Corking thread about airjackets over on COTH

[Santa_Claus]

it may well have done the following was someone's review which I should have clarified apologies! unfortunately I can't find the details (online) of what actual testing it went through in detail. Not sure if such details even exist online.

What I did find was a statement from the inventor who said the negative and unfriendly reaction from the industry (not riders/end users but other manufacturers of 'similar' equipment as presumably effectively it had the potential if further developed to take a large majority of the market away from the main big guns!) was so demoralising he decided to turn his attention to other areas/products which for me is sad as he passed the patent and licence ownership to the RDA so woof wear were never going to put money into developing further as they only had a licence to produce it.

 

[SpottedCat]

The difference is that stress testing data for alloys and cages is widely available, and extrapolation from other industries is entirely valid scientifically because the properties of these metals are well known, as is how they behave under stress. It's standard practice when designing buildings or bridges or roll cages in cars to design them using standard industry data for the properties of materials, the exo was designed by an engineer who used the known, standard 'fail limits' so we *have* evidence that they won't snap under stress. In the same way, when someone designs a bridge, they don't test all the components because it is known how they behave under stress as long as standard parameters are used and applied via accepted models.

I'm not really sure how or why anyone could or would argue this should or is different for the exo - that's just simply not how stress testing of that kind of product works.

 

[Mike007]

As I sit here reading these posts ,with my head aching and various parts of my body queueing up to tell me that they too ,took a hammering 3 weeks ago.You could flip a coin as to whether I will ever be able to hunt or jump again dueto the nerve damage.Perhaps I have simply taken one too many thumps on the head ,but I am no longer able to hold a definite and clear position on BP s and air jackets.I do know that in my case ,whilst it was not a full rotational,an air jacket would not have inflated in time to provide any spinal support on the initial impact.It would however have potentialy been of help with regardto secondary impacts from large ginger "notacobs" and flying telegraph poles.Fortunately I escaped the worst of these and Bob even has even learnt that stepping on me is to be avoided. So what essentialy saved me from a worse fate .I have put a lot of thought into this. I do not get unseated easily so when I have a fall it tends to be rough .Or in other words ,the probability of me having a fall is relatively low but the probability of it being serious is high. Conversely there are a great many riders out there who have the reverse situation and for them maybe an air jacket is a good thing. And any risks are far outweighed by the benefits.As an example a young friend parted company from her faithfull steed Dennis,due to him tripping on a tree root whilst competeing in a novice BE. Now Dennis is possibly one of the safest horses a novice could ever want to jump but the real risk to his rider is being unseated at speed.(No hunting experience and absolutely no defensive seat.so an air jacket has proved a worthwhile investment. I do not believe that any jacket would have prevented my own injuries .What has essentialy saved my life on a number of occasions is having a very short neckand whilst I admit to being on the heavy side, most of this is muscle .And as for stocks. When I first started racing a stock was nothing like the things you see riders wearing today. It was about 6 ft long and maybe 8 inches wide,generaly silk, and folded width ways four times .. This was wound round the neck and tied with a knot. The Idea being that under a direct load ,the neck would lock into the stock and prevent damage. I still think that a proper stock has a real safety role,but not the sort of nonsense stocks seen nowdays. Certainly worth thinking about if you have a long neck. However the biggest factor in survival has got to be proper training and preparation by first aiders and organisers.Things have generaly improved over the years but basic and frighteningly dangerous errors are still occuring on a regular basis.

 

[glamourpuss]

Gosh, this thread really is proving Paula's point.

The Exo is a BETA level 3 body protector. This is a standard on the materials that make it. As far as I can see they have impacted tested it. There does not appear a set standard for this impact testing in body cage body protectors. So one can only presume all tests were created by the selling company.

The air jackets cannot be BETA standard because they are not body protectors. The standard they have to achieve is CE testing.
There does not appear to be a set standard for any further testing on air jackets so one can only presume the further tests done on them, were created by the selling company (rather like the impact testing of the Exo, no?)

I don't understand why these threads become an argument about whether air jackets or Exo is best....it's like comparing cheese & chocolate they are 2 entirely different things aimed at doing 2 different things

 

[cptrayes]

The difference is that stress testing data for alloys and cages is widely available, and extrapolation from other industries is entirely valid scientifically because the properties of these metals are well known, as is how they behave under stress. It's standard practice when designing buildings or bridges or roll cages in cars to design them using standard industry data for the properties of materials, the exo was designed by an engineer who used the known, standard 'fail limits' so we *have* evidence that they won't snap under stress. In the same way, when someone designs a bridge, they don't test all the components because it is known how they behave under stress as long as standard parameters are used and applied via accepted models.

