PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
I think I might start letting my dog out to roam around the village midden eating excrement and food waste... much more "natural" right?
Crates and toilet training - I need hive mind input!
- Thread starter Moon River
- Start date
windand rain
Well-Known Member
It makes me really sad that people wont crate train puppies I sincerely hope their dog never has a spell in a vets surgery as the stress of illness, separation and pain will be compounded by being confined in a crate at the vets when they have not learned it is a safe and comfortable place to be. I do not like any animal to be confined for hours on end hence my ponies living out 24/7 365 days of the year but they too are trained to be in a stable when needed and not to stress or agitate. My labrador is happy to sit in her crate or on the sofa next to me she gets to choose most of the time the only time the door is closed is to protect her from toddler fingers and if we are overcrowded in our tiny house so she doesnt get trodden on
By the way it is also illegal to travel an uncrated or un restrained dog in a car so if you are taking your dog with you it has to be either in a crate or safely harnessed in the back seat of your car I know which my dog prefers either loose in a crate or trussed up like a chicken in the seat
By the way it is also illegal to travel an uncrated or un restrained dog in a car so if you are taking your dog with you it has to be either in a crate or safely harnessed in the back seat of your car I know which my dog prefers either loose in a crate or trussed up like a chicken in the seat
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moosea
Well-Known Member
I think that was me. A dog cannot adjust to living free in the home if they are shut into a crate in my opinion.
While I do understand that crates can be used to help with training, I don't like them.
I did not say that.
So you used the crate for when you were not there with him.
I don't use crates.
How you choose to train your dog is up to you. I choose not to use crates.
I have never had reason to keep my dogs - when I had more than one - seperated.
I do not understand what you mean by safe? My dogs live in my house with me.
moosea
Well-Known Member
That is just silly! Any reasonably adjusted dog will be fine in the vets! Do you hook your kids up to heart monitors on a regular basis so they won't be frightened if they have to go to hospital?!!
windand rain
Well-Known Member
now that is silly you can reason with and explain to a child you cannot do with a dog and of course shutting in a dog that is not comfortable with it is going to add to the stress they feel if they know it as a safe place it is easier for then. And no a dog not used to being crated even for short times has added stress when at the vet, a point that is easily avoided if you train your dog properly for any eventuality
Annette4
Well-Known Member
This is why I crate my dogs (these are not my dogs however they have destroyed two doors when left alone with their crate doors open.
CorvusCorax
Deary me...
Fair enough, but another poster did use the terms horrid and unnatural.
What you did say, and what I took as you giving advice, was (and I shall reply IN SHOUTY CAPITALS lol)
Toilet training is not that hard (IT WASN'T FOR YOU/YOUR DOG - PLENTY OF POSTS HERE INDICATE OTHERWISE).
Make sure you take the dog/ puppy outside very regularly and gradually extend the time between outside visits. (I THINK EVERYONE DOES THAT REGARDLESS)
If you do not want particular items chewed - move them. (AS ABOVE, WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO REMOVE EVERY STICK OF FURNITURE)
If you want to keep the dog out of a certain room then use a baby gate. (MY DOG JUMPED THEM IN ONE GO)
If you buy a puppy then understand that you need to put a lot of effort into being around to help them learn and adjust to living in your home and with your routine. (I THINK EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THIS)
My dogs are my companions and they have always had free access to all areas except for my bedroom. (ME TOO - INCLUDING BEING FOLLOWED TO THE TOILET - JUST NOT OVERNIGHT/WHEN I COULDN'T WATCH THE YOUNGSTER AS HE WOULD HAVE KILLED HIMSELF CHOKING TO DEATH ON SOMETHING)
They never learn to behave in the house if they are never given access to the house. (MY DOGS DO GET ACCESS TO THE HOUSE - JUST NOT OVERNIGHT).
moosea
Well-Known Member
Using shouty capitals is not required, brackets seperate your thoughts from mine.
blackcob
🖖
*prepares bingo dabber*
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
i thought this thread was going to get a bit argumentative so i took a pic of my boy this morning an hour after i had got up and let both out in the garden. he rushed out, had a wee and got back in bed as he hadnt finished his sleep and was most put out when the camera flashed him...then a pic of both dogs getting as close to the fire as possible,...the main reason my terrier is crated when i am not there is that he seeks out any wires and will chew them. he chewed through the hoover wire which was plugged in but luckily the socket was turned off. he also chewed my laptop charger which again was switched off at the socket. i do not want to come home and find a dead dog and cannot afford to keep replacing wires...!!!!!!!! 
