
You wouldn't walk into Top Shop, look at a skirt, say 'oh it's too expensive', then hide it in your bag and walk out!!! So why is taking an image acceptable?
I find the ethics fairly obvious!
Whilst I agree that its important for businesses to listen to their customers, and set realistic prices, they are setting them based on their outgoings in order to make a profit from sitting in the field all day.
This may the photographers full time job, and therefore they need to MAKE money. How would you like it if your boss came along and said, "our customers are complaining about how much we charge so we are lowering your wage to cut the price?"
Other photographers give up their wkends after working FT. Often sitting in one place all day, in the rain, with barely ten mind to run to the loo between classes. But I suppose they don't deserve to earn a wage?!
Copying images is stealing!!!!!
You wouldn't walk into Top Shop, look at a skirt, say 'oh it's too expensive', then hide it in your bag and walk out!!! So why is taking an image acceptable?
I find the ethics fairly obvious!
spidge
Well-Known Member
Five years ago I started a thread on here which some of the veterans will remember:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...hoplifters-Rant-follows&highlight=shoplifters
It ran to 44 pages of response, with 434 comments with 32330 viewings.
Have we moved on, has the landscape changed in that time, are we as photographers witnessing less theft?
I learnt a huge amount from the feedback on that and several other relevant threads- In the 5 years since I have completely adapted my business workflow and products both onsite and online to what I heard was wanted by the riding community we photograph. Had I not done so my business may well have failed. It's good to talk but often better to listen.
Have we as photographers won the war? No and probably never will but we do win battles and have succeeded in many ways so I see a lot of positives in that.
I get emails and PM's daily from other photographers and customers flagging up riders with screenprinted watermarked images of ours. The common refrain I keep hearing is that everyone is seeing less watermarked images on social media ESPECIALLY from those photographers who provide a comprehensive and affordable jpeg option alongside the traditional print options.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...hoplifters-Rant-follows&highlight=shoplifters
It ran to 44 pages of response, with 434 comments with 32330 viewings.
Have we moved on, has the landscape changed in that time, are we as photographers witnessing less theft?
I learnt a huge amount from the feedback on that and several other relevant threads- In the 5 years since I have completely adapted my business workflow and products both onsite and online to what I heard was wanted by the riding community we photograph. Had I not done so my business may well have failed. It's good to talk but often better to listen.
Have we as photographers won the war? No and probably never will but we do win battles and have succeeded in many ways so I see a lot of positives in that.
I get emails and PM's daily from other photographers and customers flagging up riders with screenprinted watermarked images of ours. The common refrain I keep hearing is that everyone is seeing less watermarked images on social media ESPECIALLY from those photographers who provide a comprehensive and affordable jpeg option alongside the traditional print options.
vic07
Well-Known Member
Ouch at some of the anger on this thread. Maybe a few points slightly away from the copyright argument.
I hardly ever buy pictures, it's an additional expense on an expensive day, combined with the fact my clever boyfriend can take an equivalent quality picture.
I also always used to store all photos (in the paper age - when dinosaurs still roamed the world) til the end of the year and then purchase the best one or two - something that's difficult to do with digital images. Maybe a 'store your favourites box' on photographers' website would help this one?
Also there is a problem with what to do with the images - prints = I only have so many walls in my house, digital = I forget they are there and never look at them again!
Photographers also need to be realistic in their business model, they cannot expect that every competitor will make a purchase. No business should expect an 100% strike rate. I also find it worrying that photographers resent people looking at their images and then not buying. It's called business - people don't have to buy! If the product is good enough at the right price, purchases will happen!
I hardly ever buy pictures, it's an additional expense on an expensive day, combined with the fact my clever boyfriend can take an equivalent quality picture.
I also always used to store all photos (in the paper age - when dinosaurs still roamed the world) til the end of the year and then purchase the best one or two - something that's difficult to do with digital images. Maybe a 'store your favourites box' on photographers' website would help this one?
Also there is a problem with what to do with the images - prints = I only have so many walls in my house, digital = I forget they are there and never look at them again!
