Countryfile: abandoned horses etc

Totally agree with you popsdosh.
Particularly about the cruelty suffered by some horses from their sentimental so called horse loving owners.
 
Personally I would have no issue eating horse meat any more than any other form of meat, and I have eaten it abroad. What is important to me is how humanely and naturally the meat has been reared and slaughtered. Those who have worked closely with other livestock will know they all have their own characteristics and needs.

It's sad that so many perfectly healthy poines are brought to the kennels for slaughter simply because they were purchased for children who have lost interest and nobody will buy them again.
 
The question is:

Will the racing industry curb their breeding? - no.

Will the travellers curb their breeding? - no

Will everyday people stop breeding trash from their retired/LOU horses? - no

Will breeders stop or curb their breeding? No, not entirely although this is the only sector where I've witnessed some breeders taking not of what's going on and some of them ARE putting a halt on things, there are a number of breeders I know who haven't bred any foals this year because there simply isn't the market.

But in general, no, travellers don't give a hoot, too many racers will be bred because so many don't make the grade, and individual horse owners ignorantly breed believing their one foal won't affect anything in the grand scheme of things.

No matter how much you arm these idiots with the facts, the knowledge and the damning statistics they will believe that they are the exception to the rule, they will always find BS reasons why the rule doesn't apply to them and theirs. Because of this, the issue does have to be tackled in a new and different way... Something we never dreamed we would have to see happen, has to happen.
 
Fatpiggy.

Have you not heard of comic irony? In no way did I insult HRH, actually I admire her generally. It just seems strange that such a person would eat what is seen as an inferior meat in the grand scheme of things. It also seems that she was very much against slaughter a few decades ago. now she sounds almost as bad as the rest of the Countryfile crowd. She is not the best person to ask about the whole debacle is she? Ask people who are at the sharp end! Hence my flippant remark.

Fatpiggy, this is a forum; open for debate - I won't 'start' if you promise not to be so domineering. You are not my Boss.

BTW back to the topic - has anyone read the extensive researchcarried out by Temple Grandin? including her work for the huge beef processors in North and South America? Also, what are others' views on stallion licences being re-introduced...and vigorously policed? Something has to happen yes, but its todays UK all over, people are getting away with 'murder' - from tax free big businesses down to fly grazer/breeders and dumpers. People are doing what they do because there is nothing to stop them.
 
popsdosh said:
To put my blunt hat on there is far more cruelty to horses carried out in the UK by bunny huggers and incompetents who will not see the responsibility of giving their horses a decent end than true horse lovers.
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And by rescues run by do gooders with no idea, funded by hysterical bunny huggers with no idea.
 
I think horses are more likely to suffer and not get the medical treatment they need, as the use of certain medicines exclude them from being used for human consumption.

So someone willing to sell their horose for meet isnt going to worry if its hopping lame and give it bute, they will continue to fatten it up.

They say this will get rid of the problem with unwanted and abandoned animals.
But most wont have a passsport, so medical history can not be proven therefore I presume it excludes them from beign used for human consumption.
So it wont address the problme at all!
 
hackneylass2 said:
Fatpiggy.

Have you not heard of comic irony? In no way did I insult HRH, actually I admire her generally. It just seems strange that such a person would eat what is seen as an inferior meat in the grand scheme of things. It also seems that she was very much against slaughter a few decades ago. now she sounds almost as bad as the rest of the Countryfile crowd. She is not the best person to ask about the whole debacle is she? Ask people who are at the sharp end! Hence my flippant remark.

Fatpiggy, this is a forum; open for debate - I won't 'start' if you promise not to be so domineering. You are not my Boss.

BTW back to the topic - has anyone read the extensive researchcarried out by Temple Grandin? including her work for the huge beef processors in North and South America? Also, what are others' views on stallion licences being re-introduced...and vigorously policed? Something has to happen yes, but its todays UK all over, people are getting away with 'murder' - from tax free big businesses down to fly grazer/breeders and dumpers. People are doing what they do because there is nothing to stop them.
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You cannot do anything without impinging on peoples rights. Economics will have more effect on the breeding than any other restraint. Nobody breeds horses for them to be fattened and then killed for meat as you might as well sit in the shower ripping up £50 notes . A lot and I mean a lot of the travelling community are in a desperate situation with the collapse in horse values and would desperately like to reduce their herds maybe we should consider a cull scheme where the government just takes their excess stock and disposes of them. It is the cost of disposal that is stopping a lot of them from cutting back. I know of two families who will produce no foals this year having been persuaded that keeping the stallions out was the best thing last year.
On stallion licensing can you tell me how that cuts the number of foals being born! Why stop there why not mares as well! I can tell you as a responsible breeder I would totally oppose either measure why should I be dictated to by a panel from somewhere that most likely have a vested interest which horses I can breed from. I believe somebody in Germany tried that about 80 yrs ago and luckily it failed. I take responsibility for every horse that I breed ,however I would not be slow to do the right thing if their quality of life was threatened or compromised .
There are some bad people within the horse community but most of them do not breed horses but merely trade them as a commodity or look on them as the latest fashion accessory.
 
