ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
This is a great exercise. At a clinic I once watched Geoff Billington put 16 strides in a 4 stride related distance, on a horse he'd only just met. He had us all doing what you describe.
Could anyone please explain 'letting the jump come to you'?
- Thread starter catembi
- Start date
This is a great exercise. At a clinic I once watched Geoff Billington put 16 strides in a 4 stride related distance, on a horse he'd only just met. He had us all doing what you describe.
Bluewaves
Well-Known Member
We did this in random lessons when i was learning to ride and I had no clue as to the purpose of why we were doing it! It was good fun though.
I also had no clue why we were supposed to worry about our strides (and just switched off when other riders used the term) when we were also taught that we should just ride a good regular canter and just let the horse sort itself out.
When I bought my first horse, he was a retired showjumper and always worked everthing out for me over a short course but we never jumped anything over 80.
I haven't jumped in years and this thread has been so helpful in filling in gaps. It's confirmed my past decision to just forget about strides because I was never going to be that good at jumping to need the concept or develop the skills.
I also had no clue why we were supposed to worry about our strides (and just switched off when other riders used the term) when we were also taught that we should just ride a good regular canter and just let the horse sort itself out.
When I bought my first horse, he was a retired showjumper and always worked everthing out for me over a short course but we never jumped anything over 80.
I haven't jumped in years and this thread has been so helpful in filling in gaps. It's confirmed my past decision to just forget about strides because I was never going to be that good at jumping to need the concept or develop the skills.
Michen
Well-Known Member
Here’s what happened when I sat and did nothing.
Half way around our first stab at BE100, jumping well. Went disunited and instead of making a decision to change leads or push on I just sat quiet. I was half way around the corner coming into the double and even before then knew I was in trouble- I literally went “oh f***”. So I sat,did nothing, let the fence come to us, we were completely wrong and my very honest horse got right underneath it and made every effort to jump despite my absolutely useless piloting.
So yeah, maybe that works at 90, it didn’t work at a big wide SJ oxer.
Half way around our first stab at BE100, jumping well. Went disunited and instead of making a decision to change leads or push on I just sat quiet. I was half way around the corner coming into the double and even before then knew I was in trouble- I literally went “oh f***”. So I sat,did nothing, let the fence come to us, we were completely wrong and my very honest horse got right underneath it and made every effort to jump despite my absolutely useless piloting.
So yeah, maybe that works at 90, it didn’t work at a big wide SJ oxer.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
No-one is saying 'do nothing'.
You lost canter quality and rhythm. Getting those back would have been 'doing something' that did not involve stressing about strides. Great pics though!
You lost canter quality and rhythm. Getting those back would have been 'doing something' that did not involve stressing about strides. Great pics though!
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
I knew Tik had talked about this back in 2019 at that camp. And luckily I wrote it up here...
forums.horseandhound.co.uk
The relevant section:
Tik Talk: Jumping
This is his order of priorities from top to bottom:
Direction
Speed
Rhythm
Balance
Stride.
He says if you can see a great stride you can get away with not having such great rhythm and balance eg horses in young event horse classes with pro riders. These horses might be green but pro can place them where they need to be. On the other hand if you have a great line with a good canter, with good rhythm and balance then you can get away with not seeing a stride. This has REALLY helped me because I have had instructors that tell me not to worry about the stride but just focus on riding the canter and the lines, and others that focus on seeing the stride all the time. And I have kept wondering which way was 'right' when in fact the answer is 'it depends!'
Tik Maynard Clinic Write Up
https://useventing.com/search?q=GRID+PRO+QUO Lots of interesting exercises. Love the reports @Ambers Echo LOL @milliepops beat me to it. Em
forums.horseandhound.co.uk
The relevant section:
Tik Talk: Jumping
This is his order of priorities from top to bottom:
Direction
Speed
Rhythm
Balance
Stride.
He says if you can see a great stride you can get away with not having such great rhythm and balance eg horses in young event horse classes with pro riders. These horses might be green but pro can place them where they need to be. On the other hand if you have a great line with a good canter, with good rhythm and balance then you can get away with not seeing a stride. This has REALLY helped me because I have had instructors that tell me not to worry about the stride but just focus on riding the canter and the lines, and others that focus on seeing the stride all the time. And I have kept wondering which way was 'right' when in fact the answer is 'it depends!'
