Copyright enforcement - A new approach

[criso]

Our local photographer offers 3 options - buy a print, buy a high res image which has greater usage rights and low res for forums and social networking sites.

I will often buy 5 or 6 of option 3 so it is a good option.

The only condition is you do not remove their name from the image so you are crediting them.

However I've still just got told off by hho for using an image on here that I bought for that purpose so you can't win.u

 

[mikedpe]

However I've still just got told off by hho for using an image on here that I bought for that purpose so you can't win.u

This is the sort of issue that we as photographers need to work on with people like hho so that a good service is maintained.

Mike

 

[Twizzel]

You are missing my point. It's a matter of supply and demand - if you have the goods that someone wants to buy at the right price, then they will buy them. I was making the point that some photographers moan that they have to charge high prices because they have high overheads, and give the impression that competitors are 'obliged' to purchase something - after all the photographer has bothered to turn up and stand out in the rain all day - well they may have but if no-one wants to buy their photos because they're too expensive (in the customers view) then they're soon not going to have a business!

As for 'if you're on a budget you should take a packed lunch' - words fail me! A competitor will spend their money on whatever the heck they want, as you said they are there pursuing their hobby, it's not a matter of priorities it's a matter of choice! Maybe that lady did go and barter for her chips, who knows? As a vendor you either chose to go with it or politely say no.

And I agree - if I'd stood out in the rain all day taking photos, I would be equally as p'd off if I came home to find someone had pinched them, I'm not arguing with you about that at all!

What I'm saying is most people don't think twice about using the burger van, but then moan about the price of a print. A JPEG from me costs the same as a cup of takeaway coffee. Yes everyone is within their rights to spend their money on what they want. I rarely use the catering on site- I take a packed lunch because it's a lot cheaper, and used to as well when I was competing as quite frankly I preferred to spend my money more wisely than on takeaway food of mediocre quality.

Granted a photographer as well as any other businessman should price according to the market which I certainly do, the standard £10-£12 for a 9x6 at a local show is about the norm- a lot of people think it should be half this price or even cheaper but they do not understand the overheads and running costs of such a business, which I think is what photographers are trying to explain here. It's not just the case of rocking up with a camera and snapping away.

 

[teapot]

I fully support togs upping the anti regarding the theft of photos and I posted Santa's link on my own fb page because I have a number of friends who think it's ok to steal watermarked images. I think it just comes down to a lack of understanding and awareness regarding copyright law.

That said, I saw someone comment on a photographer's status saying that whilst she'd never steal photos that are for sale, if they weren't for sale, she effectively saw them as fair game to use?! I don't think it's right to steal/borrow/use anyone's photo without permission whether it's for sale or not.

I've had some photos used for a specific facebook group, who then asked if I could take some more at their next event. I was very happy to do so and meant I briefly topped up my tan yesterday morning. I'm far from professional but did spend last evening editing some 200 images for them to choose from. The time and effort involved with photography at a professional level, as demonstrated by those on this thread is vast and it's about time people realised that!

 

[meardsall_millie]

What I'm saying is most people don't think twice about using the burger van, but then moan about the price of a print. A JPEG from me costs the same as a cup of takeaway coffee. Yes everyone is within their rights to spend their money on what they want. I rarely use the catering on site- I take a packed lunch because it's a lot cheaper, and used to as well when I was competing as quite frankly I preferred to spend my money more wisely than on takeaway food of mediocre quality.

Granted a photographer as well as any other businessman should price according to the market which I certainly do, the standard £10-£12 for a 9x6 at a local show is about the norm- a lot of people think it should be half this price or even cheaper but they do not understand the overheads and running costs of such a business, which I think is what photographers are trying to explain here. It's not just the case of rocking up with a camera and snapping away.

OK let's consider this realistically. Your average hobby event rider has every intention of making a packed lunch for her event on Saturday, however by the time she's legged it to the yard from work (possibly one of several jobs she's holding down to fund this stupidly expensive hobby), ridden, bathed, spruced and plaited horse, it's close to a quarter to midnight by the time she gets to bed as she's also had to sit at home cleaning her tack and sorting the rest of her kit out, so the packed lunch is forgotten.

She's up at 3.30 the next morning to feed and muck out before driving for 3 hours to get to the event in plenty of time to walk the course before the 8am dressage.

