Corruption in Showing....

I think it may depend on what type of showing you are doing. I can be certain that at my Mares Breed show this summer, it was not who was with the horse :D It was the first time I had taken her and she won one class, came second in another and the judge asked me to make sure to go back for the championship (I didn't it was too late :( ) The girl who came first, in the class we came second in, was also there as a first timer. So there is still fairness, with some breeds. :)
 
Here's a laugh for you :D

At the Shetland Pony Breed Show last year the winner of the HOYS ridden class was won by a pony that the judge had backed and schooled. The owner of said pony had checked out with NPS and Grandstand Media and both allowed him to enter. The pony got disqualified in the end because another pony from the same owner went to the judges for a while. The best bit - the owner rang the judge to tell her he was entering and had cleared it with the relevent societies. Judge then rang owner 2 weeks before the show to say she wasnt comfortable judging him.

Show day comes and no one has really bothered to enter the ridden class because of what was obviously going to happen. There are also suspicions - but no proof that has been admitted to - that another pony in the HOYS class and that won the other classes and championship was also backed and schooled by the Judge.

The owner admitted all of the above on both his website and on Horse Gossip.

You gotta love Shetland Showing :D
 
My husband breeds and shows cattle, but rarely for the show circuit, only the sales. The good thing with having a sale after the show is that the buyers decide on whether you as a judge have done a good job - the prices reflect their opinion. So it is very nerve racking for a judge, and personal bias would be seen through right away. Its a shame this attitude couldn't be transferred to local show judging of horses.
 
Billabongchick said:
I gave up at showing years ago when I took my Anglo Arab into an Arab and Part bred class. I wasn't expecting to win or anything but looking round what else was there and how it behaved I thought we might manage a 3rd or so. What actually happened was the judge gave first place to an in hand Arab that lunged and kicked out at every single ridden horse as it went past on individual show. Think we came about 5th which didn't bother me but what did bother me was what they chose to place first! I decided it was a waste of time and all the effort required after that.
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Confused by this? Was it an in hand class or a ridden, or perhaps the championship? Basically, it does not matter in an in hand class how the pony behaves .... but it should in a ridden class!

There is far more facey facey at local shows. I got very frustrated one time at a local show when two "local" ponies that were supposed to be being judged as Welsh As were very obviously well over 12hh!! At affiliated, I believe the rules are that you cannot judge a horse your have bred or ever produced so not sure how some of these instances ever occurred. Amateurs to beat professionals - it happens all the time at very high level and it makes the win oh so much the sweeter! It is very very hard work to bring on a horse to that standard and that is what the producers are paid to do. They have the time, resources and staffing levels to get everything right and gain that perfection needed for the show ring.

Everyone who shows at a high standard has a little black book and they note down all the classes, judges and placings in it. This is not because of corruption but the fact that different judges like different types!

If you don't like showing don'd do it, but don't whine and moan when you don't get placed!
 
Its been corrupt for years! That doesn`t bother me half as much as the trend for obese animals tho, that truely is shocking!

I take my youngsters once or twice for their education but have to admit I find it tedious & extremely boring. Not to mention fairly dangerous with the amount of bad riders on over fed, wound up, badly behaved mounts usually in the ring. Definately don`t envy the judges who have to ride :eek:
 
I hear about this all the time but to be honest the only corrupt judging I've really seen have been local unaffliated/rc shows, it even happened in my favour:eek:.

My horse had previously (with another owner) been stabled on the yard where the show took place, so when I took her everyone knew her (and said how fab she was looking:D), but when we went in our ridden class she was naughty, spooked, went on the wrong leg etc, and we still won:confused:, will never be more embarassed I dont think! As a result I never went back to that show as she did just win every class she went in just because they knew her! This was only a very small local show but I was still shocked!

However really at the bigger shows I've done I've never thought that it was fixed, usually it's people who think their horse is better than it is, who are grumbling about it's all fixed! Sorry this is only my opinion, it's not based on anybody here :o.

I have been placed down the line when I thought I should have done better but of course I'm going to think that I think my horse is the best :D, and sometimes things can look very different to the judge on the day, as it is only a that moment in time the judge is looking at...

I can remember a show where I thought she'd done a fab show, impeccable manners, and was gutted with a low placing, I admit I did some grumbling about what more do you have to do....:D, but when I looked at the pictures she looked tense and quite set through her neck so didn't give a good overall impression, so though it had felt nice to me it looked very different to the judge.

I'm sure there are people who are fixing things, and maybe I'm just unobservant :D, or it happens more at the top, who knows, but it doesnt put me off. I show for fun only and for a good day out, and after all I get to take the best horse home :D.
x
 
Milkmaid said:
Its been corrupt for years! That doesn`t bother me half as much as the trend for obese animals tho, that truely is shocking!