I'm not really sure how or why anyone could or would argue this should or is different for the exo - that's just simply not how stress testing of that kind of product works.

And yet at the same time air jacket detractors refuse to accept evidence from testing for motorcycle riders as in any way valid. Beats me.

 

[cptrayes]

.I do know that in my case ,whilst it was not a full rotational,an air jacket would not have inflated in time to provide any spinal support on the initial impact..

I haven't read the details of your fall, Mike, and wish you well in your recovery, but I wonder how you are so sure that the jacket would not have inflated?

Three weeks ago my horse did not get his front feet down, he was caught up in a hedge that he misjumped and landed in a heap. When I came off I was already close to the floor and yet my jacket was up by the time I hit dirt.

I bounced on it nicely, scrabbled out of his way as he scrabble to his feet in danger of kicking me, and when I stood up I actually found the "hug" very comforting for the shock I'm carrying a spare cannister now so that I can replace it at the next check.

I do hope that your nerve damage does not prove to be permanent and that HHO meanwhile gives you a bit of light relief while you recover. Best wishes with that.

 

[cptrayes]

I don't understand why these threads become an argument about whether air jackets or Exo is best....it's like comparing cheese & chocolate they are 2 entirely different things aimed at doing 2 different things

Because the really voiciferous detractor of air jackets, Kerilli, who is banned from posting about them as she says because of comments that she has made in the past, is a big fan of the EXO and her criticism of air jackets seems, to some of us, very illogical in comparison to her support for the EXO.

Surely though, both are aimed at protecting riders in the event of falls and not entirely different at all?

 

[SpottedCat]

And yet at the same time air jacket detractors refuse to accept evidence from testing for motorcycle riders as in any way valid. Beats me.

I don't think that's true at all. I think the problem is that you are comparing oranges and apples: with the exo the claims they make relate to something landing on you with a specific weight and velocity - let's say weight of X and velocity of Y. Now because it is made of known compounds which have known properties, it is entirely valid to increase the values of X and Y, and model this on the known compound with known properties to prove that in the event of a horse falling on you (or a landrover being driven onto your chest ), the chances of failure are xxxxx (whatever the probability is since nothing in the world is certain from a science point of view).

With airjackets, you are taking a whole heap of variables and applying them to a whole load of unknowns, whilst using data which doesn't extrapolate well from one scenario to another (due to the speed, fall types etc of motorcycles vs horses).

With the exo you have a whole load of fixed parameters (the properties of the metals and their known behaviour under stress) which you just don't have with the airjackets. You also have something which does the direct opposite of the exo - the exo stays the same when it is put under stress, it simply dissipates the energy into the ground. The air jacket inflates and then deflates - it changes. To think that this change doesn't cause movement of the thing inside the jacket (i.e. the person), and couldn't possibly affect an injury to the person (for example by moving a fracture site) seems to misunderstand how injuries react to movement - there's a reason one of the first things you are taught in first aid is to stabilise the patient and prevent them from moving.

It will be interesting to see the results of Reed Ayre's research since he has put a proposal together, and I hope it gets funding since it will help more than anything to move this argument along, especially since he is involved in spinal reconstruction.

 

[Santa_Claus]

To me motorbike testing on air jackets isn't relevant to riding as they are often very different types of falls. Very fast and often ground skimming due to height and speed on a bike whereas horse falls are generally slower but from a higher height with more of an impact.

When a new innovative product comes to market it is often up to the inventor to design tests to check its efficiency as simply tests do not exist.

Both exo and air jackets need/needed either more testing or results of said testing released to the public there is no debate on that point.

Part of the issue though is as the tests are not legally required and in turn very expensive to run most don't especially if the product sells without said tests especially for an already expensive product that would only get more expensive after additional test costs were added.

For example i would love to see research on air jackets done to see if 1) they limit a riders ability to tuck and roll 2) does the cord in anyway alter the riders trajectory of their fall especially for lighter riders keeping them closer to the horse and 3) is there potential for any spinal fractures recieved during the fall either prior or after the jacket inflating to be displaced by either the inflation OR deflation process. This is the biggest sticking point for me to currently not wear one. If evidence was provided that this chance was stupidly low I would probably be next inline to buy one. Interestingly some of this research was promised bear launch but has never come to fruition well has never been made public if it did happen anyway!

In regards exo testing as SC explained the alloys used would have been made to industry standards but yes details of stress fractures etc under specific loads would be highly desirable as would tests to show the neck wouldn't suffer hyperflexion in event of a fall.