So at lunchtime, after she's finished riding, she's in your tent choosing a lovely picture to purchase, when she suddenly feels a bit squiffy. It's at that point she realises the last thing she ate was a Mars Bar last night whilst cleaning the horses stud holes out (obviously you can't count the 3 cans of Red Bull and half a bag of Haribo she had this morning as it was too early to eat when she left the yard, and she couldn't stomach any food after seeing the size of the ditch under the trakehner at fence 11). She has £15 in her pocket (that's all she's got after forking out for training, entry fees, start fees and fuel), so what does she do? Buy your lovely print or get something to eat from the mediocre burger van? And having chosen the food, she might come back to you and push her luck with a bit of bartering for her lovely print.

Ok, sorry - I know I'm being facetious but the fact of the matter is that the majority of riders have a finite budget and once it's gone, it's gone. Regardless of how good value, or how much in keeping with the market all these extras are, they can't buy them all.

I've said my piece so I'll shut up now. I probably need to be careful as I guess there's a burger van owner on the horizon trying to hunt me down to tell me exactly why they can't use better quality ingredients (ie a burger that's been closer to a cow than whizzing past a field full of bovines in the freezer lorry) because it would put their overheads up and they'd have to charge more for the food......

 

[dieseldog]

Ok, sorry - I know I'm being facetious but the fact of the matter is that the majority of riders have a finite budget and once it's gone, it's gone. Regardless of how good value, or how much in keeping with the market all these extras are, they can't buy them all.

And it seems to be a fact of life that in the list of priorities buying food, rather than making a packed lunch, is higher up the list than buying a photo - that doesn't make them bad people - you just need to work out how to utilise the remaining spare cash. Can you do instant downloads via bluetooth or emailed to someones phone at an event? Does anyone do that to capture the impulse buyers? I rarely buy a physical photo anymore as I have nowhere to put them, the last ones I bought are still in the envelope they were delivered in 5 years ago! But I do like a cheaper download as it looks nice on FB.

 

[mikedpe]

And it seems to be a fact of life that in the list of priorities buying food, rather than making a packed lunch, is higher up the list than buying a photo - that doesn't make them bad people - you just need to work out how to utilise the remaining spare cash. Can you do instant downloads via bluetooth or emailed to someones phone at an event? Does anyone do that to capture the impulse buyers? I rarely buy a physical photo anymore as I have nowhere to put them, the last ones I bought are still in the envelope they were delivered in 5 years ago! But I do like a cheaper download as it looks nice on FB.

Many fields have poor signal strengths, meaning difficult to email. I have the gallery set up for Facebook images

Mike

 

[spidge]

Cracking post Meardsall-Millie.

Substitute getting horses ready for delivering and setting up trailer one day prior to the event, course walk to ensure we have chosen the most boring,banal and smallest jumps on the course with the most cluttered backgrounds shooting directly into the sun as we know riders love and respect us for that. Setup 600 folders with rider name, number and horse name ready to load the boring banal teeny weeny jump pictures in tomorrow if we can cajole the bikes collecting the jump judge score sheets to bring back the camera cards at least once every couple of hours and hopefully the same day. Check and hope staff will turn up on time with fully charged batteries and their game face on. Find that the pitch you have been allocated is completely unlevel, as far as it is physically possible from the scorers tent and guess what, you forgot the vouchers that you need to supply to the organiser for all the section winners you have provided prizes for. Just reprint them! Can you also get that special shot for the sponsor that won't actually pay you for that picture, you know on the jump your not covering but if you could just pop down, please. Didn't we tell you that the video company was here, oh sorry about that. Competition day get up about the same time as the riders to travel to event, hope that you put unleaded in the generator not diesel in your hurry, wonder which health and safety clipboard wizard will be at this event? Can we get the announcers to possibly announce us just once, after all we pay almost as much to be here as Jones the Jewellers who have been plugged 37 times already this morning. Oh goody, pleased to note that at least 5 of our favourite hobbyist photographers will also be on course all weekend diligently snapping away ready to publish on Facebook tonight with the watermark almost visible if you squint hard enough. 300 riders and 10 hours later your photographers re-appear, grumpy that the jump judge refused to move their pink and mauve Fiesta out of their shot, grumpy that the nearest portaloo was so close they would only miss 10 riders so they had to use the nearest bush. The poor guys on the stand then have to spend half an hour placating the riders with less pics than everyone else that it really was an unfortunate co-incidence that they got missed this week (as well as last week). Spend ages trying to get the showjumping photographer enthused about photographing the same 5 jumps another 300 times tomorrow. Indulge the regional U18 starlet whilst she patiently explains to all and sundry why she won't be buying pictures this week as nothing really grabs her- today's only a warmup round really for next week at ..... wherever! Try and adjudicate between various mummy and daughter squabbles throughout the day about which pictures they could both potentially live with and still remain in the same house in the country. Last few customers eventually leave the stand at 7pm because they are simply too tired to decide, answer several emails to explain when today's gallery will be online and several others to explain how to download images from Dropbox that you sent that afternoon when the wifi dongle briefly had a data signal. Oh you have a Hotmail account, check your trash folder please , the email I sent you will be in there, honestly. Hooray, finally decamp to pub half an hour after everyone else has left the field, please let there be a table, any table and explaining that you don't mind waiting half an hour before placing your food order. Check into Travelodge, cart all your camera equipment up three flights of steps through 18 firedoors and hope that the bed is tolerable. Super the 24 wifi you just paid for is snail speed, can't load today's gallery of 7000 high res images, will do it Sunday night after three consecutive 16 hour days and your cross eyed after the 2 hour drive home in the peeing rain. 9am Monday the phone starts ringing- why aren't the pictures up yet! Hey ho at least the sun is shining and the dogs are pacing up and down the hallway demanding to know how long you'll be...Nope sorry didn't hear the phone ring

