Cruel or just horsemanship?

I think you missed my whole point entirely as i think most people would agree bear dancing is cruel as IMO is horse dancing and just because some of you are trying to justify the horse dancing by saying oh well some people jump on hard ground and oh i've seen worse it just doesnt make it ok. 2 wrong don't make a right was my point.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the problem with this, the horse looks like it's been trained and is responding to the handlers body language.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is responding to the handlers body language then why is it being kneed in the ribs? If you see nothing wrong with hammering the horses legs making it piss about on concrete, kneeing it in the ribs, then hitting it with some sort of whip to make it go down on it knees on conrete then I'm affraid it's you that should not be owning animals not me. Just because i don't hammer my horse at competitions at every chance i get doesn't mean i do nothing with her. Some people own horses just for some fun schooling, jumping and hacking and it doesn't mean they are doing nothing with them.
 
Naturally - I totally don't agree with dancing bears, they are kept in appaulign conditions and treated terrible and trained in inhumane ways.

Random_rach - of you truely believe a horse is born a wild animal then surely you believe it is wrong to keep it in captivity and make it carry your weight around, the wild horse would not do this naturally and you need to TRAIN the horse to take a saddle and rider, int he same you you have you train a horse to dance. I would say it was hypocritical to say a horse is a wild animal and not be asked to do 'unatural' things when you ride.
Re the kneeing in the ribs, do you not nudge your horse in the ribs as an aid to go forward? You can't see how hard the man is kneeing that horse, he could be exerting less pressure than you do when you kick with a heel. I am starting to thing you are a tree hugging manic that probably keeps a horse with no manners that is a danger to ever one that goes near it as you believe it is cruel to ask the poor poor animal to do anything and impose any dicsipline on it?
 
Or not....
crazy.gif
 
I would have to agree that the performance of these movements is not really very different to training a horse to perform dressage and probably causes similar stresses on the limbs to trotting on roads IMO. I don't really agree with the fact he kneed the horse in the ribs and i cannot fully comment on the video because i don't know the training methods used. It is obviously a tradition in their culture, i am sure they would not agree with many of our traditions such as foxhunting (but that's a whole other debate).
 
"Random_rach - of you truely believe a horse is born a wild animal then surely you believe it is wrong to keep it in captivity and make it carry your weight around, the wild horse would not do this naturally and you need to TRAIN the horse to take a saddle and rider, int he same you you have you train a horse to dance. I would say it was hypocritical to say a horse is a wild animal and not be asked to do 'unatural' things when you ride."

No it is completely different, you don't put the horses legs under that pressure when doing your normal school nor do you train it by whipping it constantly and pulling it in the mouth.

"Re the kneeing in the ribs, do you not nudge your horse in the ribs as an aid to go forward? You can't see how hard the man is kneeing that horse, he could be exerting less pressure than you do when you kick with a heel."

If he was just giving it a little nudge he wouldnt have had to knee it.

"I am starting to thing you are a tree hugging manic that probably keeps a horse with no manners that is a danger to ever one that goes near it as you believe it is cruel to ask the poor poor animal to do anything and impose any dicsipline on it?"

I don't believe it is cruel to compete at a higher level of dicipline. Just because I'm not out competing it doesn't mean your any better than me. And oh yeah.. look at my siggy my pony looks F***ING dangerous don't it. My horse has manners and i don't get it to do things by beating the crap out of it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the problem with this, the horse looks like it's been trained and is responding to the handlers body language.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is responding to the handlers body language then why is it being kneed in the ribs? If you see nothing wrong with hammering the horses legs making it piss about on concrete, kneeing it in the ribs, then hitting it with some sort of whip to make it go down on it knees on conrete then I'm affraid it's you that should not be owning animals not me. Just because i don't hammer my horse at competitions at every chance i get doesn't mean i do nothing with her. Some people own horses just for some fun schooling, jumping and hacking and it doesn't mean they are doing nothing with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hammering the horses legs on concrete?! So are all mounted police officers the most EVIL people in the world - as they do much much worse. Hunts canter down roads, and even myself (shock horror) will do a hack in trot on roads.


One word for all I've seen so far: Racism.
 
