Corking thread about airjackets over on COTH

[glamourpuss]

Foxy doctors need access to a patients chest for more than just if the heart has stopped beating. As I said earlier in a trauma situation X-rays are needed of a lateral c-spine, chest & Pelvis pretty damn quick....the trauma team all wear lead aprons so they can continue working on a patient as we x-ray. If a patient hasn't been removed from an Exo then 2 of those series of x-rays can't be performed. Chest x-rays are needed for more than just rib fractures!
The Exo cannot claim to be a 'back board' whatever that is supposed to mean?. It cannot provide the stabilisation along the spine as a spinal board does...it isn't long enough.
The Exo is an excellent piece of kit for protecting the chest region in crush injury falls. However it is a clunky piece of equipment that most riders didn't like the look & feel of.
Also you can still die pretty quickly from hypovolemic shock caused by haemorrhage from pelvic or long bone fractures...mind you we'd need a full body suit to protect against those
I fully, fully support further testing on air jackets....honestly. I would love to do it myself
Didn't H&H report that some equestrian safety council had tested the Point 2 & they found that they DID provide further protection than just a BP alone & DIDN'T cause further injury.

 

[glamourpuss]

I've found the article, it was reported back in 2010....but as the tests were commissioned by Point 2, they could be open to allegations of being flawed

 

[Nicnac]

This is fascinating, but going around in circles.

Having worked with high level spinal cord injured people for a few years up until just over a year ago I am pretty clued up that particular subject however not be any means an expert.

I personally wear a BP of whatever type (normal, cage, air) to protect myself from long lasting damage i.e. paralysis. Most other injuries are repairable to some degree when not fatal.

There are a number of riders who have unfortunately incurred a spinal cord injury over the years. What BP, if any, were they wearing? Has any study been done correlating injuries incurred with type of BP worn and type of fall?

 

[kerilli]

However, with respect, if someone has a spinal injury, I'm guessing that they would simply be cut out of the air jacket rather than twisted or pulled around to get them undressed - and if it's a problem to get them out of the air jacket, then it's going to be an even bigger problem to get them out of a more tightly fitting BP?

I think the big problem here (and this applies to ANYTHING they're wearing) is that people don't know what they've done, and nor do the paramedics. Look at Mike007's thread to see what they did with him (collar wouldn't fit, etc)! Karen O'Connor had a burst fracture and a compression fracture (T4 and T5 I think) and yet the first thing she said after the fall (acc to the COTH thread) was that she wanted the airjacket off... I'm sure the same thing has happened with regular bps too, don't get me wrong. But it's a difficult situation.

Nicnac, it hasn't, but it should be done. Again though, too many variables I guess. We need testing, crash test dummies (CAN they even be calibrated to test for likely spinal injuries? I have no idea), and that's all very expensive. Testing is the answer, so money is the answer.

 

[kerilli]

Ah, God Reed has spoken on the other thread, after someone asked about the Exo possibly snapping:

"No. Contrary to popular thought and the mis-information that other riders and folks in power spread, magnesium does not act like steel.

The atomic arrangement of magnesium alloys prevent ductile failure and so it will flex but spring back. If it is flexed to the point of breaking, is shatters. It is a perfect cage alloy (e.g. long used in auto frames etc)."

So now we know. And I'm confident enough that if it gets to the point of shattering, without it I would already have been a pizza.

 

[HotToTrot]

Ah, God Reed has spoken on the other thread, after someone asked about the Exo possibly snapping:

"No. Contrary to popular thought and the mis-information that other riders and folks in power spread, magnesium does not act like steel.

The atomic arrangement of magnesium alloys prevent ductile failure and so it will flex but spring back. If it is flexed to the point of breaking, is shatters. It is a perfect cage alloy (e.g. long used in auto frames etc)."

So now we know. And I'm confident enough that if it gets to the point of shattering, without it I would already have been a pizza.

The bit on mine that snapped was the horizontal bar part holding the catch at one side. It seemed wobbly, so my dad went in with a scalpel and discovered that the side part had snapped completely.

