Cross Country "Equitation"

TarrSteps

TarrSteps

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At a recent Championship in Ontario the organisers added an equitation competition to two of the lower classes, judging riders on how effectively and SAFELY they rode a section of the cross country course. Judges were upper level riders, including a couple with good 4* mileage, who are also successful coaches. They judged a "loop" of five fences, including, I believe, a water complex and gave marks and comments, similar to a dressage test. The results were not involved in the actual competition at all but there was a separate award for the highest scoring riders. In addition, a few riders identified as being dangerously low scoring were treated to a chat with the TD, not as punishment but as an explanation for why they got the marks they did and why concerns were raised.

As one would expect, there has been much debate, with the usual resistance to anything new and/or containing a subjective element.

Thoughts? Is this something useful? I understand it's much easier to fly in North America with the huge culture of Equitation competitions, but I'm interested in what the usual safety debate participants think of the idea in general terms.
 
Were they judging just effectiveness/safety, or style as well?
(I know the 2 can be closely linked - not very closely in my case
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I think that's an excellent idea! Although obviously it shouldn't be judged on prettiness alone, it should be judged on how the rider's effectiveness with what the horse they are sat on presents as issues/challenges. I think JAS wanted to acheive this, but to be honest it is too far removed from cross-country proper.
 
They award a prize for the most stylish XC round at the Pony Club Champs, but no feed back, And I suppose it is similar to the theory of the JAS series, however the quality and usefulness of the comments is very much dependant on the judge!
Coming from the showing/WHP I am perfectly used to having my riding/round 'marked'.
I think it is a good idea BUT it requires the 'judges' all to be singing from the same hymn sheet so to speak, often a stumbling block, IMO.
 
I believe position was a factor in the marking, at least as far as having a secure lower leg etc. At least in theory the emphasis was on safe riding - appropriate speed, reacting to circumstances, control of the horse etc. - rather than "prettiness".

From what I understand they did it at the equivalent of BE90 and BE100 and, as said, it was a championship so presumably made up of better riders in the division. I don't know if it can catch on, especially since the market is so relatively small in Canada, but I applaud the effort on the part of the organisers.
 
That sounds like a fab idea and definitely something I would like to see BE do, at BE90/100, it would certainly give me confidence to move up a level or make me have second thoughts dependant on the comments and score.
 
I think style prizes would be a great idea. Not sure if including a score for "safety" is good. XC riders need to be forward, attacking, balanced and controlled riders. Making them think they are being judged on safety may encourage over-protective and backward riding.
 
QR - I think it is an excellent idea - and how easy would it be for BE to implement at 1* these days where they have committed to having a member of the CDT present to help with course walks and warm ups etc, and where the ground jury have an interest in watching the XC etc.

Before anyone says anything about that level, at Aldon last year concerns were raised about one rider and their ability to go XC by the ground jury after the dressage, and no, that rider did not complete the XC.

I also think it would be brilliant to have it at BE80 (where a trainer should be on hand anyway), BE90 and BE100 - perhaps more difficult at the latter two levels in terms of representation, but easy enough at the Grassroots Champs, surely?
 
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I think style prizes would be a great idea. Not sure if including a score for "safety" is good. XC riders need to be forward, attacking, balanced and controlled riders. Making them think they are being judged on safety may encourage over-protective and backward riding.

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Well then they'd get a lower score surely and therefore that wouldn't be an issue? I think the safety aspect is an essential part of what this type of competition is trying to achieve and is something really positive which would be introduced.
 
Some of the schools comps do a similar thing. Trouble is the 'judges' were fence judges who were mums of the host school, some not horsey. The host school ran multiple teams and unsurprisingly won!
 
I'd worry about it becoming to much like JAS where those that sit pretty but arent necessarily always effective get the best marks.
Also if you're talking about taking it to 1* level you're going to have the issue with 'names'

As a concept though, I like it, and can see it being effective at BE80 and in pony/junior classes
 
What a wonderful idea, particularly the safety score aspect!!
In response to Chazza's comments, I think if the judge were worth their weight, then they would be discouraging backward/over protective riding in any case.
Having helped my mum coach cross country with alot of pupils over the years (as the person in charge of the camcorder), I have witnessed many a blip on the cross country due to inappropriate riding, and in many cases, riders aren't aware of what they are doing until they see it on film for themselves!!
 