Photographers also need to be realistic in their business model, they cannot expect that every competitor will make a purchase. No business should expect an 100% strike rate. I also find it worrying that photographers resent people looking at their images and then not buying. It's called business - people don't have to buy! If the product is good enough at the right price, purchases will happen!
mikedpe
Active Member
A standard feature in many photographers galleries including mine
People can look as much as they want, none of us expect 100% sales but we do expect the stuff being shared to have been paid for i.e. 100% payment for all use.
Mike
jrp204
Well-Known Member
I doubt any photographer expects every competitor to make a purchase and not sure they would mind people looking through their images that they may then buy, or not. But I think it is totally fair enough that they would mind when people post stolen images.
vic07
Well-Known Member
Quoted
"I hate the reviewers "oh look at your feet in that one, your hands are too low or your centre of gravity is wrong" no intention of buying, just occupying the sales terminals as if we should be grateful."
Er... That's not what you said previously!
"I hate the reviewers "oh look at your feet in that one, your hands are too low or your centre of gravity is wrong" no intention of buying, just occupying the sales terminals as if we should be grateful."
Er... That's not what you said previously!
mikedpe
Active Member
I have absolutely no issue with those looking with an intent to buy but who may not find something they like, I do have issue with those that use us as a review service that had no intent to purchase on site as facilities are limited.
Mike
vic07
Well-Known Member
But you have no idea if those people would buy if their position was perfect! I'm sorry I don't usually get involved but your attitude really touched a nerve. I will now feel reluctant to even have a look at pictures....
peter121
New User
Im a Photographer.I never used to watermark my pics until i found many of them posted on Facebook and even used for commercial purposes.Now i watermark,resize (large res photos)and add exif data to my pictures in bulk using this software called Mass Watermark before i put them anywhere in the web. Take a look at this video
[video=youtube;TKviwY-4tBY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKviwY-4tBY[/video]
After watermarking i find that theft has reduced significantly
[video=youtube;TKviwY-4tBY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKviwY-4tBY[/video]
After watermarking i find that theft has reduced significantly
mikedpe
Active Member
In the car trade they call it tyre kickers.
Worst category are those that come to look to see if there is anything worth logging on to the gallery to steal.
I often go into shops when I want to buy and look at what they have, I will also go and see if there is something new so I understand that people want to look, but there are definitely some who use us as a free review service.
What I must do though is say thanks to the riders that are letting me know about the thieves which is what this thread started about.
Mike
meardsall_millie
Well-Known Member
I'll be honest, you're not representing yourself and your fellow photographers well here!
I agree with vic07, if that's the general attitude then I won't bother even looking in the future.
Wouldn't it be a shame if all competitors took the same view?!
dollymix
Well-Known Member
The worst behaviour I have witnessed is riders getting their un-watermarked image up on screen in the trade tent (the guy I used to work for loads them up every hour un-water marked at an event so they can be viewed quickly by riders before they go home) and then trying to take a photo of it on their mobile phones!!! They are kicked out quick smart. Appalling behaviour.
Twizzel
Well-Known Member
My mum runs my sales trailer, she is a very patient kind lady but low behold anyone who does this (and she's caught a few people) they are promptly (and politely) told to delete said pictures and remove themselves from the trailer!
Best thing was at a show a couple of weeks ago a girl asked to plug her ipad into my viewing laptop and put her photos on there so she could show her mother back in the lorry...
mikedpe
Active Member
I do not know how you do think I should feel about this. I think you are reading things in to it that are not there.
What I am saying here are things that are constantly repeated in photographers forums and photographers facebook groups. We are constantly looking at how we can provide a better service, in particular for the 99% of riders that treat us with respect. We are only chasing the 1%.
Look at somebody like Tescos, they do not close the shop because of shoplifters but they do put up big signs letting everybody know that shoplifters will be prosecuted. Do I feel insulted when I shop there? No, has it stopped me shopping there, of course not.
By letting people know the issues there may be suggestions that you have that can stop or reduce these issues. I have heard more than one rider politely suggest that if others have no intent on purchasing perhaps they could let those that do use the equipment.
An answer might be more equipment but at £1000 a viewing terminal and knowing that if they are not all being observed by sales that there are those that will photograph the screen we then have a space issue.
So if you are part of the 99% you have no reason to be upset and maybe you can help us tackle the 1% which in the long run will help you get a better service.
Mike
meardsall_millie
Well-Known Member
Firstly, let me make it absolutely clear that I whole heartedly agree with your original post about trying to stop people stealing your images.
