Curing a Rushy Nappy Youngster?

[HufflyPuffly]

So Skylla will be the big 5 this year so we are upping the work now she's finally starting to look more mature! However we are still a mixture of bouncy, jog-joggy rushing and napping. I know this is an odd mixture as although nappy minded she is very forward generally!

The napping is probably improving the most as her confidence improves and I've taken a more no nonsense approach. For context she has never gotten away with napping, always gone the way she's suppose to in the end, but I had been being a little more softly softly as I believe it's a confidence thing. She's getting more confident and so I am now being a little quicker/firmer with "no you go forward over there".

I am intrigued with her napping as there have been posters on here who claim they can curing napping quite quickly, whereas we seem to be still having regular down tools and strop moments. Am I being too soft, should it just be nope onwards with no moment to process? The main thing she naps to is the other horses (despite being fine to be on her own in the field/stable on occasion, full of contradictions this one ), rather than the gate or home. Not had a napper before so a little worried I've let the habit form for good, but she hasn't ever 'won' just needed a moment to process so I'm not sure what else I can do apart from being more forceful about it and really don't want a battle... Currently she gets kicked on and put on a circle if she fancies going air-born.

The rushing however, is driving me mad as I really hate jogging!

In the school we do multiple loop serpentines to get my leg on and her bending, this seems to work well and her schooling is coming on well. Out hacking is a different matter though! Our hacking is pretty rubbish so we tend to do the same rides which I don't think is helping as she gets super bouncy when she knows she's on the way home. I've tried doing mini serpentines as per the school, I've tired halting when the bouncing starts then walking and repeating, I've tried circling, I've tried trotting and then walking to get the energy out (this definitely doesn't work ), longer reins and she gets faster, but did get a little success with halting combined with longer reins (she's pretty responsive to the seat aids) so will continue this. Plus all of this is an absolute pain when out with company as no-one wants to be stopping all the time when their horse is behaving!

Should I just grit my teeth and ignore and hope she outgrows it when in more work? Surely she will realise at some point it's less work to just walk...

So the great and wise HHO'ers what would you do with a rushy, nappy youngster? Others seem to think we're doing well but I'm always worried I'm going to mess her up .

Picture of the naughty baby horse in question:

To add, she is an absolute superstar in loads of other ways so I guess it's just the highs and lows of youngsters!

 

[paddi22]

aw shes lovely. i had one that was nappy and i long reined him on the roads a lot. There was no point hacking him out with others as he was fine, it was by himself the issue arose. He had a filthy spin so i used to ride in draw reins to stop the spinning and that worked well, i could catch him before he did it.
he was a jogger too and i spent the whole time doing walk trot transitions if he started jogging. As soon as i could feel him wanting to speed up at all i'd push into trot and do tons of walk trot transitions. eventually he would slow and i'd give him a super loose contact and praise him. i also had to really watch my own body that i wasn't anticipating him jogging and pulling back with my hands or seat.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Thank you, she's been long-reined a lot as part of the backing process and is much less nappy when I'm on the ground. Luckily she's not the most co-ordinated of horses so spinning is currently not favoured, we plant, then launch and buck when told to move on .

Hmm maybe I need to do trot/ walk transitions then, will give it a go thank you . I really try and lengthen her with my seat and encourage her to swing as she much prefers to do a daft bouncy walk/jog which we've mostly solved in the school but hacking not so much!

 

[Britestar]

I do lots of neck flexing and leg yield from side to side of the road. This can often defuse a nap attack. I also ride with 2 schooling whips out hacking, which are used simultaneously at a backward though - also an excellent toll!

 

[gunnergundog]

Thank you, she's been long-reined a lot as part of the backing process and is much less nappy when I'm on the ground.

Get someone to walk with you when you ride; get them behind you as if long reining and gradually get them to drop further and further back.

 

[DabDab]

I'm not sure that you ever truly 'cure' a horse who's natural go to is napping, in the same way as I'm not sure that you ever really 'cure' a horse who's go to is to zap off at speed. But you can get it to the point where it's not really noticeable to onlookers and doesn't affect anything you normally do with them.

I think when people say that they have 'cured' a napper they mean that they have cured the overt slam the anchors on, spin, scoot backwards etc. But in a natural napper the covert nap is still there, lurking. The covert nap gets displayed in behaviours such as doing everything you ask when you ask it but at the speed of a lame snail; getting fast or silly when heading in a favoured direction; going stiff as a board in one direction...etc.