Michen
Well-Known Member
Where did I say anyone did? I am just sharing my experience of when I did nothing, and what I learned.
dixie
Well-Known Member
I see this a lot and in my book I’m sure I can be 3/4 stride away
Catembi please don’t stop posting about your horse, it’s a learning journey for all of us and if you take the bits that you’re interested in and which might work and not the others, then you’ll have gained something.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
Anyone that thinks that just having a good canter is "enough" will come unstuck when the jumps get bigger. A good canter is the starting point, but it is just a stepping stone on the way.
flat3
Well-Known Member
Out of interest, where are you looking if not at the fence?
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I look right over the top of it. If there's something handy like a tree in the distance that's bang on the right line, I'll look at that.
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Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
It is having the fence in soft focus, rather than staring at it, that is more important than where I look, TBH. Looking where I plan to go is always a good bet!
ETA, unless there is a camera LOL.
Curly_Feather
Well-Known Member
I agree with this so much. My instructor is very adamant about jumping out of a rhythm, but I have done this at low levels for long enough to be very very certain that people who believe you don't need to ride for the stride are the ones that can see it and make small adjustments instinctively. I am not one of those people
sportsmansB
Well-Known Member
I have a feeling that what your instructor is trying to say is don't either push like mad the last few strides or hold hold hold waiting on something, keep coming in the same rhythm. But that doesn't mean that strides don't matter. Up to 90cm or even a meter most keen and reasonable horses can jump a show jump from pretty much anywhere, they'll go long or chip in depending on their preference if you don't help them, they might knock it down. Practicing over little fences or poles helps develop the canter, the control, the direction, and eventually your eye
Once the fences get bigger and wider and the courses more technical with trebles, related distances etc you do need to be able to help the horse out, and by having the foundation of a good rideable, energetic, adjustable canter and riding good lines you will be best placed to start to be able to do this. If you haven't developed the right canter and the right feel before tackling the bigger jumps then this won't work.
Like everything its a stepping stone on the way to the next level, which gets infinitely more complicated when you get there
The top level show jumpers are almost freaks of nature and the size of those fences takes a different level of skill - but watching lower levels and / or eventing show jumping will give you a good appreciation of what goes well and not so well...
Once the fences get bigger and wider and the courses more technical with trebles, related distances etc you do need to be able to help the horse out, and by having the foundation of a good rideable, energetic, adjustable canter and riding good lines you will be best placed to start to be able to do this. If you haven't developed the right canter and the right feel before tackling the bigger jumps then this won't work.
Like everything its a stepping stone on the way to the next level, which gets infinitely more complicated when you get there
The top level show jumpers are almost freaks of nature and the size of those fences takes a different level of skill - but watching lower levels and / or eventing show jumping will give you a good appreciation of what goes well and not so well...
Ellibelli
Well-Known Member
See I always found the opposite, especially with bold eventers. The bigger the fences (sj & xc), the more the horse backs off and so just sitting up with my legs on and keeping straight was all I had to do and the horses kept in a rhythm and found their own perfect stride. Trying to do that with smaller fences that the horse thought was too easy was a disaster!
Cherryblossom
Well-Known Member
I try to leave my young horse alone at the smaller fences. I feel like her learning to adjust herself helped her understand and react more quickly when I ask her to adjust to a fence. Before I did that, she would shorten for me, but not lengthen.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
I have had a discussion on this recently and in trot I leave them alone as they can fiddle in trot without ruining the jump but tbh even then they mostly have a pole 9yds out. In canter you ruin the jump very quickly if they don’t learn to come correctly and yet you have no adjustability in the canter. I now stick placing poles down 3-6 strides away from the jump so they hit the jump on a good spot every time and build confidence from that.
Bernster
Well-Known Member
I’m another that has a horrid habit of chasing into a fence. Looking totally away is what works best for me, to the point of looking at a 90 degree angle sometimes to stop me fiddling with the last few strides. Looking up and in front of the fence is probably a better option though to keep you straight. I find courses much easier as I’m looking for the next fence so I chase less. A placing pole also stops me doing it but I’ve not cracked how to retain that when the pole gets removed.