I like the idea but have the same reservations as Boss would worry it would sort of turn into 'xc showing' if the same riders repeatedly appeared in those classes. I do think it would be good for the lower levels though BE80 T but have concerns that there is a sort of 'dumbing down' of event riders, if you can't feel/know that you have an insecure lower leg or are going too fast then you shouldn't be entering in the first place, you should really be getting lessons to improve it. I just worry that many riders now are going BE without adequate experience. I know I did every hunter trial course available to me when I was younger and HAD to go BE because I had exhausted all my local tracks, and wanted to progress, but I also spent several hours cantering around on salisbury plain in 2 point pushing on and bringing back, and generally practising my xc control minus the jumps, thinking about it now I don't know where I got the info from to do all this before BE but I think it was probubly the idea that BE was for pros, you had to be a very good rider to compete, that intimidated me into making sure I was as good as I could be before I entered. There just seems to be a basic foundation lacking for many riders nowadays, so maybe the idea of having to be passed by a BE accredited trainer (a bit like the BHS stage days) would help improve safety.

Sorry that got a bit long and off point!
 
I think it's an interesting idea, and needs to start at the lower levels ie Intro/PN - I think by the time people get to 1* their style is probably becoming quite ingrained and harder to change. I like the idea of introducing it through Pony/Junior clases as these riders are still in full-time education and are used to being "critiqued", although undoubtedly there is a need for it for adults too
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I think GinBins' mention of a camcorder is interesting too as she's right that often riders don't feel what they are doing, they need to see it! We don't use video enough for XC training, presumably for the obvious reason that it's quite hard to do. Perhaps something could be devised as an add-on to existing PN/Intro classes where your round is videoed (like Total REcall and that other company do already) and you pay a fee for which you purchase the video and get it judged by an accredited trainer/CDT Coach against set criteria like a dressage test, as well as with scope for more general feedback. There would be prizes for those getting the best marks.

This has the advantage that the judge wouldn't have to see every step of every round "live". I haven't thought it all through properly and there are issues, eg obviously it couldn't be decided on the day, results would have to be posted later which isn't ideal etc. However, it might have mileage - might be worth involving some of the many companies which are now starting to video XC, as they might be interested in sponsoring as a further incentive to people to buy their product. And BE might get involved from a training/safety point of view.
 
Many years ago I took part in the national riding club championships for "equitation show-jumping"; this was effectively a working-hunter style course of jumps (mostly rustic/brush etc) but the round was marked for effectiveness, position and style (eg getting the right stride into fences, getting through a double in harmony with the horse etc) as well as for poles knocked down.

At the regional qualifier I came 2nd and my team won.

At the national final I was eliminated for missing a fence (due to being left behind at a fence and, by the time I had regained the reins etc we had sailed past a fence and I didn't notice) - however the team results were done on a 3-out-of-4 discard system and, luckily, the others did well and we won!

It's actually quite satisfying to jump a course and not only go clear but get a result that says you jumped clear well.
 
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It's actually quite satisfying to jump a course and not only go clear but get a result that says you jumped clear well.

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I'd second this - when PP won the Open JAS at Hartpury, I got a real kick out of having won the "style" bit as well as the jumping, so these competitions might be surprisingly popular - as long as the judging was seen to be sensible and equitable as others have said...
 
I think it's a really good idea, and I like the videoing aspect.

HOWEVER with something so subjective I hope a bad mark doesn't get received in a similar fashion to how a lot of people view a bad dressage mark: 'we did a lovely test but the judge didn't agree and we got 44.5'. People would have to have a change of mindset and appreciative that if you're given 4/10 say for safety/style over a fence it might not be because the judge didn't like you/your horse/your XC colours but because actually you're NOT particularly safe.
 
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I think it's a really good idea, and I like the videoing aspect.