However, as background, this forum gets a steady stream of photographers with something of a 'woe is me' attitude, trying to justify high prices because they have to buy expensive equipment, pay people, stand in the rain all day, etc, etc. Well, quite - but every business has overheads and if they're not making money then clearly their business model is wrong (see Spidge's excellent post a couple of pages ago) or, maybe, they're in the wrong game. Please remember also that the competitors have put blood, sweat, tears - and a heck of a lot of money - into being at that event too, and maybe the difference between £12 for a print and £15 for a print is just too much for them to pay, and that's why they don't purchase (and no - that doesn't mean they should go home and steal the image instead).
It's also about marketing. With respect, you've made a number of fairly sweeping statements about competitors (even if you come back and say you were directing them at the 'bad' competitors, not everyone will have read it that way). I guess if you wish to say those things in private, or even on a photographers forum, then great but might I suggest that coming onto a forum aimed at competitors is probably not the way to get us all on your side! I'm sure there's someone on here who knows exactly who you are or it probably wouldn't take a computer whizz to find out if someone really wanted to - it's not going to help your business if the next set of competitors are sitting at your stand wondering if they're being watched like hawks because they're not trusted, or are being sl*gged off behind the scenes!
In my professional life I have to be really careful about what I say, to whom and when. My work spills over into my private life too, sometimes I'd love to stick a comment on facebook but I have to sit on my hands because I know it could affect my professional reputation. Only the other day, I made a comment on a friends horse-related post but, because of the direction I'm going in my 'horsey-life', I decided it was inappropriate and I went back and edited it.
So I do understand and I do empathise, it must be really frustrating but some of the comments on here (from many people not directed solely at you) are hitting a few nerves for me (and others too, it would seem).
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
Ha - that is a corker! Thing is (knowing nothing about photographing events) I know how taxing it can be to sit by the same fence for hours on end as I have done my fair share of fence judging - and that is my measure of photographers - sitting in that spot, for hours on end, to create something magical of me and my horses that I can buy and put on my wall and look at forever. And sat here now I have a lot of very good moments caught forever, moments I wouldn't have if it weren't for photographers.
Twizzel
Well-Known Member
Please also remember that a lot of competitors are amateur and not competing as part of a business so you are comparing 2 different things. It is their choice to compete for a purely leisure or hobbyist reason. One thing that really bugs me is a lot of people especially on this forum moan about our pricing and how they are competing on a budget, however how many of you visit the catering van at an event and quite happily spent £5 on a burger or £2 on a cup of coffee? If you are really on a budget you take a packed lunch. I had a lady try and barter with me a couple of weeks ago because she's spent most of her money on some chips from the burger van next door, so could she have a discounted print- I said no, she could buy them online instead. She didn't go to the burger van and ask for discounted chips so she could buy a photo- some people just need to get their priorities right!
I certainly don't moan about being an event photographer- it's my choice and my decision to stand out there (and make all of my photographers stand in the pouring rain all day). However I will have a bloody good moan if I have stood in the rain all day and then come home to find watermarked images on facebook. Luckily down here I have a very loyal customer base and a hugely popular facebook page, being in Cornwall the equestrian community is very close knit and we have some fantastic customers but I am constantly trying to educate those minority riders who do not appreciate what we do.
meardsall_millie
Well-Known Member
You are missing my point. It's a matter of supply and demand - if you have the goods that someone wants to buy at the right price, then they will buy them. I was making the point that some photographers moan that they have to charge high prices because they have high overheads, and give the impression that competitors are 'obliged' to purchase something - after all the photographer has bothered to turn up and stand out in the rain all day - well they may have but if no-one wants to buy their photos because they're too expensive (in the customers view) then they're soon not going to have a business!
As for 'if you're on a budget you should take a packed lunch' - words fail me! A competitor will spend their money on whatever the heck they want, as you said they are there pursuing their hobby, it's not a matter of priorities it's a matter of choice! Maybe that lady did go and barter for her chips, who knows? As a vendor you either chose to go with it or politely say no.
And I agree - if I'd stood out in the rain all day taking photos, I would be equally as p'd off if I came home to find someone had pinched them, I'm not arguing with you about that at all!