Crates and toilet training - I need hive mind input!

[CorvusCorax]

Here's the thing. People who crate train get words like (for example) horrid, unnatural, etc thrown at them, historically. That's why they get defensive.
If non crate users were being hit with the adjectives then I could agree that they were getting a hard time, but I can't see it.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Oh and I sleep across the hall and I do hear everything. A retching dog gets me from bed to back door in 0.5 seconds.

 

[skinnydipper]

Here's the thing. People who crate train get words like (for example) horrid, unnatural, etc thrown at them, historically. That's why they get defensive.
If non crate users were being hit with the adjectives then I could agree that they were getting a hard time, but I can't see it.

I think you've let me off lightly, CC. Merry Christmas!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Merry Whoah There I'm Still Not Mentally Prepared For Christmas Yet!!

 

[YorksG]

I was somewhat shocked that a poster believed that crating a dog meant that you were likely to wake up to find you dog dead! Presumably those shut in kitchens etc won't die overnight, or if their owners dare to go out without their dog during the day.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I sleep directly above my (crated) dogs and wake up, if they need me to do so. Sometimes, I wake up just because they are snoring.

 

[twiggy2]

Twiggy, please read my first paragraph again. I have no problem if people want to use a crate for their dog. I wanted to show the other side of the coin as there has been a very strong bias towards crates.

My post was not aimed at you, I was just making it clear that there is a balance with the use of crates and I think most people on here are using crates responsibly.

 

[skinnydipper]

I was somewhat shocked that a poster believed that crating a dog meant that you were likely to wake up to find you dog dead! Presumably those shut in kitchens etc won't die overnight, or if their owners dare to go out without their dog during the day.

One of my dogs had prolonged grand mal seizures which required rectal Diazepam and I needed to hear if she had a fit, I couldn't have done that if she had been locked in a crate downstairs.

How terrible it must be to get up and find a dead dog and not to have been aware it had taken ill and needed you. Bloat, for instance, is a painful way to die.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...-mind-input.770495/page-2#Zyc0hMTAStEjBVH2.99

I think you have misunderstood my post. I did not say that. I will quote my own post above, please re-read it.

If I had not been able to hear Annie fitting and given her rectal Diazepam she would have died in status epilepticus and if she hadn't died, then in simple terms her brain would have "fried" due to heat involved in a prolonged fit. In the end she died in status epilepticus through no fault of mine and it was a horrible way to die.

Unfortunately dogs do die of bloat in the night when their owners are unaware and they come down to find a dead dog in the morning. It isn't something I would want to experience.

I personally know an owner who came down to find his Border Collie had died in the night. Taken to the vet over a period of time but undiagnosed illness. The dog was believed to have had lymphoma but a PM was not done.

It is naïve to believe that dogs do not die in the night. In fact I seem to remember that somebody on this forum found their dog dead in the morning from unknown causes.

If I can find the name of the forum member I will add it to the thread.

I think this thread is becoming unpleasant and I have nothing more to say.

 

[skinnydipper]

Please read the Sudden Death thread. The whole thread please not just the first post.

 

[YorksG]

One of my dogs had prolonged grand mal seizures which required rectal Diazepam and I needed to hear if she had a fit, I couldn't have done that if she had been locked in a crate downstairs.

How terrible it must be to get up and find a dead dog and not to have been aware it had taken ill and needed you. Bloat, for instance, is a painful way to die.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...-mind-input.770495/page-2#Zyc0hMTAStEjBVH2.99

I think you have misunderstood my post. I did not say that. I will quote my own post above, please re-read it.

If I had not been able to hear Annie fitting and given her rectal Diazepam she would have died in status epilepticus and if she hadn't died, then in simple terms her brain would have "fried" due to heat involved in a prolonged fit. In the end she died in status epilepticus through no fault of mine and it was a horrible way to die.