By Monday night the U18 starlet has created her Flippagram video of all her horses that weekend, updated her social media profile and got hundreds of like from all her chums. It's great that she left the watermark on all the pics to advertise the photographers. Just occasionally you realise that the riders proudly displaying their paid for pictures were the same ones stood next to you at the burger stand. Funny old world.

 

[rotters13]

Oh dear. Poor you - none of you sound like you enjoy what you do as a result. Perhaps suggest new career?

Do appreciate problem of people stealing photos. I do suspect it's a problem of ignorance however.

 

[mikedpe]

Oh dear. Poor you - none of you sound like you enjoy what you do as a result. Perhaps suggest new career?

Do appreciate problem of people stealing photos. I do suspect it's a problem of ignorance however.

Nobody is looking for sympathy, but understanding of why we are legitimately angry after working our butts off to find work stolen.

Good Enough to Steal - Good Enough to Deal

Mike

 

[spidge]

Rotters 13- you read that wrong, for the most part we love what we do. Trust me if you didn't you wouldn't last long in the event photography industry and your potential customers would soon make their own decisions. Those decisions impact very directly whether we succeed or find something else to do.

 

[dollymix]

Cracking post Meardsall-Millie.

Substitute getting horses ready for delivering and setting up trailer one day prior to the event, course walk to ensure we have chosen the most boring,banal and smallest jumps on the course with the most cluttered backgrounds shooting directly into the sun as we know riders love and respect us for that. Setup 600 folders with rider name, number and horse name ready to load the boring banal teeny weeny jump pictures in tomorrow if we can cajole the bikes collecting the jump judge score sheets to bring back the camera cards at least once every couple of hours and hopefully the same day. Check and hope staff will turn up on time with fully charged batteries and their game face on. Find that the pitch you have been allocated is completely unlevel, as far as it is physically possible from the scorers tent and guess what, you forgot the vouchers that you need to supply to the organiser for all the section winners you have provided prizes for. Just reprint them! Can you also get that special shot for the sponsor that won't actually pay you for that picture, you know on the jump your not covering but if you could just pop down, please. Didn't we tell you that the video company was here, oh sorry about that. Competition day get up about the same time as the riders to travel to event, hope that you put unleaded in the generator not diesel in your hurry, wonder which health and safety clipboard wizard will be at this event? Can we get the announcers to possibly announce us just once, after all we pay almost as much to be here as Jones the Jewellers who have been plugged 37 times already this morning. Oh goody, pleased to note that at least 5 of our favourite hobbyist photographers will also be on course all weekend diligently snapping away ready to publish on Facebook tonight with the watermark almost visible if you squint hard enough. 300 riders and 10 hours later your photographers re-appear, grumpy that the jump judge refused to move their pink and mauve Fiesta out of their shot, grumpy that the nearest portaloo was so close they would only miss 10 riders so they had to use the nearest bush. The poor guys on the stand then have to spend half an hour placating the riders with less pics than everyone else that it really was an unfortunate co-incidence that they got missed this week (as well as last week). Spend ages trying to get the showjumping photographer enthused about photographing the same 5 jumps another 300 times tomorrow. Indulge the regional U18 starlet whilst she patiently explains to all and sundry why she won't be buying pictures this week as nothing really grabs her- today's only a warmup round really for next week at ..... wherever! Try and adjudicate between various mummy and daughter squabbles throughout the day about which pictures they could both potentially live with and still remain in the same house in the country. Last few customers eventually leave the stand at 7pm because they are simply too tired to decide, answer several emails to explain when today's gallery will be online and several others to explain how to download images from Dropbox that you sent that afternoon when the wifi dongle briefly had a data signal. Oh you have a Hotmail account, check your trash folder please , the email I sent you will be in