[ QUOTE ]
i don't get it to do things by beating the crap out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And ti hardly looks like it has had the crap beaten out of it. To me it's no different to watching haute ecole or grand prix. But then again, they are pakistani, so they couldn't possibly have a clue about horsemanship
 
Ok we can agree to disagree, I view horses like dogs and cat born domesticated but you don't. The world would be a boring place if we all agree on everything! I'm in no way putting you down for not competing and I don't think I'm better than you but how I was reading your post made me think you didn't agree with training a horse at all, clearly I was mistaken. Your horsey doesn't look dangerous but I would say the pic on the right of your sig looks a tad dangerous but not from the ponies point of view, I'd put a hat on before standing on my horse's back
crazy.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
A horse is born a unhandled, untouched, wild animal that's something called a FACT unlike your stupid allegations!

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute bollocks. It has been proven that domesticated animals and wild animals are actually very different. For instance, hand reared zebra's cannot be trained to the same degree that domesticated horses can because they are wild.. their instincts are different.
 
Hammering the horses legs on concrete?! So are all mounted police officers the most EVIL people in the world - as they do much much worse. Hunts canter down roads, and even myself (shock horror) will do a hack in trot on roads.


One word for all I've seen so far: Racism.

It isnt the same as trotting on road the movent it is doing is going right back on hind legs and kneeling down on front knees. It isnt even the same as dressage as they don't do it on concrete and they wear some form of protection on the legs to help with percussion.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A horse is born a unhandled, untouched, wild animal that's something called a FACT unlike your stupid allegations!

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute bollocks. It has been proven that domesticated animals and wild animals are actually very different. For instance, hand reared zebra's cannot be trained to the same degree that domesticated horses can because they are wild.. their instincts are different.

[/ QUOTE ]

The natural instincts of the horse are still there but can be re-trained to a certain extent but it doesn't mean it will never spook especially when 1st handling a foal, it doesnt know what a halter is so therefore it 1st instincts are to go against it. They get used to things through repititions but aren't naturally ok with them. My horse is spooked by horses galloping near it which is a natural thing as she would run with the herd away from danger.
 
QR The horse does not look scared to me it looks like its concentrating and listening to its handler.. I dont think its cruel Probrbly some of the better looked after horses (not meant in a racist way)
 
Most dressage horses will train with bandage or boots but to be honest this doesn't reduce the strain on their hocks, tendons or fetlocks when asked to do advanced movements. They stop the horse knocking itself and also keep the leg warm which should increase blood flow. This is quite an interesting article about boots and bandages and what they do ....
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/other_equipment.php
 
[ QUOTE ]
No it is completely different, you don't put the horses legs under that pressure when doing your normal school nor do you train it by whipping it constantly and pulling it in the mouth.

The kneeing in the ribs, do you not nudge your horse in the ribs as an aid to go forward? You can't see how hard the man is kneeing that horse, he could be exerting less pressure than you do when you kick with a heel."

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure a number of disiplines and for want of a better word 'careers' put horses legs under that serious stress. As mentioned before, police horses, trotting on roads, racing on hard ground, showjumping and hunting. They are all things that are unnatural to the horses and put strain on limbs.

Although it is undesirable and not a training method i am sure a number of riding school horses are jabbed in the mouth on a daily basis by novice riders. Please do not assume not i am slamming riding schools or those who ride there cos i was too one and we all have to learn somewhere.

As for kneeing the horse, i have seen many people boot their horses in the sides whilst riding and i am not saying that is how people should ride but surely it is the same thing but there is less uproar about this. I think perhaps because it is something we see more often, where as i persoanally have never seen horse 'dancing' before.
 
I think it just went a little off point with the zebra's though i was saying i didn't agree with bear dancing or horse dancing whether the animal is wild or not. My points against the horse dancing were that it was being done on concrete, the horse being hit quite alot, the horse looking slightly nervous, that it had no sort of protection on its legs and that it was being made to kneel down on hard concrete and the actual dancing being kind of last on the list(if that makes sense) and the fact they are no moving in the same way as a dressage horse as the 'dancing' horses were right back on their hinds legs, it was a completely different movement to any of the dressage and with alot more pressure on the legs.
 
I just wondered if anyone had any advice on a similar matter to this.
A friend had to sell her horse , 1 year ago , due to personal circumstances, sold for £2000 ,passed 5 stage vetting, verbal agreement with new owner , was not to re sell the horse , If ever to be sold, to be sold back to my friend.