Gradually as they grow up and more is expected of them they learn that this sort of stuff is not the way to go, and yes it is largely about being fairly no nonsense about it all. Make it clear to them how they are expected to behave in given situations and then stick very firmly to that. With jogging I tend to either do transitions, or if that doesn't work I 'ask' for the jog myself. So I hold them up in a decent frame and pulse a leg aid in time to their jog as if I'm asking for it and then after maybe 30 seconds or so I'll praise them and give the normal aid to walk from trot and relax the reins. For some reason it confuses them into walking...not sure if I've explained it oh so well though...

Anyway, good luck with her, she sounds like she's coming on fab in all other areas

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I do lots of neck flexing and leg yield from side to side of the road. This can often defuse a nap attack. I also ride with 2 schooling whips out hacking, which are used simultaneously at a backward though - also an excellent toll!

This is what the serpentines do and works for us in the school, but had little effect on the hack...

Not tried whips as despite the napping (honestly she loves a contradiction) she is VERY forward off the leg and seat aids.

The napping is really improving and only now really an issue in the school, so we nap in the school and rush out hacking.

Get someone to walk with you when you ride; get them behind you as if long reining and gradually get them to drop further and further back.

This is actually a very good point to encourage more relaxed solo hacking, thank you!

I'm not sure that you ever truly 'cure' a horse who's natural go to is napping, in the same way as I'm not sure that you ever really 'cure' a horse who's go to is to zap off at speed. But you can get it to the point where it's not really noticeable to onlookers and doesn't affect anything you normally do with them.

I think when people say that they have 'cured' a napper they mean that they have cured the overt slam the anchors on, spin, scoot backwards etc. But in a natural napper the covert nap is still there, lurking. The covert nap gets displayed in behaviours such as doing everything you ask when you ask it but at the speed of a lame snail; getting fast or silly when heading in a favoured direction; going stiff as a board in one direction...etc.

Gradually as they grow up and more is expected of them they learn that this sort of stuff is not the way to go, and yes it is largely about being fairly no nonsense about it all. Make it clear to them how they are expected to behave in given situations and then stick very firmly to that. With jogging I tend to either do transitions, or if that doesn't work I 'ask' for the jog myself. So I hold them up in a decent frame and pulse a leg aid in time to their jog as if I'm asking for it and then after maybe 30 seconds or so I'll praise them and give the normal aid to walk from trot and relax the reins. For some reason it confuses them into walking...not sure if I've explained it oh so well though...

Anyway, good luck with her, she sounds like she's coming on fab in all other areas

Yes that was my thinking about once a napper, always a napper. So was quite intrigued to 'curing' them and maybe I was missing something.

Asking for the jog is something I've not tried so will give that a go!

Typically she was an utter superstar tonight despite the wind and cold! Even with the temptation of another horse in the school, which normally results in napping to the other horse, she was pretty much foot perfect.

Maybe the more we do and she continues to grow in confidence (and confidence only ), the rushing out hacking will improve too, but nice to have some more tools to try out thank you everyone!

Picture from tonight

 

[rachk89]

I dont have anything to add other than..

She's cute and looks taller!

Also now that I've seen it, I am so sure I bought the same rug that you have on her, but I lost mine. That or I am going insane. Thing is, I never got a chance to put it on my horse as I never needed to use it after I bought the damn thing, so I dunno where it went. Gonna have to find it now.

 

[milliepops]

I'd agree with dabdab that some horses just have that natural backward inclination that will pop up periodically throughout their training.
You can cure it to the extent that you educate the horse that, e.g. whipping round etc isn't acceptable behaviour, but they will still have that reaction as their go-to when challenged, even if it's not overtly displayed.

Kira is a backward thinking horse , she will nap in the school if we have a little disagreement but it's less and less frequent and less dramatic as her education progresses. She's also a rather whizzy buzzy thing, it's a funny combination but quite common.

In your shoes id just keep on going. You're making loads of progress and I think gradually it'll become less and less of an issue, she's had a good start in life so it's not like you've got a load of poor training to undo just normal baby horse stuff.