there, honestly. Hooray, finally decamp to pub half an hour after everyone else has left the field, please let there be a table, any table and explaining that you don't mind waiting half an hour before placing your food order. Check into Travelodge, cart all your camera equipment up three flights of steps through 18 firedoors and hope that the bed is tolerable. Super the 24 wifi you just paid for is snail speed, can't load today's gallery of 7000 high res images, will do it Sunday night after three consecutive 16 hour days and your cross eyed after the 2 hour drive home in the peeing rain. 9am Monday the phone starts ringing- why aren't the pictures up yet! Hey ho at least the sun is shining and the dogs are pacing up and down the hallway demanding to know how long you'll be...Nope sorry didn't hear the phone ring

By Monday night the U18 starlet has created her Flippagram video of all her horses that weekend, updated her social media profile and got hundreds of like from all her chums. It's great that she left the watermark on all the pics to advertise the photographers. Just occasionally you realise that the riders proudly displaying their paid for pictures were the same ones stood next to you at the burger stand. Funny old world.

EPIC response! Love it! Never laughed so much! Well done for matching like for like!

 

[spidge]

thank you Dollymix- it was meant to be very lighthearted and not a whinge

 

[dollymix]

thank you Dollymix- it was meant to be very lighthearted and not a whinge

It is brilliant and makes several very valid points in a very funny way! Round of applause from me

 

[meardsall_millie]

Touche Mr Spidge!

I think our underlying messages continue to be the same though don't they - we all work blimmin' hard, don't whinge and moan (particularly about each other) and be honest and pay your way!

X

 

[Tnavas]

Something all you photographers need to consider.

Were you asked to attend the show by the organisers. If not you are photographing people illegally. And you have no right to put copyright on your photos.

When a competitor signs the entry form they are only agreeing that the shows official photographer can take photos of them for use by the show organisers.

If you photographers are so peed off about the 'theft' of your photos use modern software to prevent people being able to copy your photos. If you don't use this software don't whine about your pictures being shared around.

 

[mikedpe]

Something all you photographers need to consider.

Were you asked to attend the show by the organisers. If not you are photographing people illegally. And you have no right to put copyright on your photos.

When a competitor signs the entry form they are only agreeing that the shows official photographer can take photos of them for use by the show organisers.

If you photographers are so peed off about the 'theft' of your photos use modern software to prevent people being able to copy your photos. If you don't use this software don't whine about your pictures being shared around.

Sorry but you are wrong, as the photographer they still have copyright protection.

What they most likely doing is breaking the conditions of entry to the venue.

As to copying images, it is modern software that has made it easier not more difficult. Just because you can does not mean you are allowed.

Mike

 

[Tnavas]

Sorry but you are wrong, as the photographer they still have copyright protection.

What they most likely doing is breaking the conditions of entry to the venue.

As to copying images, it is modern software that has made it easier not more difficult. Just because you can does not mean you are allowed.

Mike

There is software available that can prevent the majority of people from copying photos on line.

Unless you are the official photographer you do not have permission to take photos of people at the show and then to publish them on the internet - it is not legal! Especially if those people are children!

 

[TGM]

Whilst modern software allows photographers to disable the right click option which allows users to save images from the site to their hard disk, I can't see what can actually be done in terms of software to stop people screen printing images. If you can see images on the screen you can screenprint them and the only thing the photographer can do is put great big watermarks over the image to discourage copying or not put photos online at all (which would be a great loss for those of us who like to buy online at home). If you are aware of any software which can prevent screenprinting of images and still allows the customers to view online I'm sure all the photographers on here would be very interested indeed!