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MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
I am sitting here with my 2 GSDs sprawled at my feet, but come bed time they will dive into their crates and settle happily there. Having lived with dogs for 60+ years crates are a relatively new thing to me but I would never have a dog now without crate training them.
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rabatsa
Confuddled
I designed my new kitchen to be dog friendly and include a crate. the greyhound prefers to sleep in the crate rather than in the living room and the puppy, which is no longer this size (she is now 21kg and 5 months old) also likes to take over in it when she can.
Attachments
rabatsa
Confuddled
TGM
Well-Known Member
Whilst I quite understand that some people may choose not to crate for various reasons, it does seem to be a misconception amongst the 'anti-craters' that those that crate-train don't give their dogs access to the house. Crate training is not about training a dog to live forever in a crate like a hamster. When you crate train a puppy, the aim is to increase free access in the home until the pup reaches a point where the crate is no longer needed. You can't train a pup not to chew or mess in the house when you are not there to supervise, so the crate is an interim measure to prevent this behaviour overnight or when you are out of the house for short periods. With both my pups I gradually increased the time they had free access until they no longer needed to be confined to a crate on a regular basis by the time they were a year old.
My whippet is two now and I can't remember the last time we shut the door on the crate in the house, although she still loves to go in there and will automatically go there at bedtime in preference to the dog bed. However, we do still crate her at other times, for example, in the horsebox or when staying over in other people's houses. She has free access to most of the house most of the time, including the bedrooms if people are in them, apart from being shut in the kitchen overnight.
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
I use crates and have done for over 20yrs.
Initially I used them for in the car only.
I used on for my current lurcher who was 2 yrs old when she arrived, she was not house trained and the crate allowed me to restrict her at night and house training was easier and she was reliably clean in 3 days.
My current puppy is about 12 weeks old and is a filthy madam, the crate has helped get her cleaner at night amd has to be used at anytime she is not supervised or she will pee anywhere, poops are getting better.
I also have crates in my van allowing me to take 3 working collies, a working springer, a pet springer, a pet lurcher and a puppy all on one trip for a decent walk in different places daily.
All the dogs are entire and we have no trouble when walking or crated (I can choose who is with who).
The working collies and the non working springer are kennel dogs, the others are house dogs. The lurcher is now only crated in other people's houses or hotels, the working springer is only crated for travel.
My lurcher is stroppy when travelling so travelling her loose with lots of dogs could cause big problems, the dogs are also safer confined rather the flying round in the back of the van if we had an accident.
I would like to add that IME for most dogs being crate trained does not make a vet stay any easier, many dogs shut down (not positive), many howl whilst the majority do just seem to cope. Crate trained or not does not seem to have a bearing on this.
It does however help dogs enormously if they need strict rest for a period of time and have to be crated at home if they are used to the crate.
Initially I used them for in the car only.
I used on for my current lurcher who was 2 yrs old when she arrived, she was not house trained and the crate allowed me to restrict her at night and house training was easier and she was reliably clean in 3 days.
My current puppy is about 12 weeks old and is a filthy madam, the crate has helped get her cleaner at night amd has to be used at anytime she is not supervised or she will pee anywhere, poops are getting better.
I also have crates in my van allowing me to take 3 working collies, a working springer, a pet springer, a pet lurcher and a puppy all on one trip for a decent walk in different places daily.
All the dogs are entire and we have no trouble when walking or crated (I can choose who is with who).
The working collies and the non working springer are kennel dogs, the others are house dogs. The lurcher is now only crated in other people's houses or hotels, the working springer is only crated for travel.