Both products which are indeed very different and shouldnt really be conpared as they protect the rider from very different injury sets had the ability to change rider safety as we know it especially if aspects of both could have been combined. Sadly one has died a death due an unwelcome industry pushing out a potentially huge competitor before they could get started and the other has thrived due to its totally unique selling point and was welcomed to the industry as it only added sales rather than took them away due to competition body rules.

I am always open minded on new products and ideas and stay as such. Ie I wouldn't buy an air jacket now but may in the future if my concerns are allayed with concrete research.

I tried an exo but as said due to lower back issues I was limited in my mobility which would have effected my ability to tuck and roll so instead I wear a racesafe because its panels do not limit my flexibility. Infact most other BPs I can't wear for the same reason.

The exo x air jacket argument has as mentioned come up again and again although suspect will become less and less as you can only really get exos second hand now and due to zip design will become obsolete in a few years when the governing bodies up date to the newest BETA standards.

My reason to try the exo was I wa happy with the level I research conducted in so much that it could take a repeated large weight (to me if someone has had well over a ton of car on their chest for over an hour i believe it was that tells me it's pretty strong even if not hugely scientific!) and at that time my worst fear was a rotational (and still is!) so I first and foremost want if possible to protect myself from crush injuries. If I was someone more likely to have other more innocent falls and I wanted to protect myself from bruising and maybe a cracked rib or two then I naturally would have looked more to the air jackets as that is what they protect you from. Because as said both products protect you from very different things. He'll the exo may cause some bruising when protecting you from a crush but a air jacket can't protect you from a crush at all because their is no solid rigidity to it!

I am trying not to argue here but to discuss both sides equally if that is possible! Hell I've even written this entire reply on my phone which has taken a while an i will also blame for any spelling mistakes or random words! I think Kerilli has similar views to me but as she is banned from discussing the air jackets effectively she can only comment on the exo which makes her look very one sided.

I think the coth thread is interesting as is this discussion. Although close to personal attacks it hasn't quite or there yet so if continued to be balanced can be a beneficial tool to those still deciding on whether any of these products are for them!

 

[TarrSteps]

Perhaps that's the trick then, weighing your personal opinion of the risks you are most likely to be exposed to and the best equipment for the job?

I do think in a way these debates have a particularly heated feel now because of a general attitude that we can make riding, especially xc, "safe". We cannot, it is not. We can make it "safer" and how we do that is largely a personal decision. After all, we all see people who we would choose to make safer by making them ride something else or take some lessons!

I think it's great that people are putting the information out there - or pointing out the lack thereof - and encouraging lively debate but at the end of the day, in lieu of any definitive comparative tests, it's still down to what people feel is right for them.

What I do take umbrage with is incorrect information and I do think there is some of that floating around about air jackets (discussed very well above). I do meet people who feel the jacket will protect them from a serious crush injury as it will somehow "know" to stay inflated so long as they are under pressure or until they can be otherwise stabilised.

I guess one argument would be someone suffering a fall of that magnitude would likely be seriously injured or killed anyway, possibly no matter what protection they're wearing so that's just the luck of the draw.

 

[glamourpuss]

I'm intrigued by Reed Ayre & his involvement in spinal reconstruction - this is a strange term does he mean spinal column reconstruction surgery or spinal cord regeneration? I have no desire to join COTH as I waste enough time on the Internet but I would be interested in contacting him.

 

[kerilli]

Because the really voiciferous detractor of air jackets, Kerilli, who is banned from posting about them as she says because of comments that she has made in the past, is a big fan of the EXO and her criticism of air jackets seems, to some of us, very illogical in comparison to her support for the EXO.

Surely though, both are aimed at protecting riders in the event of falls and not entirely different at all?

Hello? Firstly, this thread was not about ME fgs. I didn't mention the Exo, or any other body protector, at all... you did.
Secondly - totally different technology, aims, materials, designs. Apples and Oranges indeed. My HS1 and my Kan are both aimed at protecting me in the event of a fall, but I don't view them as similar! They both have to do their job, that's all.
Thirdly, did you bother to read the part where I said I am riding in a Kan at the moment? I haven't mentioned the Exo on here for... oh, months and months, I guess. I forget. I am hardly banging on about either at the moment!
Fourthly, let's get to the physics. The Exo is specifically designed to protect the torso from crush injuries - a horse falling on top of you in a rotational. It's an additional set of ribs, protecting your own, basically. The airjackets do not have any internal bracing to stop the front from touching the back, therefore in the event of a full rotational and horse's weight fully on top of the rider, the only thing stopping that from happening is your ribcage. Yes, they have been advertised as giving protection against crushing injuries but the physics doesn't add up... and physics never lies. The best you can hope for is that, as when the ground is squishy, the squish of the airjacket is enough to save your torso. (For me, that hope is not enough to outweigh the possible disadvantages. for others, it is. Great. Vive la difference etc.) Also, we've all seen falls we didn't expect to be as innocuous as they were. I've had them myself. Sometimes you just get away with it... thank goodness!