 

[glamourpuss]

But Kerilli that is just looking at magnesium on an atomic level, all well & good but surely there are other aspects to be considered such as the machined shape of the material as this will surely effect how the individual atoms respond to stress as well.
Also ^ it looks like somebody is saying that actually their Exo did snap [shrug]

I was talking about this last night with my OH. We were discussing the 'claim' that is thrown about, that the CEO had a car parked on his chest whilst wearing an Exo. Our conclusion is that, in the absence of any any photographic evidence, total bull!
Firstly it would be impossible to park a whole car on someone....that is most obvious. Car too big the whole of it won't fit on a chest. So that must mean it was just one wheel. So he didn't have the weight of the whole car on him but just the weight of that part of the axle.
Then secondly how did they get this wheel on him. They couldn't drive it on, I would say that that would involve a 1 way ticket to 'rose cottage' with a squished head or pelvis.
So maybe they winched the car up, person placed themselves under wheel car was lowered.
Which leads me to my final point. Why? So this CEO comes up with a fabulous advertising coup, goes to all the effort (& no doubt health & safety paperwork) of doing the stunt.....& not one scrap of hard evidence exists. Not a single photo, not a single video on you tube. Nothing mentioned on the website.
In fact you can google extensively & the only 'evidence' that this happened is on pages from the H&H archives where it is trotted out as a anecdote to how strong the Exo is. Sorry that's not good enough for me, I'm sticking with my it's Bull explanation

Another thing from that thread is Reed saying that a hyperfexion/extension injury can be turned into an axial loading injury. I REALLY can't wait to read his proof of that one.

 

[Santa_Claus]

There was a photo I remember seeing it! it was one wheel yes agreed but that will still be a very significant amount and If i remember rightly a ramp was used to get it on so yes not dropped on but it was 'parked' there for some time!

 

[HotToTrot]

But Kerilli that is just looking at magnesium on an atomic level, all well & good but surely there are other aspects to be considered such as the machined shape of the material as this will surely effect how the individual atoms respond to stress as well.
Also ^ it looks like somebody is saying that actually their Exo did snap [shrug]

I was talking about this last night with my OH. We were discussing the 'claim' that is thrown about, that the CEO had a car parked on his chest whilst wearing an Exo. Our conclusion is that, in the absence of any any photographic evidence, total bull!
Firstly it would be impossible to park a whole car on someone....that is most obvious. Car too big the whole of it won't fit on a chest. So that must mean it was just one wheel. So he didn't have the weight of the whole car on him but just the weight of that part of the axle.
Then secondly how did they get this wheel on him. They couldn't drive it on, I would say that that would involve a 1 way ticket to 'rose cottage' with a squished head or pelvis.
So maybe they winched the car up, person placed themselves under wheel car was lowered.
Which leads me to my final point. Why? So this CEO comes up with a fabulous advertising coup, goes to all the effort (& no doubt health & safety paperwork) of doing the stunt.....& not one scrap of hard evidence exists. Not a single photo, not a single video on you tube. Nothing mentioned on the website.
In fact you can google extensively & the only 'evidence' that this happened is on pages from the H&H archives where it is trotted out as a anecdote to how strong the Exo is. Sorry that's not good enough for me, I'm sticking with my it's Bull explanation

Another thing from that thread is Reed saying that a hyperfexion/extension injury can be turned into an axial loading injury. I REALLY can't wait to read his proof of that one.

Well, the part of mine that snapped was at one side - not sure if you have seen an exo in detail, it has two catches holding it in place at each side. So, it wasn't the main frame over my torso which went, and the other side was still intact, which would have given me some protection as it retained a degree of structural integrity. I hit the ground very very hard and even managed a bruise underneath where my hat was.... I am pretty sure that if the exo had not snapped, one of my bones wld have!

 

[glamourpuss]

I'm glad you've seen in but I haven't & I swear I cannot find any evidence of it all (which is weird when you consider the power of the Internet) so I'm sorry it's still firmly sitting in the bull category in my head.
BUT I've said before & i will say it again the premise of the Exo is excellent. I have no doubt that it would protect the thorax region in certain types of fall. No doubt at all. I did try one, but it was too clunky & I found it uncomfortable so not for me.
However if in the defence of Air jackets we are abiding by the law that 'the plural of anecdote does not equal fact' then I think this law should also apply to other safety equipment including the Exo.