My lurcher is stroppy when travelling so travelling her loose with lots of dogs could cause big problems, the dogs are also safer confined rather the flying round in the back of the van if we had an accident.
I would like to add that IME for most dogs being crate trained does not make a vet stay any easier, many dogs shut down (not positive), many howl whilst the majority do just seem to cope. Crate trained or not does not seem to have a bearing on this.
It does however help dogs enormously if they need strict rest for a period of time and have to be crated at home if they are used to the crate.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
There seem to be some very strong opinions on why a dog should be crate trained and some of the people who use crates/cages seem to be very defensive. Folks do what suits them and their dog and I do not condemn those who find it useful to crate train their dog. I would not categorically state that I would never use a crate in the future, rather I have not found it necessary thus far.
People who choose not to confine their dog to a cage should not be made to feel they are failing their dogs by not doing so.
I am not going to subject a dog to years of crate confinement on the off chance it may have to be confined to a cage in the vets. The dog is more likely to be upset at being away from home and family and in strange surroundings.
My dog/dogs have always had the run of the house, including bedrooms, and access to the garden via a dog door when I am home. I have never had a problem with destructive behaviour or had to separate them. Settled and relaxed at home in their chosen resting place - which they have never felt the need to defend. And yes, I do "understand dogs as dogs" and dogs like to be with their pack not isolated from them. I have had 2 dogs out of 10 who liked to dig a den/make a nest. They managed to do this without access to a crate.
I had no problem toilet training a puppy of 8 weeks, without the use of a crate. He had been kept in an outbuilding at his previous home so toilet training had not previously been initiated. He came into a house with 7 happy, relaxed, unconfined dogs and there were no issues. The dogs and the cats were happy to share a bed with him.
My dogs have always had access to me at night. My deaf dog let me know if she needed to go out, the darkness was disorienting for her and night lights were not enough. I have also had dogs who came to let me know they were ill. One of my dogs had prolonged grand mal seizures which required rectal Diazepam and I needed to hear if she had a fit, I couldn't have done that if she had been locked in a crate downstairs.
How terrible it must be to get up and find a dead dog and not to have been aware it had taken ill and needed you. Bloat, for instance, is a painful way to die.
I used a baby gate during the night to prevent access to the garden if Annie was post ictal. It would be more than sufficient to stop a puppy's progress if that was necessary.
Yes, you will be able to train a dog to go into a cage or crate to sleep and I am sure through habituation it will become the norm for that dog.
I was asked to take in an elderly whippet who came complete with crate, she had spent the majority of her life in there which was one of the reasons I agreed to take her. I was told she urinated in the house and scratched the doors unless she was in the crate. I think her problems stemmed from spending many hours alone. The crate was immediately dispensed with and I had no problems with her loose in the house, she was a poppet and loved to snuggle with me or another dog or cat - how much nicer for her than a crate.
I don't use a crate in the "dog bus" but do have a dog guard designed for the vehicle. 8 dogs travelled together with no problems. All with their leads attached, no tangles, everyone in their favourite spot.
I can understand why you might want to crate a puppy if you are not available to supervise or toilet train but why does an adult dog need to be crated? Does it have behavioural issues?
I wonder how many hours out of 24 some dogs are confined.
Just my two penn'orth.
Is the following post relevant to the discussion about dog crates?
"I think I might start letting my dog out to roam around the village midden eating excrement and food waste... much more "natural" right?"
People who choose not to confine their dog to a cage should not be made to feel they are failing their dogs by not doing so.
I am not going to subject a dog to years of crate confinement on the off chance it may have to be confined to a cage in the vets. The dog is more likely to be upset at being away from home and family and in strange surroundings.
My dog/dogs have always had the run of the house, including bedrooms, and access to the garden via a dog door when I am home. I have never had a problem with destructive behaviour or had to separate them. Settled and relaxed at home in their chosen resting place - which they have never felt the need to defend. And yes, I do "understand dogs as dogs" and dogs like to be with their pack not isolated from them. I have had 2 dogs out of 10 who liked to dig a den/make a nest. They managed to do this without access to a crate.
