Crufts 2018

Blimey this has turned into a real 'head desk' thread hasn't it!

The basic facts of life being what they are YCBM, it is exceptionally unlikely that ANY breeder who undertakes proper responsible breeding will make a profit from selling their puppies. Ergo, those who do make a profit are taking short-cuts in some area - and that is totally unacceptable. This is why I personally object to those who make money from breeding from their bitch.
 
ycbm said:
No that is NOT what I am condoning. Have you actually read my posts? You are agreeing with me!!! What I am condoning is your first description of the breeder of your pup making a profit.
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Yes, your post was if a field full of free mares can't produce workable foals why can't the same be true for dogs? (in summary). You said as long as they would be loved there was no harm in their being bred, you said pets could be put in whelp and therefore become 'working dogs'. Not the same thing at all.
 
Lévrier;13741397 said:
Blimey this has turned into a real 'head desk' thread hasn't it!

The basic facts of life being what they are YCBM, it is exceptionally unlikely that ANY breeder who undertakes proper responsible breeding will make a profit from selling their puppies. Ergo, those who do make a profit are taking short-cuts in some area - and that is totally unacceptable. This is why I personally object to those who make money from breeding from their bitch.
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Clodagh's pup's breeder makes a profit.

And I am in the middle of hill sheep farming country. Round here, people breed unregistered working border collies, strong sound dogs, for profit.

I think that's fine. Other people don't. No problem, let's agree to differ :)
 
Yes I don't agree that breeders don't make a profit, or that it is morally wrong. Your definition of a breeder is different to mine, ycbm. Let'e leave it at that, as you say.
 
Clodagh said:
Yes, your post was if a field full of free mares can produce workable foals why can't the same be true for dogs?
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No it wasn't! That would be a completely stupid thing to have said.

What I said was 'if it's OK to breed foals for profit why isn't it OK to breed pups for profit?'.

And we agree that it is ok to breed for profit so I hope we can stop at that, since we do agree.
 
ycbm said:
Clodagh's pup's breeder makes a profit.

And I am in the middle of hill sheep farming country. Round here, people breed unregistered working border collies, strong sound dogs, for profit.

I think that's fine. Other people don't. No problem, let's agree to differ :)
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So, they cut corners - no health testing, no registration, probably not a decent quality of food. I said RESPONSIBLE breeders don't make a profit....
 
Lévrier;13741417 said:
So, they cut corners - no health testing, no registration, probably not a decent quality of food. I said RESPONSIBLE breeders don't make a profit....
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Wow, judgmental assumptions or what!?

No, they don't cut corners and yes they are responsible breeders. Some of these dogs are by or from very high class trials dogs. And they are all lovely strong puppies who lead active and long working lives on local farms.

Kennel Club members aren't the only people who can breed good healthy dogs responsibly!
 
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Which illustrates how little you know about the whole matter - Kennel Club members just pay a fee to a club, it doesn’t make them better or more qualified than anyone? Hence the ridiculous scheme that is the Accredited Breeder scheme

I really couldn’t care less if you think I’m being judgemental - it is a fact that someone who is a responsible breeder will ensure that they only breed from health tested parents of the best lines, regardless of whether they are breeding dogs, horses or anything else
 
i really hope the lady who bred my pup made a profit. From the amount of work she put in she certainly deserved to. She did everything correctly so she won't have made as much as someone who didn't do health checks, good food and all the rest of it but I hope she came out of it OK. If she didn't then she is almost subsidising me having a dog.

A litter of say 8 pups is £8000. Surely there is profit to be made even if it is all done correctly. If those are quality, tested pups what is wrong with profit?
It is not profit that is the problem but people breeding from poor quality animals and that applies to horses as well. Then there is the public who don't carry out the necessary checks to get as healthy a dog as possible.
 
Clodagh, if your breeder paid herself a decent wage for the hours she puts into producing each pup do you think she would still turn a profit?
I kind of think the same about the farm dogs, those farmers have created pups worth money because they have spent the time working and trialling the dogs used to produce them so they are creating stock people will pay for because of what they can do.