My friend was told that they were attempting to sel this horse to all and sundry , in the past few months, contacted the owner who said he had been sold, then said he hadnt , he was on loan , The loaner has now vetted the horse , and wanted to buy , for £4000 approx, Horse failed vetting quite badly, has had leg injuries while with this owner.

My friend wants this horse back so much , but owner is defiant and for some reason will not sell the horse back to my friend!! and is trying for a lot of money esp for a horse that wont pass vet , although the loaner does not want the horse now, but is continuing to loan / ride/ jump the horse, possibly causing more damage , where does my friend stand?

owner is talking about Auction sales or meat man for the poor horse!!!

Friend wants to ahemm ,"take " the horse back , this would pretty much amount to theft , wouldnt it ?
Horse is still registered as my friends on passport , Microchip etc , but the owner has these documents, What can she do within the law really ??
any help ??? would it be a civil matter , or criminal , theft etc ?????
 
1. much lighter horse than the majority of high level dressage horses
2. the horse is meant to have its hocks underneath it
Calyx%20Piaffe.gif

3. it is actually wearing knee boots
4. also to mention the bandages again... for support they do sweet FA

QED
 
[ QUOTE ]
I would agree with that statement, i have seen horses in far worse condition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, most people have seen worse but just because something is worse doesn't make the original thing ok. I've seen things being beaten and jabbed in the gob to jump and all sort of things and someones horse and the yard next to mine went lame because she did a small xc course with no boots on it a few weeks ago on rock hard ground but it wouldnt make it ok because one is worse than the other.
 
Kate you mean the dancing horse was wearing knee protection? I don't think it was as it flapped about when it was moving i think it was just a bit of material for decoration.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I just wondered if anyone had any advice on a similar matter to this.
A friend had to sell her horse , 1 year ago , due to personal circumstances, sold for £2000 ,passed 5 stage vetting, verbal agreement with new owner , was not to re sell the horse , If ever to be sold, to be sold back to my friend.

My friend was told that they were attempting to sel this horse to all and sundry , in the past few months, contacted the owner who said he had been sold, then said he hadnt , he was on loan , The loaner has now vetted the horse , and wanted to buy , for £4000 approx, Horse failed vetting quite badly, has had leg injuries while with this owner.

My friend wants this horse back so much , but owner is defiant and for some reason will not sell the horse back to my friend!! and is trying for a lot of money esp for a horse that wont pass vet , although the loaner does not want the horse now, but is continuing to loan / ride/ jump the horse, possibly causing more damage , where does my friend stand?

owner is talking about Auction sales or meat man for the poor horse!!!

Friend wants to ahemm ,"take " the horse back , this would pretty much amount to theft , wouldnt it ?
Horse is still registered as my friends on passport , Microchip etc , but the owner has these documents, What can she do within the law really ??
any help ??? would it be a civil matter , or criminal , theft etc ?????

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know there is anything she can do TBH... As for the owner now I'm guessing she doesn't want to give horse back as she don't want her to see what horrid damage has been done to the poor horse or atleast thats how it seems.
 
I am not saying it would make it ok, but i think it is more productive in the case of animal welfare to improve general husbundry because as a rule people who are putting money into the welfare of their horses are less likely to mistreat them because they are putting money towards them (if that makes any sense). Not that i am saying this is morally right. All i meant was that this horse appears to be suffering less than than a number of other horses i have seen, both in the UK and abroad in that it is not completly emaciated and doesn't appear to have any obvious injuries.
 
That video does seem rather mild...here's a straight from the whorese's mouth way, and (suitably framed) video


"Give em a good hard jerk on th stud chain. Or put them in a position where they can't go forward or backwards. I started Hermosa in her barn stall. When shed move forward id blockk her and jerk the lead when she went back id smack her on the butt with the whip once they give up you can then focus on the legs. But make sure your not in kicking or striking range! And when they get really mad they might bite. So be careful."

dancing horse

It seems to be an accepted practise in Mexican 'charro' training,
frown.gif
I expect there are kinder, longer ways of achieving similar, some horses in Egypt do this at liberty and between the pillars or on long reins, and seem quite happy, some obviously dont
frown.gif
 
Thats what i thought , Horse when sold, sailed 5 stage , but recently failed terribly , scars, Leg injuries, 2 splints!!! Sore back etc etc , has been lame a lot and continues to be on / off

Thanks for your thoughts
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top