I had no problem toilet training a puppy of 8 weeks, without the use of a crate. He had been kept in an outbuilding at his previous home so toilet training had not previously been initiated. He came into a house with 7 happy, relaxed, unconfined dogs and there were no issues. The dogs and the cats were happy to share a bed with him.
My dogs have always had access to me at night. My deaf dog let me know if she needed to go out, the darkness was disorienting for her and night lights were not enough. I have also had dogs who came to let me know they were ill. One of my dogs had prolonged grand mal seizures which required rectal Diazepam and I needed to hear if she had a fit, I couldn't have done that if she had been locked in a crate downstairs.
How terrible it must be to get up and find a dead dog and not to have been aware it had taken ill and needed you. Bloat, for instance, is a painful way to die.
I used a baby gate during the night to prevent access to the garden if Annie was post ictal. It would be more than sufficient to stop a puppy's progress if that was necessary.
Yes, you will be able to train a dog to go into a cage or crate to sleep and I am sure through habituation it will become the norm for that dog.
I was asked to take in an elderly whippet who came complete with crate, she had spent the majority of her life in there which was one of the reasons I agreed to take her. I was told she urinated in the house and scratched the doors unless she was in the crate. I think her problems stemmed from spending many hours alone. The crate was immediately dispensed with and I had no problems with her loose in the house, she was a poppet and loved to snuggle with me or another dog or cat - how much nicer for her than a crate.
I don't use a crate in the "dog bus" but do have a dog guard designed for the vehicle. 8 dogs travelled together with no problems. All with their leads attached, no tangles, everyone in their favourite spot.
I can understand why you might want to crate a puppy if you are not available to supervise or toilet train but why does an adult dog need to be crated? Does it have behavioural issues?
I wonder how many hours out of 24 some dogs are confined.
Just my two penn'orth.
Is the following post relevant to the discussion about dog crates?
"I think I might start letting my dog out to roam around the village midden eating excrement and food waste... much more "natural" right?"
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windand rain
Well-Known Member
I dont think anyone is suggesting keeping a dog in a crate for years just in case it needs to go to the vet what I suggested was that every dog should be trained that a crate is a safe and comfortable place to be. I hate stables but many people think it is ok to stable a horse for hours on end to me this is the same as a dog being crated 18 hours a day. My dog is crated when she wants to be or for her own protection she finds her crate a place of comfort and safety as do most of the dogs I know that have been properly crate trained she by the way has never stressed at the vets when she has been ill. I do think it is essential for dogs and horses to be trained to accept confinement as you never know when they may need it. I also firmly believe that dog should have the freedom to choose where they want to be mine is at my feet as I type she has spent about an hour in her crate today as my grandson was visiting she chose to go there to keep away from him. He is nervous of dogs so doesnt interact with her he just ignores her and she ignores him. Horses that are stabled for long hours and most are have a miserable existance as they are habituated to being in a cold confined and usually dreary small box because they need to eat and that is where the food is is is also their toilet which is not the case for a crated dog as they rarely foul the crate.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
Ho is using a baby gate any different to a crate really? It's still using metal bars to separate an area you don't want your dog to go from another area? It's not about size, it's about appropriate use of restrictions and ensuring all dogs get enough stimulation
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
If you had read my post properly then you would see that it was used only to confine a dog who was post ictal . The post ictal period follows a fit and in Annie's case she was confused and unsteady and it would have been unsafe for her to wander around alone in the garden in the dark.. And yes, I do think there is a world of difference between a baby gate and a crate.
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skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I do not agree that every dog should be crate trained. We will have to disagree on that point. Why should a dog need protection in its own home, what is she seeking protection from?
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twiggy2
Well-Known Member
For what it's worth my puppy when in the crate at night started in our bedroom as she was very distressed being in the doorway with the other dogs, after 5 weeks she is now happy in the crate in the doorway at night, when she is reliably clean she will be allowed loose with the other dogs at night.
A crate doe not mean isolation in fact it's th opposite.