HOWEVER with something so subjective I hope a bad mark doesn't get received in a similar fashion to how a lot of people view a bad dressage mark: 'we did a lovely test but the judge didn't agree and we got 44.5'. People would have to have a change of mindset and appreciative that if you're given 4/10 say for safety/style over a fence it might not be because the judge didn't like you/your horse/your XC colours but because actually you're NOT particularly safe.

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I think the chat with the TD would really, really help avoid that, because I agree, it is a real concern. I know people don't take criticism well, especially when they truely believe they are ok, and sometimes it does take someone saying 'no, you cannot do that/enter that/ride like that' or whatever to really make them face up to their own issues....
 
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I think it's a really good idea, and I like the videoing aspect.

HOWEVER with something so subjective I hope a bad mark doesn't get received in a similar fashion to how a lot of people view a bad dressage mark: 'we did a lovely test but the judge didn't agree and we got 44.5'. People would have to have a change of mindset and appreciative that if you're given 4/10 say for safety/style over a fence it might not be because the judge didn't like you/your horse/your XC colours but because actually you're NOT particularly safe.

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That's what I think they were trying to address with the "quiet word" to people who gave the judges cause for concern. Not so much to criticise as to explain what, exactly, worried the judges and how they came to that conclusion.

Of course, not everyone is going to be happy all of the time, but hey, that's horses.
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And life.
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I'm interested in the "pro equitation" vibe on this thread. Equitation is a HUGE part of hunter/jumper showing and even dressage shows now ofter Eq classes. I suspect some of the grumbling about introducing it in eventing is that many people get into eventing in North America especially to avoid getting judged on "how" the ride vs results.
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The "riding pretty" aspect IS a problem in standard Equitation (there are both working hunter and show jumping versions), at least at the lower levels but I think that's largely because it's been divorced from results. If it's done in concert with a actual competition I think it would have more force.

I think it's one of those things where the people who would grumble the most are likely the target audience, whereas most other competitors wouldn't care one way of the other. But the logistics and added expense are bound to be a sticking point, don't people think?
 
I agree about the grumblies!

But as for logistics and expense - well, the BE80 have to have a trainer there anyway, so it's surely not beyond the wit of man to have it set up so they and AN Other can watch them ride round?

And that is a level which should be targeted with this IMO. Personally I'd love it - I think there are a few things you could do with it too - how about a lesson with a BE accredited trainer for the worst person of the day, no-one wants to be last and I wouldn't suggest presenting it to them (!) but a quiet word would surely be softened by the handing over of a voucher to help them improve? I don't want anyone to think I advocate rewarding bad riding, but at least this way the good people are rewarded and the bad are helped?
 
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I'm interested in the "pro equitation" vibe on this thread. Equitation is a HUGE part of hunter/jumper showing and even dressage shows now ofter Eq classes. I suspect some of the grumbling about introducing it in eventing is that many people get into eventing in North America especially to avoid getting judged on "how" the ride vs results.
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Have thought for a while that classes similar to the North American Hunter/Jumper classes would be useful in the UK. They would encourage riders to think and learn about rhythm, stride length and balance whilst jumping, all relevant to good xc riding.
Also, having watched the Celebrity Jump Cross on line was wondering (if the series was embraced by BE and expanded) if it could be used as a qualification for riders wishing to compete in affiliated horse trials. To be successful in Jumpcross, you have to be fast, bold, accurate and well balanced, again all relevant to good xc riding.
 
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I think style prizes would be a great idea. Not sure if including a score for "safety" is good. XC riders need to be forward, attacking, balanced and controlled riders. Making them think they are being judged on safety may encourage over-protective and backward riding.

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Well then they'd get a lower score surely and therefore that wouldn't be an issue? I think the safety aspect is an essential part of what this type of competition is trying to achieve and is something really positive which would be introduced.

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As I said earlier, I think style prizes would be a great idea. However, I feel xc riding should be a positive experience. If you take a group of inexperienced riders and tell them they are going to be marked on rhythm, balance, position, control and accuracy; that would be positive. If you tell them they are also going to be judged on how safe they are (which is a byproduct of rhythm, balance, good position, control and accuracy) it may encourage them to be less forward.
When you leave the start box you should be thinking about rhythm, balance etc. Worrying about safety at that time may make you less safe IMO.
 