 

[mikedpe]

There is software available that can prevent the majority of people from copying photos on line.

Unless you are the official photographer you do not have permission to take photos of people at the show and then to publish them on the internet - it is not legal! Especially if those people are children!

Sorry but you are still wrong, there is no law that will make it illegal to publish photos to the internet.

As to the software as I said, it is now much easier, in fact they teach the 5 year olds at the local primary school how to do it.

Mike

 

[Twizzel]

There is software available that can prevent the majority of people from copying photos on line.

Unless you are the official photographer you do not have permission to take photos of people at the show and then to publish them on the internet - it is not legal! Especially if those people are children!

Wrong, take a look at this link to photographing people in a public place
http://lindsaydobsonphotography.com/blog/photographing-people-and-children-in-public-places/

Unless stipulated on entry to the event that photography is forbidden, nobody is breaking the law. Most event photographers (all that have conversed on this thread) will have been invited to cover the show.

I have disabled right click on my website however there is nothing to stop people print screening images so if you know of a piece of software to disable print screening then please do tell as the producer of that software is about to get a lot of custom from event togs!

 

[Tnavas]

As the majority of equestrian events are held on private land then you require the permission from the landowner/ show organiser to take pictures.

The competitor has only agreed to allow photos to be taken by the shows official photographer.

To be honest I can't understand why equine photographers get so uptight about their photos as the only person likely to buy the photo is the horses owner/rider and they are only likely to buy one or two.

Instead of whining make sure that photos have the photographers name AND contact details such as phone or email/ web site. Make the most of the advertising.

 

[TableDancer]

I wasn't going to bother to get involved with this thread but found myself thinking about it at 5am this morning so obviously need to get it off my chest

First, I do not steal photos and would never condone doing so - my daughter is one of the clearly much-despised Junior riders on the circuit and she knows never to steal and always asks tog if she can share a photo on FB even when they themselves have uploaded the photo and tagged her.

HOWEVER, I do think professional photographers do themselves no favours with their buying public once debates like these begin. I actually liked the OP and think it is a good idea. But as the debate has developed the very jaundiced view togs have of their customers becomes clearer and frankly I become more and more turned off.

1. With respect to Spidge's lengthy reply above, yes, you work hard - you earn money for it, this is your profession, there are many other professions which are hard work and often uncomfortable, presumably you do it because you enjoy it, if not why do you bother? Retrain and go and work in a nice warm office somewhere - same advice as I would give anyone who attempts to earn a living in the equestrian world and doesn't do it at least partly for the love...

2. With respect to competitors negotiating with you, surely a simple "no" will suffice, no need to get on your high horse about packed lunches. No harm in them asking, in my view, someone else might have said yes - I often try to negotiate with tradestands, nobody has ever been offended by it (to my knowledge) they are either interested in striking a deal or they are not, if not then fine it is my choice to either buy at original price or not to

3. With respect to the comment someone made earlier about prices of photos, I was amazed to see that certain togs seem to think it is ok to "racketeer" by charging more for photos at big Championships than other events!! I am probably more likely to buy photos at such a competition than at a run of the mill event, but certainly wouldn't expect to be charged more for the privelege, and will be checking prices carefully from now on to make sure this isn't the case.

Overall, I find many of the sentiments expressed on here by togs pretty distasteful, an interesting insight into the disdain with which you tend to view us, your customers, and it will make me less inclined to buy not more. I hadn't realised that when we look at photos on your monitors we should feel obliged to buy,whether we like them or not, and so I will be discouraging my daughter from even looking from now on. It is an interesting attitude to the retail business, which - like it or not - is the one you are in, but there we are!

 

[mikedpe]

Instead of whining make sure that photos have the photographers name AND contact details such as phone or email/ web site. Make the most of the advertising.

This is the old advertise where you stole from argument, sorry but not for me.

Mike

 

[TGM]

To be honest I can't understand why equine photographers get so uptight about their photos as the only person likely to buy the photo is the horses owner/rider and they are only likely to buy one or two.

Instead of whining make sure that photos have the photographers name AND contact details such as phone or email/ web site. Make the most of the advertising.