A crate doe not mean isolation in fact it's th opposite.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Twiggy, please read my first paragraph again. I have no problem if people want to use a crate for their dog. I wanted to show the other side of the coin as there has been a very strong bias towards crates.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
I have no strong bias towards crates, we use a big double crate for the Rotters, we used a crate for 2 GSD x Lab pups until they were old enough to sleep in the kennel with the others dogs. Prior to that we have always kennelled our dogs, overnight but I do strongly object to the assumption that those who use a crate, confine their dogs to it for many hours a day.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I was not assuming how many hours a dog was confined - I wondered how many hours SOME dogs were confined. I know for a fact that my little whippet had been confined in a small crate during a long working day and also all night and possibly even longer than that. She was also infrequently walked and had no toys or other stimulation but that's another story.
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bonny
Well-Known Member
Nobody will be surprised to hear that I have an opinion at odds with the majority on here and I would never put a dog of mine in a cage
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I seem to have stirred a hornets nest.
Before anyone else jumps on me I would like to state I have never owned a high drive or working dog and understand that they would have different requirements to my average family pets.
Before anyone else jumps on me I would like to state I have never owned a high drive or working dog and understand that they would have different requirements to my average family pets.
Moon River
Well-Known Member
Still reading, thank you to the contributors on both ends of the spectrum, its all interesting input. Sat here with two bored cats, who say its too cold to go outside, fighting round my feet I might crate them instead...
blackcob
🖖
I am also wondering at the 'all or nothing' view that those using crates must surely be using them for hours and hours a day. I couldn't tell you the last time I shut the door on dog #1's big downstairs crate, possibly it's been years. They sleep upstairs in our bedroom, uncrated (increasingly on the bed - privileges of age!) and have full run of the house during the day.
What crates have allowed me to do is conquer the horrifically destructive separation anxiety that one dog arrived with, habituate them to travelling safely all over the country doing lots of exciting things; sports, competition, training sessions and holidays, to occasionally come to work with me when needed, to introduce a new small breed puppy to two grumpy old gits without him becoming a snack the second he arrived, and to encourage said puppy to learn to widdle in the right place a bit quicker for the sake of my floors and sanity.
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
I think, as a crate fan, that the non craters talk as though we just pop our puppy in one and never speak to it again.
They are a handy, modern tool. Lots of people are change averse, personally I embrace it if it makes my life easier. I don't live in a Utopian world where all my dogs can live together, unrestrained, all the time. I sometimes have to go out and do not want to find it has all gone wrong in my absence. Possibly this is a lazy or selfish attitude but I have a life outside dogs (not much of one, but a little bit) so occasionally when they are less than 6 months old they have to be inconvenienced.
They are a handy, modern tool. Lots of people are change averse, personally I embrace it if it makes my life easier. I don't live in a Utopian world where all my dogs can live together, unrestrained, all the time. I sometimes have to go out and do not want to find it has all gone wrong in my absence. Possibly this is a lazy or selfish attitude but I have a life outside dogs (not much of one, but a little bit) so occasionally when they are less than 6 months old they have to be inconvenienced.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I have never assumed that a dog would be crated while the owner is at home and during the owner's waking hours. I know many people on here spend a lot of time exercising, stimulating and competing with their dogs.
I felt the need to speak up for the non crate users (who seem to be in the minority and having a hard time) and merely stated what has worked for me without the use of a crate. I also said I would not rule out the use of a crate in the future if that were necessary.
As with everything it is what works for you and your dog that is important but we are all entitled to explain what has worked for us. Many of the pro-craters have expressed very strong opinions and I believe someone stated that every dog should be crate trained.
I was confident that I could go out for a few hours on my motorbike when I still had one and know the house would not be wrecked and the dogs would not fight in my absence.
I felt the need to speak up for the non crate users (who seem to be in the minority and having a hard time) and merely stated what has worked for me without the use of a crate. I also said I would not rule out the use of a crate in the future if that were necessary.
As with everything it is what works for you and your dog that is important but we are all entitled to explain what has worked for us. Many of the pro-craters have expressed very strong opinions and I believe someone stated that every dog should be crate trained.
I was confident that I could go out for a few hours on my motorbike when I still had one and know the house would not be wrecked and the dogs would not fight in my absence.
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