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Personally I'd love it - I think there are a few things you could do with it too - how about a lesson with a BE accredited trainer for the worst person of the day, no-one wants to be last and I wouldn't suggest presenting it to them (!) but a quiet word would surely be softened by the handing over of a voucher to help them improve? I don't want anyone to think I advocate rewarding bad riding, but at least this way the good people are rewarded and the bad are helped?

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absolutely. btw, i was told that every year the winners of the JAS comps, who have won big training vouchers to spend with a BE trainer of their choice iirc, never bother to use their prizes, so save BE (i guess?) or at least the sponsors of JAS, thousands of pounds.
i replied that obv the winners think they don't need the training, so the vouchers should go to the worst (who'd prob love the opportunity), not the best... my suggestion wasn't taken up!
if anyone has any spare vouchers, please send them my way!
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btw, i think TD'd idea of having the rounds video'd and then marked is a great one, they could be used as a training tool as well then. really not difficult to have a few people positioned around the course with good videocams, surely? i have 1 person right here who'd be happy to do it! (OH, ace with vidcam, brilliant to have such footage to rip my riding to bits!)
 
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I think style prizes would be a great idea. Not sure if including a score for "safety" is good. XC riders need to be forward, attacking, balanced and controlled riders. Making them think they are being judged on safety may encourage over-protective and backward riding.

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Well then they'd get a lower score surely and therefore that wouldn't be an issue? I think the safety aspect is an essential part of what this type of competition is trying to achieve and is something really positive which would be introduced.

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As I said earlier, I think style prizes would be a great idea. However, I feel xc riding should be a positive experience. If you take a group of inexperienced riders and tell them they are going to be marked on rhythm, balance, position, control and accuracy; that would be positive. If you tell them they are also going to be judged on how safe they are (which is a byproduct of rhythm, balance, good position, control and accuracy) it may encourage them to be less forward.
When you leave the start box you should be thinking about rhythm, balance etc. Worrying about safety at that time may make you less safe IMO.

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TBH, if it is aimed at the lower levels, especially BE80 where a trainer is available, then it is not a great leap of imagination to have a talk - either on a course walk or pre the start of the comp - in which the concept of riding safely XC is explained? I also think a lot of the places you see issues are the fences which do not need to be galloped at - coffin fences for example - where people come in too fast 'because it's XC and should be ridden forwards'...just another take on it.
 
I think I must misunderstand, too.
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I think the point of the name/aim was to make it not about "pretty" or about one particular type or style of ride, but to emphasis that proper basics - including the ability to judge and control appropriate pace - was the basis or riding safely. So going too slowly would be just as potentially harmful - and low scoring - as going too fast. Also, since the judging was done in the context of a normal, competitive event, anyone who rode too conservatively under a mistaken impression it would garner them points for the safely award would have risked forfeiting a chance in the actual event.

Perhaps, as SC says, the point is in how you define/explain "safety". I'm sure the naming in this case at least partly reflected the cause that's on everyone's mind because the people who organised the competition were looking at it as a potential way of addressing that particular hot button issue. So instead of being about "pretty" they made it about "safe" as, honestly, it's hard to argue with that goal.
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From what I hear, it was a moot point in this particular case anyway. There were enough "proper" problems that it hardly came down to whether or not people were riding competitively or not. They also did not tell people in advance precisely so they could not change the way they rode, consciously or unconsciously. Perhaps the "trick" would be to hold such a competition by surprise, at limited events not identified in advance?
 
TS the whole thing sounds like it was run in a really good way with positive outcomes. I'd love to see such a thing introduced here. I like the 'surprise' element of it, that seems really smart.

I'd be really keen on BE running something similar, I wonder if it would be possible to pitch the idea to them and get the Canadian people to talk the format through with them?
 
"I'll get my people to talk to your people"....

=)-

But I think it is an excellent idea and desperately needs introducing down here! Some of the riding you see at the lower levels (and some of the higher levels!) is shocking. Sadly I can not ever see it taking off, as we don't even have(that I am aware of) equitation classes to start with...
 
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