Unfortunately dogs do die of bloat in the night when their owners are unaware and they come down to find a dead dog in the morning. It isn't something I would want to experience.

I personally know an owner who came down to find his Border Collie had died in the night. Taken to the vet over a period of time but undiagnosed illness. The dog was believed to have had lymphoma but a PM was not done.

It is naïve to believe that dogs do not die in the night. In fact I seem to remember that somebody on this forum found their dog dead in the morning from unknown causes.

If I can find the name of the forum member I will add it to the thread.

I think this thread is becoming unpleasant and I have nothing more to say.

But you did indeed imply that owners of dogs crated overnight were likely to not be aware that their dog was ill, and that they would therefore negligently allow their pet to die unnecessarily. What would the man with the collie have done, for his dog with the undiagnosed illness, if the dog had slept on his bed?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

"I personally know an owner who came down to find his Border Collie had died in the night. Taken to the vet over a period of time but undiagnosed illness. The dog was believed to have had lymphoma but a PM was not done.

It is naïve to believe that dogs do not die in the night. In fact I seem to remember that somebody on this forum found their dog dead in the morning from unknown causes"


I once came down to find my dog (13 yr old GSDxLab) had died during the night. She was not crated and had not been in a crate since she was about 5 months old. She was lying curled up on the sofa, having obviously died in her sleep. She had exhibited no symptoms before i went to bed.


The use of crates does NOT make it more, or less, likely that a dog will die in the night. I am sorry but I have no intention of ever allowing my dog to sleep on my bed, which would be the only possible way to notice that a dog was having a heart attack or similar.

If my dogs exhibit symptoms of illness during the evening, I have been known to sleep on the sofa next to the crate, so that I can intervene as necessary.

 

[CorvusCorax]

There is no mention of crates whatsoever in the Sudden Death thread, unless I've missed it? In beds, mostly?

 

[GSD Woman]

New here and an American and no I didn't vote for Trump, but I crate train my dogs so that I don't have to worry about them chewing on inappropriate things or bothering the cats. As housebroken adults they are free to sleep in their bedroom crates or loose, as they please. They also have crates in the office where they're fed. It works for us.
One thing that I can say with 25 years experience as a licensed veterinary technician is that dogs that are crate trained are usually less stressed in the vet hospital.

 

[Sandstone1]

I think crates have a place in training, but are often misused.
Too often puppies just get put in them to be out of the way. Its a lazy way to train. House training if done properly does not need a crate. It just takes time, effort and consistency.
Crates can be a safe place for puppy if introduced properly and used properly but often they are not.

 

[TGM]

I have never assumed that a dog would be crated while the owner is at home and during the owner's waking hours.

Actually it can be quite a good thing to crate a dog during the day whilst the owner is at home for short periods, particularly in the early days of crate-training a puppy. One of the biggest mistakes I feel people make with crate-training is that they only put pup in a crate when they are going to leave them, either when they go to bed or go out of the house. This can then lead to a negative association with the crate. That is why in the early days I like to use a mobile travel crate that I can take around the house with me. Routine would be take pup in the garden where she would hopefully toilet. Bring pup in and play with her, train her, cuddle her or let her explore under supervision or whatever. Once pup starts to get a bit sleepy she would get popped in the crate and taken to whichever room I needed to be in - whether that was to work on the computer or prepare dinner, for example. This allows me to concentrate fully on the task at hand, knowing pup won't wake up and slip off for a crafty nibble or widdle whilst I am concentrating on something else. When pup wakes up, I open the crate and whip her straight into the garden for a toilet break as it is common for pups to want to eliminate straight after a sleep. Once she has been to the toilet it is back in the house for more playtime and cuddles and the whole cycle starts again. This way pup doesn't automatically assume that going in the crate means mum is going to leave her. It has the extra advantage that it helps with the timing required for house-training, because it is so easy otherwise to get distracted by a phone call or whatever and miss pup is waking up and needs to go out. I don't think it is a particularly lazy way of training as it certainly takes up a lot of time in the early days!