 

[soulfull]

As an 'older' more fragile rider, a first responder with the ambulance service as well as medic doing first aid cover at equine events I at first had great reservations about the air jacket and stability issues.
However I weighed up my situation as an average RC rider with a new and young horse who had recently started bucking and bought one. Mostly because any fall was most likely to be an impact and I nearly always land on my back causing minor or moderate injury and I knew I was highly unlikely to wear my race safe everyday as I get way too hot as it is.
Therefore for me nothing is perfect but the p2 is better than nothing which is what the alternative would be
From handling fallers as a medic I would much rather see an air jacket than nothing ideally over a
Good bp to keep stability and offer the best protection that is easily available ATM
Our sport is never going to be safe!!!! So we need to look at our individual needs for each discipline and choose what is best and most practical (likely to used)

 

[Lolo]

But Kerilli that is just looking at magnesium on an atomic level, all well & good but surely there are other aspects to be considered such as the machined shape of the material as this will surely effect how the individual atoms respond to stress as well.
Also ^ it looks like somebody is saying that actually their Exo did snap [shrug]

I don't really want to enter back in here, but this is utter bull, as you like to put it

The atomic level explains why things work. It's not separate from the material, it is how the material works. I can't comprehend how someone who is in a job like yours (and I understand the job pretty well, and am not convinced by how it makes you an expert on this subject anyway) doesn't understand the very basics of physics!!

On a different note, materials like the one the Exo is made from are tested pre and post production. They are known materials as well. You can test them in reality with crushing forces (both high impact and long term, and if it stands to one it tends to do very well in the other with few exceptions) in most labs. I suppose if I wanted to, I could do my dissertation on these products, looking at how they withstand various forces. It is a pity I didn't think of it sooner tbh! I can open a textbook and have 3 chapters about magnesium alloys and how they work and the significance of heating, casting, rolling, being wrought and the benefits of each type of production. Then I can input this data into a computer and simulate the scenarios from there. Then test it in reality and find that (no surprise) the results are the same.

I don't know why I'm defending this, think it's more defending engineering! My sister doesn't wear an Exo, and I have no vested (nice pun?) interest in it, and the same for airbags. I like science, and I like good practise.

 

[glamourpuss]

Lolo, you are right I am no expert on Physics or engineering. The physics I endured was way back when dinosaurs walked the earth & I did my degree. If you are saying that that little thought process that fired off in my head was wrong....fine. Especially as you seem happy to back your information up with fact & research not Internet anecdote

HOWEVER I do take offence at the implication in your post that in some way I am not qualified to comment on this thread because you know what my job is. I can assure you you do NOT know what my role is, you have no comprehension of what I have studied to both PGc & Masters level....or maybe if you do you would like to come & present the tutorial I'm giving to junior doctors tomorrow!
Have I been in trauma resus situations...yes, more times than I care to remember. Have I witnessed & studied Pre hospital care....yes, both with ordinary ambulance & HEMS service. So please don't try & say I don't know what I'm talking about with respect to that.

 

[glamourpuss]

Actually, you know what? I too am out of this 'discussion'. I should've learnt after I had to change my username after a certain banned member sent me PM's with a threatening tone
Any comment I make with respect to trauma, trauma care & the etiology of injury I will back up with references to published research if people want. I think if you read my posts there is very little, if any 'I heard that....', 'somebody told me....' 'Rumour has it....' Or quoting other keyboard warriers. my posts come from my own knowledge, do i know everything...no but i dont believe i pretend to either just to be on some sort of mission. Maybe I'll just leave that one out there.

From now on I'm not going to post on Air jacket threads. I have made a decision which I believe increases my safety when riding cross country. I'm happy with it & until someone can provide me with peer reviewed research (NOT internet anecdote) that it is not the right choice I will stick to it.