I take my youngsters once or twice for their education but have to admit I find it tedious & extremely boring. Not to mention fairly dangerous with the amount of bad riders on over fed, wound up, badly behaved mounts usually in the ring. Definately don`t envy the judges who have to ride :eek:
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I have to agree with most of what is said here ^, apart from the tedious and extremely boring part :eek:, I love showing :D.

Hate the trend for fat horses and how warped people's veiws on it seem to be, from you need fat so it can change into muscle:eek: to that just their shape!!
 
We took our ponies to two local shows last year,we'd never been to a show before and didn't really know what we were doing,but thought it'd be fun.My youngest and I did the open lead rein class in the pouring rain,there was us and one other lady who had never shown before either.

The judge explained what to do,so we did our shows,absolutely drenched,lined up,then the rain stopped and 6 more competitors turned up,late because they'd all waited for the weather to improve.We had to do it all over again,after which,the other novice lady and I were at the end of the line.Not surprisingly,because we weren't as polished as later competitors,and we'd never expected to be placed,but the winning pony bucked whilst trotting around and the 2nd placed pony's rider fell off.
 
Spottyappy said:
It's nice to hear Bobbly not be afraid to have a different opinion.
However, I know that if competitors know the judge to be fair like that,they often won't support the show. Who looses out then? Sadly the show as It h less support.
We show at local level at the minute, but have shown at county in the past and may again in the future. However, I know we are unlikely to be well placed as our faces do not fit, not matter how perfect our horse.
I have had a horse shown professionally in the past, as I felt we would do it an injustice, and it was always well placed and took championships. The same horse shown at local level with ourselves, rarely got placed!, So, I defiantly think the professionals make a difference, as they present the horse in a better way than we could,it is their job against it being my hobby after all.
But, showing is also one persons opinion on the day, and many will never agree with it.
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I had to laugh at this, especially the bit about your face not fitting. I was at the ringside a couple of years ago at a certain championship watching the in-hand odd coloured class when your Daughter? was asked to leave the class for HER appalling behaviour!
 
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I did show once, got bitten so don't do it. Doesn't stop me being aware of corruption in affiliated shows though. Wasn't bothered about result, took youngster for experience of being out & behaving. Did object to winner (who spent most of the time walking around ring on back legs) running backwards out of control then nearly double-barreling me in the head. Then there was the gut outside the ring offering me a free covering by his colt to 'calm him down' when a) I did n't want it & the fact he couldn't control his colt to me means he shouldn't be on the showground b) my mare wasn't even in season!
 
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Mirage that is awful!! Your poor daughter! I thought that once the ring had closed then that was supposed to be it, no late comers??
 
I am rather saddened to hear these stories, although I do believe them.
Our breed society often has foreign judges and they are always put up in a hotel before the show so they don't get to know any of the breeders and exhibitors. After the show they have plenty of hospitality. I trust the other British judges to do a the correct job. They don't always put my horse first, but then I wouldn't if I was judging!

Reminds me of when a dressage judge I was writing read the list of entries and saw a horse sired by her stallion. It was a qualifier and a very even class, they were all scoring similar marks. After her stallion's horse had done its test I handed her the sheet and she saw the name and gave that horse and rider the highest collective marks of the whole test, apart from the winner. Those few extra marks brought the horse into the rosettes and the judge went over afterwards to congratulate the rider on qualifying into the next round!
 
Hippona said:
Of course it matters how an in-hand horse behaves in the ring...or it should do.
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Does it? I thought in-hand classes were all about conformation? Yes, the exhibitors have to be safe, and obviously it's a more pleasant picture and easier for the judge to look at and assess if the horse behaves I didn't think in-hand classes were judged on manner.

In ridden classes, particularly those based on a scoring system there is a percentage for conformation and a percentage for the way of going but I wasn't aware of anything like that for in-hand? Would be happy to be corrected.
 
I was always taught that a judge may ignore a bit of jumping about or fidgeting in a youngstock or novice class but in any other in hand class if your horse misbehaves you are likely to be marked down for it :confused: Isn't that how it should be???
 
Orangehorse said:
I am rather saddened to hear these stories, although I do believe them.
Our breed society often has foreign judges and they are always put up in a hotel before the show so they don't get to know any of the breeders and exhibitors. After the show they have plenty of hospitality. I trust the other British judges to do a the correct job. They don't always put my horse first, but then I wouldn't if I was judging!

Reminds me of when a dressage judge I was writing read the list of entries and saw a horse sired by her stallion. It was a qualifier and a very even class, they were all scoring similar marks. After her stallion's horse had done its test I handed her the sheet and she saw the name and gave that horse and rider the highest collective marks of the whole test, apart from the winner. Those few extra marks brought the horse into the rosettes and the judge went over afterwards to congratulate the rider on qualifying into the next round!
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it's not just showing and dressage either. I have a friend with a Premium Graded WB mare. When she was first presented, she failed to get into the top stud book. Then she was represented with a very famous name doing the presentation, and guess what?
 