 

[AmyMay]

My dog is not crate trained, and I will never use one for her. There's simply no need.

However, I have had dogs stay here who are crate trained, and it's been very useful - a young dog, and an older blind one. The pup would go in of her own volition at night, and I was happy knowing she was safe overnight. Likewise the little blind guy was only in his crate overnight, and again I knew he was safe.

They absolutely have their place. And provided they are used kindly and within limitations can be great.

 

[splashgirl45]

why cant we have a debate on here without people getting upset. there is no wrong or right. as long as the dog is happy and well looked there is no problem. it is just as wrong to leave a dog alone loose in the house as it is to leave them in a crate all day. i hope that nobody on this forum would do either of these ..it is nice to hear everybodys experiences with both options

 

[JillA]

The important phrase in all of this is crate TRAINING - you can't put a dog in a crate and expect it to take to it straight away. You TRAIN a dog to be happy in a crate (with food inside, with the door open, with toys, building to happy to be in with the door closed etc etc) and once you have reached that point you have access to an important tool for whatever reason. It may be that it is needed for recuperation after surgery, or to keep it safe while builders work on the house, or when other dogs visit or visitors who don't like dogs.
We don't keep our dogs in a natural environment for them, to avail themselves of all our comfortable life style has to offer sometimes they need to be restricted. Without a crate (playpen, stair gate etc) how are you going to do that and have them happy to be restricted in that way?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

skinnydipper-you might remember that I lost a dog through status epilepticus and it was utterly horrible and traumatic. it was during the day though and that particular dog wasnt crated in case she hurt herself while seizing so was gated in the kitchen initially then given the run of the front room when my old dog passed. I also, a very long time ago, lost a dog to an RTA when she was off lead-never forgiven myself for that one. I think everyone on here and many of the public do the best that they can for their animals, relatively few set out to fail or do their dogs harm.

ignorance is no excuse for poor animal welfare but there are always some owners to whom most of us will never measure up to for whatever reasons. to suggest that well cared for dogs, in a warm safe environment with the best of food and vet care are at risk of dying horribly and alone because they are crated overnight is a low blow and if this thread became uncomfortable then thats the post that did it imo.

 

[windand rain]

skinnydipper-you might remember that I lost a dog through status epilepticus and it was utterly horrible and traumatic. it was during the day though and that particular dog wasnt crated in case she hurt herself while seizing so was gated in the kitchen initially then given the run of the front room when my old dog passed. I also, a very long time ago, lost a dog to an RTA when she was off lead-never forgiven myself for that one. I think everyone on here and many of the public do the best that they can for their animals, relatively few set out to fail or do their dogs harm.

ignorance is no excuse for poor animal welfare but there are always some owners to whom most of us will never measure up to for whatever reasons. to suggest that well cared for dogs, in a warm safe environment with the best of food and vet care are at risk of dying horribly and alone because they are crated overnight is a low blow and if this thread became uncomfortable then thats the post that did it imo.

This says it all I am sorry you lost your dogs MOC. Defensiveness comes from attack and we all want what is best for our animals there are abusers in every field I like to think they are a rare and unpleasant small minority

 

[skinnydipper]

skinnydipper-you might remember that I lost a dog through status epilepticus and it was utterly horrible and traumatic. it was during the day though and that particular dog wasnt crated in case she hurt herself while seizing so was gated in the kitchen initially then given the run of the front room when my old dog passed. I also, a very long time ago, lost a dog to an RTA when she was off lead-never forgiven myself for that one. I think everyone on here and many of the public do the best that they can for their animals, relatively few set out to fail or do their dogs harm.

ignorance is no excuse for poor animal welfare but there are always some owners to whom most of us will never measure up to for whatever reasons. to suggest that well cared for dogs, in a warm safe environment with the best of food and vet care are at risk of dying horribly and alone because they are crated overnight is a low blow and if this thread became uncomfortable then thats the post that did it imo.