 

[Jesstickle]

Wow. I had no idea choice of BP and air jacket was so contentious

Or that people were so vociferously on one side or the other. It's like Twilight only with team hit air and team exo instead of team vampire

I think that's how Twilight works anyway. I've never watched it

 

[kerilli]

Oooh, can we be the sparkly ones? tbh I'm not particularly 'Team Exo' (especially since at the moment I'm not using mine). I'm Team Show Us The Test Results...
On which topic, I am reliably informed (argh, that again...) that BETA did do testing on airjackets, as they promised, but has never published the results. I'm not sure who BETA works for - the industry members, or the public who buys the products? Is it possible to ask for the results of that testing to be made public? I won't say the rest of what I was told as I have NO way of knowing if it is true or not.
HotToTrot, must admit I had assumed (and I KNOW how stupid that is, always) that the bit on your Exo that snapped was at the side... since you're still here! Do you have any pics of the damage? I'd love to see them please, either on here or by email. Ta. email is kerilli at gmail dot com if you do have any pics.

 

[SpottedCat]

Probably not relevant since the main parties are not reading/being involved any more, but I saw the landrover on the guy wearing the exo. In the actual real flesh. He was at a big event, there for hours wearing it. One wheel of the landy on him, apparently someone drove it onto him (someone he really trusted I guess?!). I didn't take a pic as it was in he days before camera phones and digicams were as ubiquitous as they are today.

They also had someone in one and were inviting people to jump on their chest, which I duly did. Ok, so I'm not exactly heavy, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to try that with someone wearing an air jacket!

As always, it depends what you're worried about. For me, the crush injuries which are killers worry me most. I don't give a stuff about bruising, but then I wouldn't since I spend a good part of every week playing a full contact sport on roller skates. Next up on my list of concerns is limb fractures as I couldn't work - but there's nothing on the market which will prevent those, and anyway I think it's fun to have someone try and floor you on a pair of skates, so... *shrug*. If I backed/rode loads of youngsters, I'd buy a air jacket no question. I think they're a good additional bit of kit. I object strongly to all the misleading advertising (is it two or three ads that the ASA has upheld now against the better known equine brand?!), and I think TS makes a valid point that people for some inexplicable reason think these things make the sport safe, which they don't and it isn't.

 

[HotToTrot]

Oooh, can we be the sparkly ones? tbh I'm not particularly 'Team Exo' (especially since at the moment I'm not using mine). I'm Team Show Us The Test Results...
On which topic, I am reliably informed (argh, that again...) that BETA did do testing on airjackets, as they promised, but has never published the results. I'm not sure who BETA works for - the industry members, or the public who buys the products? Is it possible to ask for the results of that testing to be made public? I won't say the rest of what I was told as I have NO way of knowing if it is true or not.
HotToTrot, must admit I had assumed (and I KNOW how stupid that is, always) that the bit on your Exo that snapped was at the side... since you're still here! Do you have any pics of the damage? I'd love to see them please, either on here or by email. Ta. email is kerilli at gmail dot com if you do have any pics.

Sorry - I did take pic, but now have new BB, so lost it. The whole lot had completely snapped off. We just pulled it clean out of the casing once the fabric had been cut open.

I have since bought another; faith in them undiminished!

 

[kerilli]

Sorry - I did take pic, but now have new BB, so lost it. The whole lot had completely snapped off. We just pulled it clean out of the casing once the fabric had been cut open.

I have since bought another; faith in them undiminished!

Ah, okay. ta.

That's interesting Tilly. I've seen the pic once but that's all. If it was a publicity stunt, it was a brave one, no question.
Ditto about the crush injuries... and spinal injuries of course.

 

[teapot]

I think I remember seeing it too.

Genuine question (I don't ride enough let alone jump/hunt to warrant a new bp or air jacket) but I've always wondered wherever the air jackets have been tested by having a force land on them at speed from a height?

Just thinking of how much protection they'd actually give when say for example, a rider lands on the landing side of a fence with jacket inflated & can't move for whatever reason, and the horse follows on behind? We've all seen falls where a rider's been lucky to get out the way of a horse finally scrabbling/falling over a fence...