Yes behaviour matter in inhand classes! How can you judge a horse that is messing around if you cant see its true movement? This has served me well on a couple of occassion where I have taken out my technically lame exracer who looked fab but never walked a step, trot was either sideways or extended with me being dragged. Standing up for the judge was a no go and so we came 2nd because the judge couldnt see the lameness or the dodgy hock. They commented on what a lovely horse he was and would be a superstar when he settles.

In general you can excuse a little friskyness in youngsters and mares with foals at foot but otherwise manners and behaviour has to be seen to allow the horse to be judged on its true merits.
 
Manners - judge's opinion. One judge wouldn't take much notice and put a better but naughty horse above a well behaved but plainer sort, in hand I mean. Some judges put manners above everything.

Mine was put down once, as he had seen a class of coloured ponies in the next ring and was convinced his friend was there (wasn't) and just kept neighing his head off. He had been to a few shows too, so knew how to behave.
 
We were very pleased as committed amateurs, who were warned we wouldn't get a look in, to take a championship at the hunter show; then not long afterwards our judge committed suicide. Very sad - it sort of took away the thrill!

We ceased showing properly years ago as it stopped being fun and the friendly atmosphere we used to enjoy, when staying on the show grounds, completely disappeared and was replaced by glaring silences if you appeared with a remotely good animal. Amateurs will find it more and more difficult to do well as it is all about money these days.
 
I like the thought of showing, and have done many shows myself, all locally should add, nothing in the realms of HOYS!
I've been placed down because my horse had 'sweat marks' (she actually has ticking through her coat!!) and marked down because my canter was 'too long' - ( we did one side, round the corner and across the diagonal) don't most people do that?? I've been placed lower in working hunters on a clear round than others refusing, that to me sucks! One time a winner of the WH class, TOLD the judge that she couldn't stop (see lots of 'contraptions') and didn't know if she cantered on the correct lead :confused:
My daughter on LR actually won a class, which was wrong as that day, pony was being very naughty and although not bucking was being bloody awkward and far from ideal to lead. I have no idea why we won, there were some much better behaved ponies!

I've also had really rubbish marks in dressage, when seemingly everything went well. The lowest point was when we were beaten by a horse who how the rider stayed on his antics i'll never know! We were well behaved, which I had hoped would have made a better score than a real naughty horse! (maybe she got better marks for staying on? - Can anyone verify extra marks for stickability?!!)

I'll like to go to another local show at some point in the near future, I know what to expect, and just go for the fun of the jumping in WH!

I want to be a judge and change the ways!! How DO you become a judge??
 
FM anyone can judge at local level - which is half the problem. Ring or email you localish riding clubs and offer your services as a judge, give your experience in horses and what sort of horses you would prefer to judge. Theres no point in going to judge the native section if your one and only experience of them is being bitten by a shetland 20years ago.
 
Sorry hit the wrong button on my phone!

If you have an interest and knowledge of coloureds then volunteer for that section, ridden horses (hunters, riding horses, riding club horse et al.) then volunteer for that bit. If your good at picking out conformation faults then do inhand etc ...
 
EKW said:
FM anyone can judge at local level - which is half the problem. Ring or email you localish riding clubs and offer your services as a judge, give your experience in horses and what sort of horses you would prefer to judge. Theres no point in going to judge the native section if your one and only experience of them is being bitten by a shetland 20years ago.
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That is true - I've judged locally on a few occasions

EKW said:
Sorry hit the wrong button on my phone!

If you have an interest and knowledge of coloureds then volunteer for that section, ridden horses (hunters, riding horses, riding club horse et al.) then volunteer for that bit. If your good at picking out conformation faults then do inhand etc ...
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The problem with this bit is that you often get asked (told!) to judge whatever classes are available. Nobody want's to judge LR/FR IME - them mothers are seriously:eek: scary when their precious doesn't at least place and they aren't afraid to say so. The coloured class is another nightmare especially inhand - everything from 10hh to 17hh, yearling to veteran and every shape /breed of equine - try finding your criteria for placing without getting abused!

Honestly, JMHO the reason that so many judges are so bad at local level is that it is a fairly thankless (unpaid) job. When I judge I get up early on a Sunday, do all my chores by 8am then get dressed in smart clothes and drive up to 20 miles to be on a showground by 8:30/9 am. I then stand in whatever the weather is for anything between 7 & 9 hours with a couple of tea breaks and most likely a burger van lunch. If I am lucky I get petrol money but usually a thank you and a bottle of wine. That was fine and still would be but for many (not all) of the competitors and their supporters. Too many people are RUDE to judges, fair enough you don't have to like their decision and a decent judge should be happy to explain it if asked politely but arguing with a judge in a line up is not going to make them change their mind! In fact, I have moved people down the line or asked them to leave the ring when they have started gobbing off at me - well, if you want to call me a stupid bitch, I'll show how a bitch behaves :o What also doesn't help is that organisers are so stuck for judges that they'll take anyone who appears to be able to walk and talk at the same time! But who's fault is that?