I've given it quite a lot of thought and I think I conclude it's fine to make a profit it you manage to, to breed with the intention of good profit margins, not so much.
 
Lévrier;13741417 said:
So, they cut corners - no health testing, no registration, probably not a decent quality of food. I said RESPONSIBLE breeders don't make a profit....
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I’m not a breeder but I did have a litter of pups from my bitch last year. The health testing was around £500, the stud fee slightly more than that. KC reg was around £20per pup, my insurance premium was fairly negligible, their food worked out about £80 for 30kg grain free premium food, they were flead and wormed and 1st vaccs, chipped etc - I went by the book and I didn’t cut any corners that I know of. I let them go at 10weeks, I sold 4 of them under MV to friends and family, two at MV (that I could have sold several times over) and kept one for myself and I did make a profit. Did I do something wrong? Genuinely interested where my corners were cut?
 
ester said:
Clodagh, if your breeder paid herself a decent wage for the hours she puts into producing each pup do you think she would still turn a profit?
I kind of think the same about the farm dogs, those farmers have created pups worth money because they have spent the time working and trialling the dogs used to produce them so they are creating stock people will pay for because of what they can do.

I've given it quite a lot of thought and I think I conclude it's fine to make a profit it you manage to, to breed with the intention of good profit margins, not so much.
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Does she make a profit in real terms? Maybe not. But she is retired, training and competing her dogs is what she does anyway.
 
So...she reinvests in the dogs, then? :)
I don't know why anyone would want to fund the purchase of (for example) cars, foreign holidays, conservatories or household goods, off the back of a pet animal. Maybe it's just me!
 
CorvusCorax said:
So...she reinvests in the dogs, then? :)
I don't know why anyone would want to fund the purchase of (for example) cars, foreign holidays, conservatories or household goods, off the back of a pet animal. Maybe it's just me!
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My dogs get fed (what I consider to be) a very high quality food, they have their exercise and their training, their insurance, their annual vaccs etc regardless - so regardless of whether I offset my “profit” from breeding on their food and their training, it is still a profit, so I do get where YCBM is going with her argument. I’m “reinvesting in my dogs” but then they are my family and my hobby and my life and I’d be spending X amount on them regardless.
 
CorvusCorax said:
£1000 a pup? Ouch.
I can see why some people are making a profit selling pet dogs.
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I don’t see why an ethically bred dog that is destined to be a lifelong pet or working dog for someone shouldn’t be worth £1000? And yes, if the litter is big enough or it’s a second/third litter and the health testing has been done previously there would be some kind of ‘profit’ to be made. It’s up to the breeders to not cut corners and to Vet purchasers but it’s also up to buyers to do their homework and buy from responsible breeders.

Of course there will be the unscrupulous, there is in all walks of life, and few people would support backyard breeding purely for profit.

I do get your unease at breeding pedigree for profit, but at the end of the day if the breeds are to survive in their healthiest possible state surely this is more likely to happen if there is potential for financial gain.
 
£1000 is the top end of pricing for a GSD pup. I could find a pup with really good lines , with full health test and working/show qualifications for less than that. However I don't know the breeding of Paddy555's pup and he may well be from one of the top kennels. Conversely there is a very dodgy kennel, albeit with a very impressive website, which charges £3000 a pup !
 
I don’t agree with bitches having one litter after another anymore than I’d agree with horses doing the same. I know a couple of people that do this with their pet dog just because the puppies can sell for over a thousand each. They don’t seem to consider the risks to their much loved pet at all, just see it as an easy way to make money.
 
meleeka said:
I don’t agree with bitches having one litter after another anymore than I’d agree with horses doing the same. I know a couple of people that do this with their pet dog just because the puppies can sell for over a thousand each. They don’t seem to consider the risks to their much loved pet at all, just see it as an easy way to make money.
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If it is healthy and happy, what's wrong with it doing something which is entirely natural? (I'm happy to have it explained to me that a bitch that breeds every year cannot be happy or healthy, and why, if that's the case).