Afaik there have been no serious injuries (rib, sternum, spine fractures and/or injuries to internal organs) sustained by a rider wearing a Kan or an Exo... I'll leave that one hanging...

 

[kerilli]

glamourpuss, Reed is on my friends list on Fb if you want to contact him, or pm me.
He does all sorts of things, I believe he is a 'rocket scientist' too, has been involved in Safety Testing of riding hats etc, working with metals at Colorado Mines... he's an event rider too, hence vested interest in all this. At a guess I'd say the former meaning because of the materials he has worked with, but I really don't know, I will ask him though.

 

[MiaBella]

One consultant radiologist I knew (so he had spent a long time looking at x-rays of broken backs etc) was insistent that his wife wore a body protector (standard, not exo nor air jacket) and she was mainly a happy hacker. It wasn't that the body protector would stop the injuries occurring (as is mentioned on the COTH thread - you can land on your feet and still have a broken back...) but would keep her stable and prevent any injury from becoming worse through movement etc. That is my fear with the air jackets, on their own they don't offer any support once they start to deflate - and if you have one on top of your standard body protector then do they really offer that much extra protection?

I had a rotational fall and walked away with a broken elbow, luckily the ground was quite soft and the fence wasn't large. It was many years ago when body protectors were thin bits of polesterine so I'm not sure that really helped or not (though did find a stud mark in it so it saved me from being studded!) - the problem is you can't compare one fall with another, too many variables.

As others have said, if you feel happier with an air jacket then spend your pennies wisely and try before you buy.

 

[SpottedCat]

I'm intrigued by Reed Ayre & his involvement in spinal reconstruction - this is a strange term does he mean spinal column reconstruction surgery or spinal cord regeneration? I have no desire to join COTH as I waste enough time on the Internet but I would be interested in contacting him.

Honestly - I lifted it from the COTH thread - post #55:

Actually, I can probably provide a better justfication as to how and why airvests cause spinal injuries than the makers can in defending their products. I have already put together a fundamental outline for a research program that I will submit.

And I do research in spinal reconstruction.

 

[HotToTrot]

the Exo did undergo testing, as S-C says, as did the Kan, which I am using for xc at the moment. All body protectors have to undergo mandatory testing (CE Certification) in order to be acceptable to BETA and to BE. cptrayes, what on earth makes you think that any of them don't?

There is a dissenting voice on that thread, actually, a medic. I didn't post this link because they all say things I want to hear, but because I thought it was an interesting debate.
I have huge respect for Reed in particular because he works right at the cutting edge of safety testing etc.

edited to add: if the Exo snaps, you can guarantee your own ribs would have snapped far earlier, so you'd already be a meat sandwich between the horse and the ground...

My exo snapped once. I had a rotational in it. Horse didn't land on me, but I hit the ground at one heck of a rate of knots. And my view was indeed that, had the exo not been there, my ribs wld have snapped instead. Can't comment on what the result would have been had I been wearing a different BP, of course!

 

[kerilli]

My exo snapped once. I had a rotational in it. Horse didn't land on me, but I hit the ground at one heck of a rate of knots. And my view was indeed that, had the exo not been there, my ribs wld have snapped instead. Can't comment on what the result would have been had I been wearing a different BP, of course!

Cripes. "one fall and out" indeed. Thank heavens you were okay. Jeeez.
That's how I view the Exos anyway, as an extra set of ribs to go before yours do... But I'm no scientist obv..!

 

[Lolo]

From a very early on engineering point of view, steel and the way it behaves and deforms under extreme loading in multiple scenarios is something that has been extensively tested and well documented. It's not an unknown variable because it's so widely used it needs to be known to be safe. So the calculations for the theoretical safety of the design would probably not been miles beyond what I'm studying at the moment, and I'm only a 3rd year.

The same applies for most BPs- they are made using materials that have been tested extensively. Because if it's considered a suitable material for impacts from equestrian activities (known to be a highly dangerous sport...) it will have been investigated for suitability in other areas.