I agree that although your trainer might be asking you to do less/nothing, you are still working on balance, direction, speed etc, keeping the leg on and keeping a contact.
I agree that although your trainer might be asking you to do less/nothing, you are still working on balance, direction, speed etc, keeping the leg on and keeping a contact.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
here's my take on the basics you have to establish
1/ learn to produce and ride a 12ft canter as standard
2/ teach ability to shorten and lengthen from that 12ft canter
I think most people actually *can* see a stride quite easily - but if they don't have the ability to adjust the canter, or they're starting from the wrong size of canter in the first place, they'll still come unstuck.
And until the rider can produce a 12ft canter and adjust the horse, there's generally more benefit from trot jumping, working through grids and making good use of placing poles to help generate the correct jump rather than just bimbling around letting the horse work it out.
1/ learn to produce and ride a 12ft canter as standard
2/ teach ability to shorten and lengthen from that 12ft canter
I think most people actually *can* see a stride quite easily - but if they don't have the ability to adjust the canter, or they're starting from the wrong size of canter in the first place, they'll still come unstuck.
And until the rider can produce a 12ft canter and adjust the horse, there's generally more benefit from trot jumping, working through grids and making good use of placing poles to help generate the correct jump rather than just bimbling around letting the horse work it out.
Bob notacob
Well-Known Member
I suspect that their is often too much focus on fence height rather than quality of bascule . I like low and wide oxers ,They dont intimidate a green horse but they do require him to learn to adjust his stride (while still keeping the rhythem.
Cragrat
Well-Known Member
Extreme looking at the next jump
Franky Eventing proving you don't have to look at the jump in front of you AT ALL
Franky Eventing proving you don't have to look at the jump in front of you AT ALL
paddi22
Well-Known Member
what i found helpful, was at a clinic with an army rider where the instructor said most amateurs should just keep a good bouncy canter and then four strides out decide if you have to hold or push for the last three strides. that really helped to simplify it for me and stop me worrying and fiddling too far out. it developed a good instinct for me 3 strides out what I needed to be. Before then I was over thinking it, doubting myself and fiddling too far away from fence.
tristar
Well-Known Member
the rhythm and balance of the canter, the right speed for the canter, flow enables the horse and rider to `know` if they are right
the jump comes to you but you are on the horse who is jumping it, the decisions you make 12 strides out determines how the horse meets the jump, tinkering less than 12 strides out is fatal
the jump comes to you but you are on the horse who is jumping it, the decisions you make 12 strides out determines how the horse meets the jump, tinkering less than 12 strides out is fatal
Bernster
Well-Known Member
Haha nice video. Yep, that’s how much I have to look away sometimes to stop fiddling! And I’m jumping twigsExtreme looking at the next jump
Franky Eventing proving you don't have to look at the jump in front of you AT ALL
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I was taught to look at the next fence (or the line to it if that's impossible) because it causes the horse to land on the correct leg to get to it.
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catembi
Well-Known Member
Okay, an update...if anyone's interested in my very, very basic 'jumping'...!
Thor is now fitter & can hold the canter for longer. I have got a dr trainer & an sj trainer and we are doing work on improving the canter - OMG it's hard work! He is 17hh and 635kg; I am 5 ft 1 and 48kg so it's a lot of horse for me to hold together. He can do so much stuff on Dantrolene that he couldn't do without it. He can strike off in the correct lead as easily as pushing a button when previously canter left was hit and miss with getting a transition & canter right was quite a battle. He used to do a weird thing in canter right which was suddenly grabbing hold very strongly & charging left & I couldn't stop him. He's stopped doing that. He can collect a tiny bit which he used to find v hard & which made him angry. (I didn't know he had PSSM type 2/MIM, so didn't realise that it wasn't a schooling problem.)
We have been doing canter poles and it seems to get more natural the more we do it. I am riding more with my seat and practising having soft hands. Tonight we did raised canter poles...not quite jumps yet! I think it might be key to do lots of canter poles. I might make some 'courses' out of poles. I know it sounds a bit low key, but who cares. I have the feeling that if we spend enough time on the foundations until it really, really clicks, then progress will be faster & surer.