Thank you, MOC, I appreciate your honesty.

I do remember you went through the heartbreak of losing a dog to epilepsy.

As I said in a previous post, we all do what is best for us and our dog and if others wish to use crates I have no problem with that. I also said I would not rule out the use of a crate in the future if that was necessary.

I replied to the thread from a personal perspective and what has worked for me - this does not necessarily mean its right or the only way.

My fears of finding a dead dog in the morning may be unfounded but for my peace of mind I prefer my dogs to have access to me. It was an advantage not only with Annie and Nina but also my current dog, when he was very ill he came to let me know and I would get up and give him his medication and sit with him until he settled - incidentally he is in remission. I never knew before I went to bed if Annie would fit that night or if it was a night my current dog would be ill, there were no indications prior to going to bed that I needed to stay up with either of them. I would like to stress these are my fears and what I feel comfortable with.

If I have needed to keep the dogs out of the way, for instance men working in the house or when I have had a number of people back here after a funeral, then the dogs have been behind a closed door.

I know that I have made mistakes with dogs and still do, I have tried to learn from them and continue to learn. I have learnt from others sharing their views, tips and experiences. I have appreciated being a part of this forum with so many knowledgeable and experienced people willing to share.

I dropped out of the thread for personal reasons, I was feeling pretty low and did not feel up to continuing the discussion.

I don't do flounces or go in the huff and under normal circumstances would not discuss my health on the internet.

On Tuesday I got the results of an MR angiogram of my brain (not been feeling too good for a few months) and the result floored me and I am still trying to come to terms with it. The MRA showed that I have diabetic ischaemic disease of the brain and in addition to that have had several small infarcts (that's strokes to you and me). To cut a long story short it's important to control my blood pressure and blood glucose to prevent further damage. (I thought I had been controlling them but not well enough it seems).

So, obviously following the doctor's advice to the letter, on Wednesday I managed to get into an altercation on AAD - this is not conducive to my good health. I am supposed to be submitting my blood pressure readings for scrutiny - perhaps not this week's

I am not going to disappear into the ether. I will try to be helpful where I can and will endeavour not to express my opinions in a way that offends others. My sister tells me that I "tell it like it is" (or at least as I see it -which isn't necessarily the same thing) but I will do my best.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I am sorry to hear of your health worries skinnydipper and thank you for being so open. I expect most of us at some time or other are affected by offline problems that affect our online postings, we're only human and its completely understandable . wishing you all the best and hope that you can enjoy the holidays.

 

[splashgirl45]

so sorry skinny dipper, thats really rough for you. the trouble on a forum is that posts can be taken in different ways while if 2 people are chatting its easier to interpret the words in the way they are meant.....really hope you soon get some good news and your health improves...xx

 

[skinnydipper]

so sorry skinny dipper, thats really rough for you. the trouble on a forum is that posts can be taken in different ways while if 2 people are chatting its easier to interpret the words in the way they are meant.....really hope you soon get some good news and your health improves...xx

Thank you, Splashgirl. It's just one of several health problems that aren't going to go away and its just going to have to take its place in line. I'll be better once I get my head round it, if you'll excuse the pun.

It's the price of getting older and getting older is better than the alternative

 

[splashgirl45]

Thank you, Splashgirl. It's just one of several health problems that aren't going to go away and its just going to have to take its place in line. I'll be better once I get my head round it, if you'll excuse the pun.

It's the price of getting older and getting older is better than the alternative

this is what my doctor says to me as some of my problems are age related and wont go away. we just learn to manage them the best way we can....a friend of mine had a stroke in july and she is finding it very hard to adjust and i try to boost her up as much as possible while feeling so so sorry for her, but it also makes me realise how lucky i am to still be able to function even though not as well as i used to. hope you soon feel more able to deal with this latest blow xx