Even from my basic A-level Physics - speed + height = higher downward force. In the same way you can push your foot on a balloon without popping it but jump on it from a height...

Just a musing

 

[Daytona]

Someone asked if anyone knew someone who had injury falling off in air jacket

Yes my sister fell off at XC fence in 2 point air jacket the lanyard thing did not deploy and she was dragged under the horse for quite a distance until the jacket actually was ripped from her back

She was badly bruised and shaken up , I guess it could of been a lot worse had she been hit in face my hoof.

Anyway she rang 2 point who swiftly replaced the jacket along with her ripped open new ariat riding boots and told her they were sorry , nothing more was said.

 

[kerilli]

Someone asked if anyone knew someone who had injury falling off in air jacket

Yes my sister fell off at XC fence in 2 point air jacket the lanyard thing did not deploy and she was dragged under the horse for quite a distance until the jacket actually was ripped from her back

She was badly bruised and shaken up , I guess it could of been a lot worse had she been hit in face my hoof.

Anyway she rang 2 point who swiftly replaced the jacket along with her ripped open new ariat riding boots and told her they were sorry , nothing more was said.

Cripes. I am shocked. That could have been horrific. I'd never heard of that happening.
I've wondered whether the lanyard pulling could change the trajectory of the fall, but not considered that the lanyard might not detach at all. Of course, this is apparently why they are 100% disallowed for racing, NO chance of ANYTHING that tethers the jockey to the horse in any way.

Injuries falling off in an airjacket - I'd better not list the ones I know of. Of course there are also countless injuries from falls with no airjacket... and what galls me is NOT KNOWING whether the airjackets are incapable of causing harm, or not... that really is all. I don't have a vendetta, I just want the DATA...

 

[Mike007]

My first question would be,Was it a genuine point2 gas cylinder and had it been fitted corrrectly?Nothing is fool proof. I trained and am still a qualified B license aircraft engineer. There are so many weird and wonderfull ways for things to go wrong .It doesnt matter whether itis an air jacket ,exo or ordinary BP and not even a Martin Baker MK 7 Ejector seat would save you every time. There is always a set of circumstances that will find a way round any protection devised.There are things that an air jacket does wonderfully,but there are limitations .They do help spread a point load over a wider area (as does a BP ) but if the overall load is simply too great ,a crush injury occurs. Exos are also not without their faults. On aircraft,Magnesium alloys are used in big lumps liike gearbox castings ,or in non critical areas because the stuff is brittle, It will resist a lot of load but once it starts to deform even slightly ,it goes with a bang.Yes you probably can rest a landrover wheel on one but would yoy drop that weight on it from even a couple of inches,And as for if the thing is scratched and scored ,dont even go there! All these items can and will fail catastrophicly on occasions...I think riders need to put a lot more thought into their style of riding and its likely outcome....By this ,I dont mean good or bad riding. But had for example I been sitting on a racing saddle when I had the accident(Perish the thought ,My 56 yo fat lump on one )Iwould not have played high speed lawn darts. I would have left the plate fairly horizontaly in a trajectory where A) I would have decelerated a lot more gradualy (Barring hitting any solid objects.B) a BP or air jacket would have worked at its best ,and C) there would have been less risk of clumsy ginger hooves.I am not suggesting that we all go mad and ride on racing saddles but perhaps modern saddles have given a false sense of security ....We all seem to be looking for a magic gadget to get us out of trouble but I cant help thinking that we are ignoring a lot of far more relevant factors.

 

[Daytona]

Yes was defo a genuine cylinder as for fitted correctly well fitted as shown by seller and she had been using jacket for a good while and it had gone off a few times before. 2 point just said it malfunctioned

I totally agree with you nothing is fool proof

It's about assessing risk and trying to reduce it best we can.

I am getting a hit air for my Xmas to use on horse & motorbike. My fireman friend who has attended many biking accidents said those with them jackets on had far less spinal injuries. That's all the proof I need to buy one.