The reason they get uptight is because they are running a business which needs to make a profit! If someone illegally copies an image rather than buying it, then that reduces their income. And whilst each image may only bring in a few pounds, when illegal copying is widescale then they are losing a lot of money.

If someone stole a designer handbag from a shop would you say that was OK because it had the designer's logo on it, so it is good advertising for the designer when the thief parades the handbag out and about?

 

[mikedpe]

I wasn't going to bother to get involved with this thread but found myself thinking about it at 5am this morning so obviously need to get it off my chest

First, I do not steal photos and would never condone doing so - my daughter is one of the clearly much-despised Junior riders on the circuit and she knows never to steal and always asks tog if she can share a photo on FB even when they themselves have uploaded the photo and tagged her.

Photographers really appreciate people that take this approach.

HOWEVER, I do think professional photographers do themselves no favours with their buying public once debates like these begin. I actually liked the OP and think it is a good idea. But as the debate has developed the very jaundiced view togs have of their customers becomes clearer and frankly I become more and more turned off.

1. With respect to Spidge's lengthy reply above, yes, you work hard - you earn money for it, this is your profession, there are many other professions which are hard work and often uncomfortable, presumably you do it because you enjoy it, if not why do you bother? Retrain and go and work in a nice warm office somewhere - same advice as I would give anyone who attempts to earn a living in the equestrian world and doesn't do it at least partly for the love...

2. With respect to competitors negotiating with you, surely a simple "no" will suffice, no need to get on your high horse about packed lunches. No harm in them asking, in my view, someone else might have said yes - I often try to negotiate with tradestands, nobody has ever been offended by it (to my knowledge) they are either interested in striking a deal or they are not, if not then fine it is my choice to either buy at original price or not to

3. With respect to the comment someone made earlier about prices of photos, I was amazed to see that certain togs seem to think it is ok to "racketeer" by charging more for photos at big Championships than other events!! I am probably more likely to buy photos at such a competition than at a run of the mill event, but certainly wouldn't expect to be charged more for the privilege, and will be checking prices carefully from now on to make sure this isn't the case.

To cover the larger and higher classed events will often mean us bringing in photographers that charge us more i.e. they travel further, they have more expensive equipment to maintain etc. etc. which is why it costs more.

Overall, I find many of the sentiments expressed on here by togs pretty distasteful, an interesting insight into the disdain with which you tend to view us, your customers, and it will make me less inclined to buy not more. I hadn't realised that when we look at photos on your monitors we should feel obliged to buy,whether we like them or not, and so I will be discouraging my daughter from even looking from now on. It is an interesting attitude to the retail business, which - like it or not - is the one you are in, but there we are!

Do you find it bad when Waitrose and Tescos etc. take action against offenders, or warn about the actions. There is a large difference and that is that we want to work together with you the riders so that at the end of the day we both have something we want.

Mike

 

[vic07]

Eloquent reply table dancer! Couldn't agree more.

 

[meardsall_millie]

Do you find it bad when Waitrose and Tescos etc. take action against offenders, or warn about the actions. There is a large difference ahat is that we want to work together with you the riders so that at the end of the day we both have something we want.

Mike

No of course not.

Equally I can't remember the last time I saw a representative from Waitrose or Tesco on a supermarket shoppers internet forum sl*gging off their customers!

 

[TGM]

First, I do not steal photos and would never condone doing so - my daughter is one of the clearly much-despised Junior riders on the circuit and she knows never to steal and always asks tog if she can share a photo on FB even when they themselves have uploaded the photo and tagged her.

I think perhaps that's Spidge's long narrative above has perhaps not been taken in the humorous spirit he intended. I can assure you that he and his company are very supportive of the majority of junior riders, and indeed sponsors several local juniors, as well as taking the time and effort to help others. But like all areas in life, there are junior riders that give the others a bad name. It is obvious that the relationship between photographers and riders is a complicated and sometimes fraught one, and I hope discussions like this can help make each side see both sides of the coin.

 

[mikedpe]

No of course not.

Equally I can't remember the last time I saw a representative from Waitrose or Tesco on a supermarket shoppers internet forum sl*gging off their customers!

Actually the only ones we are complaining about are the ones that are not customers, as I have said a number of times the issue is not the 99% but the 1% and no these are not just young riders, it goes across the complete spectrum of riding ages and abilities.

Mike