Air jackets don't have the same proviso and to me provide a totally different type of protection, against minor injuries. I don't like the uncontrolled deflation- and the fact it is totally uncontrollable. If the person does have a spinal injury, you have to move them considerably to remove the jacket. I don't like the inwards inflation of the P2 either, but that's purely personal.

 

[glamourpuss]

I suspect Reed would get funding for his research from most medical groups in the UK. Sadly by the statements he has put out there already his research would be very likely to be pulled apart in any peer review as 'flawed'
It sounds like he is determined to show that air jackets cause injury. The UK is very hot on this following the debacle where a certain doctor was determined to show a link between the MMR & autism ;-)
For the record the spinal surgeon I discussed air jackets with works at a large trauma centre, specialising in spinal fractures & spine stabilization. He has done over 3,000 major spinal operations & to date has had 23 peer reviewed scientific publications. This I know as a fact & isn't just something he told me on the Internet

 

[meardsall_millie]

If the person does have a spinal injury, you have to move them considerably to remove the jacket.

I don't want to get into the whole air jacket debate because, quite frankly, until some additional research/evidence is published, I'm bored with the whole 'recycling the same arguments time and time again' thing that's going on

However, with respect, if someone has a spinal injury, I'm guessing that they would simply be cut out of the air jacket rather than twisted or pulled around to get them undressed - and if it's a problem to get them out of the air jacket, then it's going to be an even bigger problem to get them out of a more tightly fitting BP?

 

[Lolo]

But you'd have to wit for it to deflate, or essentially pop it? I know the sides are less inflated, but they still are to some extent?

And sorry I was being so good until someone suggested that the Exo's structure hadn't been properly tested. Which made me a bit as steel is stupidly easy to test in virtually any configuration, either by hand or by computer program I shouldn't have added the last bit!

 

[SpottedCat]

But you'd have to wit for it to deflate, or essentially pop it? I know the sides are less inflated, but they still are to some extent?

And sorry I was being so good until someone suggested that the Exo's structure hadn't been properly tested. Which made me a bit as steel is stupidly easy to test in virtually any configuration, either by hand or by computer program I shouldn't have added the last bit!

TBH, if the paramedics needed to get to you, they'd take a pair of scissors to it any which way, sure they might well wreck it, but that'd be the least of your worries!

 

[glamourpuss]

Meardsall Millie you are right, they would cut an air jacket if it was needed to remove it. TBH I would happily be able to provide primary survey trauma x-rays with a patient wearing an air jacket & ordinary BP. I wouldn't be able to do this if a patient was wearing an Exo ( the shoulder aspect of the Exo covers the crucial C7-T1 region of the cervical spine) & the cage means a chest x-ray would be impossible.
As part of ATLS secondary survey the patient would then be log rolled with spine alignment held & all clothing removed.

 

[foxy1]

The exo can be taken apart with alan keys

 

[glamourpuss]

Paramedics would just cut whatever clothing/air jacket they needed to.
Other than that the premise of most Pre hospital care is to stabilise them as much as needed in terms of airway (with cervical spine protection) breathing & ventilation & circulation prevent disability by placing on a spinal board & spinal stabilisation then get the patient to the nearest & most appropriate hospital.
In a lot of trauma cases a paramedic i know calls it 'scoop & run'

 

[glamourpuss]

Foxy 1 sorry can't quote as on phone.....and A&E doctors know this? And have Allen key to hand?

 

[foxy1]

there's an allen key in the material on the outside of the jacket, both sides, under an enormous green cross with instuctions how to do it

 

[glamourpuss]

Foxy 1 have you ever been a resus trauma situation? Unlikely that a completely unhorsey doctor/nurse would think to look for Allen keys or green crosses. Particularly if you've got a patient who is unconscious who you are trying to stabilise.
But still moot point, the Exo will be all but extinct in a couple of years.

 

[foxy1]

really? I'd have thought they would be being very careful not to move you etc. unless your heart had stopped, which isn't very likely?

 

[SpottedCat]

The exo comes apart in such a way as to become a back board, and when you wear one you have to declare at the secretaries tent so the paramedics are pre warned. If you're going BE then they know how to get you out, if you're going PC you have to provide the paramedics with an Allen key yourself.

Frankly the anecdotes re medical professionals are just that, anecdotes, and we all know the plural of anecdote is not data All the paramedics/doctors/surgeons I've spoken to think you'd be a bit nuts not to wear an exo - doesn't make them any more right than the ones who think you're nuts to wear one, does it?!