 

[Lolo]

I don't get why it hasn't been tested. It's hardly going to be difficult to simulate- you work out the weight of an average horse, the average velocity from the most common rotational falls as the horse hit's the ground and then you have your momentum. Then, you just do that in a structures lab... I mean, they do similar tests for lots of things.

It would be a really interesting project- studying how different materials and structures dissipate high-impact loads and the relevance of these to crush injuries. You could use sensors on a dummy's chest to measure what gets to them as well... Hmm. Regretting not thinking of this earlier, it would be fun and relevant to my degree!

 

[Mike007]

I don't get why it hasn't been tested. It's hardly going to be difficult to simulate- you work out the weight of an average horse, the average velocity from the most common rotational falls as the horse hit's the ground and then you have your momentum. Then, you just do that in a structures lab... I mean, they do similar tests for lots of things.

It would be a really interesting project- studying how different materials and structures dissipate high-impact loads and the relevance of these to crush injuries. You could use sensors on a dummy's chest to measure what gets to them as well... Hmm. Regretting not thinking of this earlier, it would be fun and relevant to my degree!

If you start to consider how many variables there are ,you will quickly realise why. It would be an absolute nightmare .

 

[Lolo]

If you start to consider how many variables there are ,you will quickly realise why. It would be an absolute nightmare .

But to me, the alternative is selling a product that's not proven safe for purpose. It's not like they're selling extra-grippy riding gloves! I'm not saying it's unsafe, btw. Just it's not proven to be safe, nor failsafe.

Equally, while there are thousands of factors to play around with, surely the very basic test is 'can this body protector/ airbag withstand the high-impact loading that has been taken from your average rotational fall'? You can then develop and enhance and introduce those variables and discuss it in more depth. The very basic premise of can it withstand what it needs to is surely not that complicated?

I understand some of the variables, and think they could be taken into account eventually though...

 

[Mike007]

But to me, the alternative is selling a product that's not proven safe for purpose. It's not like they're selling extra-grippy riding gloves! I'm not saying it's unsafe, btw. Just it's not proven to be safe, nor failsafe.

Equally, while there are thousands of factors to play around with, surely the very basic test is 'can this body protector/ airbag withstand the high-impact loading that has been taken from your average rotational fall'? You can then develop and enhance and introduce those variables and discuss it in more depth. The very basic premise of can it withstand what it needs to is surely not that complicated?

I understand some of the variables, and think they could be taken into account eventually though...

I think the short answer is that there is no such thing as an "average rotational fall".You also seem to miss the point regarding airbags and BP s.They do NOT withstand the loading. They spread the load over as wide an area as possible. They certainly are not rigid enough within themselves to provide resistance to loading. The more evenly the load is spread both above and below the torso,the greater chance there is of surviving unscathed.These items function by allowing the wearer to sink into them to a certain degree(and also hard objects like poles and hooves).The body protectors and airbags most certainly can withstand the impact of a rotational fall but that does not therefore mean that their contents can.

 

[TarrSteps]

There is also the issue of who pays. Air jackets seem to be doing good business without more testing. . .where is the incentive? As Mike says (and very much agree with your point about the risks of riding and magic gadgets) any testing will necessarily show that in many possible scenarios the person inside the bp will NOT survive unscathed. This is not necessarily a failure of the produce, simply a natural result of having an 500+kg missile going 500+mpm land on you.

All you're ever doing is diminishing the risks and WHAT risks you control is largely down to personal choice. Bp's are not under any legal obligation to test, so long as they don't make untrue claims (as one maker has already been reminded), and the argument can always be made that, unlike say, safety equipment addressing driving risks, riders have no one to ultimately blame but themselves if it all goes **** up.

Is it not somewhat like calling for supplement testing? It is actually not in the companies best interests to do tests as there is a good chance people hope the products work better than they actually do. (There are also issues of regular involved, which don't apply to bp's.)

I understand that the stakes are much higher for safety equipment but the principle is the same.

And yes, I am a cynic.

 

[TarrSteps]

To clarify, bp's must meet specific safety standards - and organisations like BE can insist on one standard over another - so in that way they are regulated and tested. My point is that there may be no reason to test over and above those standards.