Can you explain why you think it is OK for a mare to be ridden for year after year, some at very strenuous sports, but not for it to stand in a field making a foal? If you gave a mare a choice I think we can be pretty sure she'd choose the foals.

Also, where do you think horses to buy would come from if people did not run brood mares whose job is to produce a foal most years? Or are you suggesting that horses should go back to being a sport only for the rich?
 
ycbm said:
That’s a whole other can of worms! I don’t believe horses should be available cheaply to some of the people that have them and clearly can’t even afford their care. If they couldn’t buy them for a few quid it might help.

I’ve had children and although it’s perfectly natural, I know the effect it’s had on my body. I think I’d like to preserve my pet as much as possible so that she lives a long and healthy life rather than breed from her so I can afford to go on holiday next year.
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Again, I am not talking about breeding herds full of wormy scrubby coloured cobs or people who can't afford them owning horses. Those are different issues than the question of why a mare should not produce a foal a year rather than compete at dressage, for example. I'm not sure human childbirth compares. The mare doesn't have to do the housework, go back to work, or look after the other kids and in most animals labour seems a lot less onerous than in women.
 
Bitches should not produce a litter every season. The Kennel Club, who care about very little except money, will not register back to back litters. (I am pretty sure, but stand ready to be corrected).
 
The KC states “Licensed breeders must: Not mate a bitch less than 12 months old. Not whelp more than four litters from a bitch. Not whelp two litters within a 12 month period from the same bitch.” Which is very different to what the person I know who’s breeding from her pet is doing. That just has one litter after another and will do until it’s too old.

The KC obviously believe that constantly reproducing can be detrimental to health or presumably they wouldn’t have these rules?
 
I could get an ethically bred show or working pup from health tested, well performing parents for less than £1000 or the equivalent in euro elsewhere, but having slept on it I do appreciate there may be regional differences!!
If people are happy to pay that sort of money and upwards, then I suppose people will charge, even though it may make me a little uneasy.

I know of females who get bred year on year and (yuck) back to back (in my own breed and others, females can have two seasons in a year) and they don't look particularly happy to me. I personally find it abhorrent. Please don't ask me to explain myself lol, I can't put into someone else's head what I can see with my own eyes.
 
From my recent experiences looking for a puppy to be a family pet, the designer mongrel and unregistered dog market are pushing up the prices. I saw designer mongrels going for £800 with no health testing and border collies from untested unregistered parents going for £500-750. I followed up on these ads and it seems like none have problems selling their puppies at these prices. So it’s understandable to me that those breeders who carefully select lines for optimum health and who health check their dogs, who raise them on good diets and socialise them well, would think they deserve a better return than the ‘I have two nice dogs who could make pretty babies together’ breeders.

I made a decision when buying my dog that I did not want to reward breeders who put no thought into health testing. One breeder who owned both the notch and dog told me that temperament was the most important thing, to which I replied that temperament is very important to me, but I wanted to minimise the risks of my lovely tempered dog suffering from hip dysplasia, eye issues or epileptic fits and so I would not be buying her puppy. Those same 9 puppies have all sold for £500 each. The two parent dogs came from an ‘agent’ who ‘sources’ border collie puppies from welsh farms. There is little traceability on these dogs and for all I know the two dogs are closely related.

So whilst my dog cost more than I had expected to spend, I know that he is from lines with no known history of epilepsy, they are all DNA clear of genetic conditions, hip scored, eye tested. The breeder breeds for the love of it, she only has 2 bitches who are part of her family and the bitch will have no more than 3 litters in her life. She only had 3 puppies in her last litter. To sell 3 good quality puppies at £500 each, vaccinated and microchipped and kept for 10 weeks does not generate much profit or money to reinvest in the dogs, so she charged a higher price. I made a decision to pay it to support a breeder who is doing things the way I would want them done. Fortunately for me, I have ended up with a dogs who’s temperament is incredible, and if I had known just how fantastic a temperament he had I would have paid more (if I had the money!!)
 
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