The best one ever was a few years ago at a very small RC show in the dreaded coloured (ridden) class - a huge turnout, about 30 horses in a small ring - you can imagine the chaos of the first walk, trot, canter! So I pulled them all in in open order to do their show. Nearly 2 hours later I've sent them all out again to place them. The 'lady' who had shown second objected noisily to being put down to sixth on her young mare who was very nice but weak behind and was hauled into a false outline. Her mate who wasn't placed on a narrow cob whose front legs went up and down rather than forward joined in the protest. The unforgivable thing they did was start on the rider in third who was on a lovely HW cob, both rider and horse perfectly turned out (the only reason he hadn't won was that he bucked into canter in his show but the rest was immaculate) because he was wearing a discrete toning numnah and this pair reckoned that was incorrect. Note please that the mare was in a black GP saddle with a flash bridle and the cob was wearing a black show saddle that was too wide and as a result pinching, no wonder he didn't move well! He also had an ill fitting diamante brow band. After 20 minutes of this whining and wailing IN THE RING I eliminated them and asked them to leave the ring. Oh, the language - even I was nearly shocked :D Plus their supporters also felt able to join in. There was also a similar event in the LR class (different judge!) earlier. Now, tell me why I've refused to judge for that RC since? Especially since the best the show secretary felt she could do was titter nervously and say that the competitor was a bit OTT...

Because of people like that you're paying £10 a class to be judged by people whose main qualification is their ability to take abuse not their knowledge of horses...
 
Yes, fair to say I've seen it the other way too at local level. (only showing I've ever done). Fun family show, little boy at beginner level in the fr. Pony raced round overtaking everything, had to be stopped by steward. Refused to move for individual show. Everyone thinking what a brave kid having a go, clearly first ever show & new to riding etc. Judge gave out places, & specials to the rest. Congratulated little boy on his effort etc. Kids parents went complaining at full volume that x should have won because he went the fastest.
 
Ah I must be lucky then in getting to judge the sections I request lol!

I've done Ridden horses, exracers and natives and only had a few grumblings from people but no all out obscenities in the ring - so far! I will quite happily judge at a riding club show but you can be sure as hell that I would never show at one again :D
 
Interesting comments.

I can only comment on hunter showing. We are total amatuers, home produced, full time jobs etc.

We took on the pro's and beat them. If your horse is good enough it is possible to do well. We found the most of the pro's to be very friendly and Robert Walker was particularly pleasant and even offered a few pearls of wisdom. David Tatlow was also very encouraging and again gave us valuable guidance. Both showmen gave us the advice whilst in the line up in the ring.

I stood outside the hunter ring at the Counties watching my horse compete and the group of people to my right contained a very eminent producer who is getting on in years now. As my horse galloped past I heard the producer comment -'that's the horse who is taking all our prizes, blxxxy amatuers need to realise we do this for a living'. My horse stood 2nd in the open, reserve in the championship and took the amatuer H/W and the championship. The producer followed us back to the lorry and asked how much I wanted for the horse. He was not and never will be for sale, the producer than offered to have him on livery and assured me he would win at HOY's. I could not afford to do that and had no wish to anyway.

The horse qualified 2 years running for us and the thrill of competing at HOYs will never be forgotten, he made it through to the final 9 both years and finished 7th each time, we were the only amatuers in the line up. The second year we were there the ride judge saw us in the evening and said to us the horse would not have been beaten had a pro been on him. We know the horse was the best and we are proud of what he did for us, and with that comment from the judge we retired the horse.
 
When I asked on FB what to show my boy as, I got told not to bother! He would never get anywhere other then bottom!

It puts me off the entire thing to be honest if that is an ex shower saying horrible things like that tbh :(
 
Wish I could read these and say different but...
I can only hack to our local, decent sized show once a year, my first EVER go. Thought I'd have a stab at coloured classes with my ISH. (Having already been told by a feed rep she wasn't "show condition" and needed an extra 20kg minimum. She was very fit and muscular, not fat.)
Before I even left the yard my cuz warned me she knew of the judge and that he was a "trad cob man". So my tenner was scuppered before I even entered the ring. Went anyway and never placed obviously. Thing is there are 3 classed; in hand, ridden and a trad cob only class. Not a single coloured sport horse type placed.
Happen to be friends with some of the directors of the show (it's an agricultural show, with cattle, sheep, etc. and beautiful heavy horses) and that judge won't be back because it was deemed unfair.
 
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