This ^^^^^.

PTS is an expensive option when many will procrastinate and hope that "something will turn up". Meantime, wouldn't it be lovely for the children to breed a foal?

Potters need to franchise out so that there are other efficient and humane horse abattoirs around the country and a good export trade for horse meat on the hook.
 
I see two issues here. Farming (regulated) horses for meat and what to do with waste and unwanted horses. Under current rules horses given bute, for eg. ever, cannot go into the human food chain but the passport and drug recording is a shambles so everything has to be sorted. Research into drug safety in horses for human consumption has to be done along with relaible recording of drug history if we want to send cast offs to slaughter. Owners often have stocks of currently banned drugs and give without vet knowledge!

I agree 100% horses should be slaughtered here rather than exported live. That applies to all animals in my view.
 
My point was that slaughter of abandoned horses for human consumption means all the meat has to be tested not just the odd sample.
 
amandap said:
My point was that slaughter of abandoned horses for human consumption means all the meat has to be tested not just the odd sample.
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You would not be able to slaughter abandoned horses for human consumption as they would not have passports. However I was advocating having a scheme that took unwanted horses off peoples hands and disposed of them at no cost. They could still be used in some form to offset this cost. I am afraid a lot of the disposal cost in horses is a ripoff as a cow costs between £80-100 to dispose of if not able to go in the food chain.
 
jrp204 said:
An animal reared for meat would be treated differently, we can use painkillers in our sheep that doesn't stop them going into the food chain, maybe there is something else that horses can be given? You would be dealing with an animal that would likely be reared in a group with very little handling and would be slaughtered probably before it is 2 so hopefully would be less likely to require painkillers. As with other drugs or wormers with a meat withhold period any animal that was killed within the withhold the meat would be condemned or not go for human consumption.
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No, horses wouldn't be slaughtered as youngsters, apparently their meat gets better with age, unlike beef or lamb so it would be older horses that would be used to provide meat for the table.
'Bute' is the most widely used pain killer (and one of the most effective) in horses and just a single dose would rule them out of the food chain for good- there are many commonly used drugs that also rule them out. .
 
Cost of euthanasia and disposal should be charged at the beginning of a horse's life, not the end, with the start up cost being transferred at each sale and included in the price. The money would be held by an agency responsible for investing the funds and then all horses could be ensured of a dignified and compassionate end.

It would deter back yard breeders and numpties looking to buy a horse for peanuts.

Where does this lovely idea that horses are slaughtered humanely come from ? Not from The Red Lion Abattoir at Nantwich, now closed down because of cruelty and not from good old Potters either . It's a link for Potters; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ug-probe-shows-brutal-seconds-ponys-life.html and then take a look at the well documented abuse video's at The Red lion before it was shut down.

Then tell me that abattoirs help equine welfare.
 
popsdosh said:
You would not be able to slaughter abandoned horses for human consumption as they would not have passports.
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I realize that but passports are no guarantee of what drugs a horse has had in it's life.

How do they dispose of animals not fit for consumption?
 
The thing is horse meat is nowhere near as highly regulated as domestic livestock, and the nature of horse keeping does not lend itself to control. If all horses had to have full certificates and be ear tagged etc then imagine the cost of administering such a system!

The only way to sensibly do it is to remove all drugs that may be given to horses which are unapproved for animals for consumption.
 
How do they dispose of animals not fit for consumption?
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Some livestock is fed to hounds. The rest is taken away by specialist carriers to specialist incinerators or rendering plants. Costs a fortune. The cheapest price to leagally dispose of a horse carcass is about £150. The hunt kennels have a massive skip for this purpose which is handled by a specialist waste contractor.
 
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I don't fancy eating a malnourished, worm ridden, stressed horse from an unknown source, but each to their own. Some consumers like cheap meat.
 
Thanks Houndman. Can I just clarify that some hunt destroyed horses (surplus)go to plants not as hound feed? Not that it matters really I am just interested as it makes sense that Hunts would otherwise need huge freezers if there's a lot of demand.

Now the rendering plants (glue factories I assue is the old name) where does their product go?
 
We generally do not like to feed horse to the hounds as it is very rich and just goes through them, and we only feed where there is little beef available. Weather affects how much fallen stock comes in, and currently with the warm weather, there is less fallen stock (which if course is good for the farmers) so we have to feed a bit of horse at the moment. Generally the supply of fallen stock keeps up with demand at the kennels, and we pick up calves as a free service for farmers anyway as they are best for the hounds. Surplus can be taken off us by other nearby hunts but this is limited to people who have the relevant waste transfer licensing.