We also went out at the w'end for the first time in over a year! To a jumping clinic. I know the venue very well & I know that often the advertised height is adjusted downwards dep on the participants, so thought it would probably be at the 'trot poles to a tiny x pole' level. It wasn't, so we recognised that we weren't quite ready yet & did the same canter pole stuff as at home. Positives: loaded there & back okay, didn't get excited at the venue, only neighed twice, didn't get upset by other horses, no spooking or giddiness, worked really well. So our biggest achievement was working around the jumps & doing our canter pole, but what more can I ask of him than to perform as well as he does at home?
I am also doing BWRT to help with confidence - I did a post on it in Tack Room. I've done one session & have another one booked for a week or two. It is definitely making a big difference, and with confidence in general, not just with riding.
And I'm starting Thor on Hempine as soon as it arrives. It's (legal!) cannabis extract for horses, CBD, and has been a real game changer for PSSM horses. I know that it has a really positive effect on people with muscular disorders so we will see what happens. I think that it isn't comp legal, but that's the least of our worries atm.
I have really appreciated the responses & have read them through carefully. Being told that you can never be more than half a stride out but being 3/4 stride out - that resonated. Also, the photographic evidence of what happens when you just sit there...that is soooooo what happens!
Thank you to everyone who has been kind & tried to help. Next jumping lesson is Friday, so I might try to get some photos & might even be brave enough to post one! We'll see what they look like first! Onwards & upwards!
Thor is now fitter & can hold the canter for longer. I have got a dr trainer & an sj trainer and we are doing work on improving the canter - OMG it's hard work! He is 17hh and 635kg; I am 5 ft 1 and 48kg so it's a lot of horse for me to hold together. He can do so much stuff on Dantrolene that he couldn't do without it. He can strike off in the correct lead as easily as pushing a button when previously canter left was hit and miss with getting a transition & canter right was quite a battle. He used to do a weird thing in canter right which was suddenly grabbing hold very strongly & charging left & I couldn't stop him. He's stopped doing that. He can collect a tiny bit which he used to find v hard & which made him angry. (I didn't know he had PSSM type 2/MIM, so didn't realise that it wasn't a schooling problem.)
We have been doing canter poles and it seems to get more natural the more we do it. I am riding more with my seat and practising having soft hands. Tonight we did raised canter poles...not quite jumps yet! I think it might be key to do lots of canter poles. I might make some 'courses' out of poles. I know it sounds a bit low key, but who cares. I have the feeling that if we spend enough time on the foundations until it really, really clicks, then progress will be faster & surer.
We also went out at the w'end for the first time in over a year! To a jumping clinic. I know the venue very well & I know that often the advertised height is adjusted downwards dep on the participants, so thought it would probably be at the 'trot poles to a tiny x pole' level. It wasn't, so we recognised that we weren't quite ready yet & did the same canter pole stuff as at home. Positives: loaded there & back okay, didn't get excited at the venue, only neighed twice, didn't get upset by other horses, no spooking or giddiness, worked really well. So our biggest achievement was working around the jumps & doing our canter pole, but what more can I ask of him than to perform as well as he does at home?
I am also doing BWRT to help with confidence - I did a post on it in Tack Room. I've done one session & have another one booked for a week or two. It is definitely making a big difference, and with confidence in general, not just with riding.
And I'm starting Thor on Hempine as soon as it arrives. It's (legal!) cannabis extract for horses, CBD, and has been a real game changer for PSSM horses. I know that it has a really positive effect on people with muscular disorders so we will see what happens. I think that it isn't comp legal, but that's the least of our worries atm.
I have really appreciated the responses & have read them through carefully. Being told that you can never be more than half a stride out but being 3/4 stride out - that resonated. Also, the photographic evidence of what happens when you just sit there...that is soooooo what happens!
Thank you to everyone who has been kind & tried to help. Next jumping lesson is Friday, so I might try to get some photos & might even be brave enough to post one! We'll see what they look like first! Onwards & upwards!