Rendering plants are probably one of the earliest forms of recylcing outfits in history. The fats are extracted from animals not fit for human consumption and used as tallow, a starting product for many industrial chemicals and detergents. This has raised an issue in recent years due to questions about whether some detergents can be Kosher or Halal, but senior religious figures have largely dismissed the questions as the items are not consumed.

The bone meal as far as I am aware is used for fertiliser and the collagen (formerly for glue) as a base for other industrial chemicals. The rest is a bit more regulated since the BSE scare but I expect there is more info on the internet.

There are also currently developments going on regarding obtaining bio diesel from this source.

It may not be particularly pleasant thinking of how our favourite horses end up, but the reality is that carcasses need to be disposed of properly, and this way is recycling as much as possible and as environmentally friendly as is currently available.

Re the previous poster who said disposal charges are a rip off, this is because the charges for collecting them and disposing them are huge - man hours, diesel, use of knackerwagon and its maintenance, loading into skip, paying to have the skip taken away and emptied. Believe me, when all that has been paid for, there's little money left over.
 
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Thank you very much for taking the time to post that. I missed this earlier post and agree.
Houndman said:
The thing is horse meat is nowhere near as highly regulated as domestic livestock, and the nature of horse keeping does not lend itself to control. If all horses had to have full certificates and be ear tagged etc then imagine the cost of administering such a system!

The only way to sensibly do it is to remove all drugs that may be given to horses which are unapproved for animals for consumption.
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I take it the horsemeat producer shown in the film will not be subject to farm animal regulations either. I don't remember if a volutary code was mentioned but I imagine his customers and word are the only control mechanisms.

I don't have a problem with farming horses for meat but if older horses are better eating I can't see it paying unless it becomes a premium product.

Re horses fate and welfare in general, well it's up to us all to step up to the plate! Not literally of course!
 
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The thing is, in the UK, horse meat has always been viewed as a poor person's meal so this is historically why it is not fashionable here. Huge quantities of it were eaten during World War 2 along with meat that would be condemned today as any meat at all was welcome under rationing, and horses not in work were hard to justify keeping due to lack of availability of feed. However when rationing ended, it was not carried on.
 
That's interesting jrp204. I expect it's down to taste, which may be culturally aquired similar to us preferring lamb to mutton or even goat. We used to eat a lot of mutton in UK even as a child I remember eating it.

Horses as meat might become like oysters, no longer a poor mans meat.
 
I watched this and I thought that normally they show abattoirs with cows/pigs in holding pens before they go into be killed - they didn't with the horses.

I think that this part was skimmed over a bit - perhaps??

I personally wouldn't eat horse meat but I do think that something needs to be done about the equine crisis. Whether eating them is the answer I am not sure, but wheat we are doing currently is obviously not working and horses are suffering as a consequence.
 
thewonderhorse said:
I watched this and I thought that normally they show abattoirs with cows/pigs in holding pens before they go into be killed - they didn't with the horses.

I think that this part was skimmed over a bit - perhaps??
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I think you are right. I expect it was pushed as far as they dare. They showed sheep in the killing cue recently. I wasn't convinced they didn't look stressed but emotion may be a factor in my impression. Large scale slaughter must be impossible to get stress free.
 
popsdosh said:
A lot and I mean a lot of the travelling community are in a desperate situation with the collapse in horse values and would desperately like to reduce their herds maybe we should consider a cull scheme where the government just takes their excess stock and disposes of them. It is the cost of disposal that is stopping a lot of them from cutting back. I know of two families who will produce no foals this year having been persuaded that keeping the stallions out was the best thing last year.
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Completely agree and I have similar personal experience wrt Travellers.

The whole issue is incredibly complex and it's simply unfair to lay the blame at the door of any one particular group . . . that said, before any measures are introduced, the debacle that is the passport "industry" needs to be fully resolved - it's beyond a joke. The silhouette in my horse's passport isn't him . . . however the microchip matches . . . he's been through at least three owners (including me) since he left Poland . . . all on a dodgy passport - and I KNOW I'm not alone. It's an utter farce.

P
 
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Seaweed is another food seldom nowadays eaten in the UK purely as it has been seen as a poor man's food, though pre agricultural revolution, and with coastal communities later, it was regularly consumed. Nutritionalists will all tell you it is very good for you, and it is eaten in plenty of other countries around the world and elsewhere in Europe. Laver in Wales and Ireland was once a main staple vegetable.

Of course seaweed is found in a multitude of other products in the form of extracts, many of which we don't realise it's in.

Another reason that horses are not generally reared specifically for meat anywhere is because they do not mature quickly and gain weight rapidly in the way that beef, lamb and pork do and so to do so would not be cost effective.
 
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Plenty of rabbit eaten in rural areas and around here (we ate it last week), but its decline is more to the availability of cheaper alternatives with less preparation required such as battery reared turkey and chicken.

I think you would be surprised and that there would be people eating horse meat in the UK if it were more widely available and competitively priced.
 
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