 

[gunnergundog]

Prioritise what is important to you. For me the priority would be to get a horse going forwards in whatever direction I chose - albeit in walk/jog/trot/canter or gallop.......

The second task would then be to get that forwardness in the pace of my choice....

 

[Peregrine Falcon]

she's not the most co-ordinated of horses

It's those long legs that the problem I think!

Youngsters question things when they're not understanding properly. Patience and time is key. I have been very lucky with my mare. She goes out in company, on her own and to date has not shown any nappiness.

In the beginning I had my friend come walking alongside me and as we got more confident she moved further away until she wasn't anywhere near us.

 

[gunnergundog]

Just to add, not knowing the history of the horse, that the horse also needs to gain confidence and trust in you. I had a youngster that had been overly produced for the high performance horse sales; I could take it into a field/on the gallops and it would piaffe as a 4/5 year old on the buckle end whilst others took off in front of it. It was a big strong youngster that had scared people along the line and had no doubt received a thrashing in response....no-one could carry a whip on it for many years unless the adrenaline was up (XC phase of eventing or hunting excepted) - that is unless they wanted to hit the deck.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I dont have anything to add other than..

She's cute and looks taller!

Also now that I've seen it, I am so sure I bought the same rug that you have on her, but I lost mine. That or I am going insane. Thing is, I never got a chance to put it on my horse as I never needed to use it after I bought the damn thing, so I dunno where it went. Gonna have to find it now.

Hmmph no not happening definitely still 15.2hh now and forever .

It's the Rambo thick fleece wrap around one, can only use it when it super cold as it so warm! I definitely bought my own and didn't steal yours :lol:, but as a fellow loose'er of rugs that have been bought and never worn I sympathise!

I'd agree with dabdab that some horses just have that natural backward inclination that will pop up periodically throughout their training.
You can cure it to the extent that you educate the horse that, e.g. whipping round etc isn't acceptable behaviour, but they will still have that reaction as their go-to when challenged, even if it's not overtly displayed.

Kira is a backward thinking horse , she will nap in the school if we have a little disagreement but it's less and less frequent and less dramatic as her education progresses. She's also a rather whizzy buzzy thing, it's a funny combination but quite common.

In your shoes id just keep on going. You're making loads of progress and I think gradually it'll become less and less of an issue, she's had a good start in life so it's not like you've got a load of poor training to undo just normal baby horse stuff.

Ah ok glad it's not just me then and if she's like Kira then winner winner!

I think it's the 'all the training is from me' is what's unsettling me, any mistakes are of my making rather than re-training someone else's... I just need to man up mentally I think . Plus stop comparing her to other 4/5 year olds who always look perfect and lovely, and not napping sods who you wonder will ever find walk relaxing .

Prioritise what is important to you. For me the priority would be to get a horse going forwards in whatever direction I chose - albeit in walk/jog/trot/canter or gallop.......

The second task would then be to get that forwardness in the pace of my choice....

Ok maybe I need to cut her more slack out hacking then, as even on our solo hack we had minimal napping ( stopped to stare at cows was all) just rushing.
So I need to be clearer in my mind what I want to achieve, I'm good in the school and she's making good progress but hacking isn't something I've 'taught' before if you know what I mean so it's a big learning curve!

It's those long legs that the problem I think!

Youngsters question things when they're not understanding properly. Patience and time is key. I have been very lucky with my mare. She goes out in company, on her own and to date has not shown any nappiness.

In the beginning I had my friend come walking alongside me and as we got more confident she moved further away until she wasn't anywhere near us.

Little Skylla legs just struggle with coordination that's all .

Yes I think you're spot on with her not quite understanding stuff so her comfort blanket is the other horses, plus slight stroppiness when I say no to whizzing about in canter . I wonder if someone walking round the school would help still, maybe I need to arrange a lesson when the horses are in the field or try and arrange some shared lessons.

Just to add, not knowing the history of the horse, that the horse also needs to gain confidence and trust in you. I had a youngster that had been overly produced for the high performance horse sales; I could take it into a field/on the gallops and it would piaffe as a 4/5 year old on the buckle end whilst others took off in front of it. It was a big strong youngster that had scared people along the line and had no doubt received a thrashing in response....no-one could carry a whip on it for many years unless the adrenaline was up (XC phase of eventing or hunting excepted) - that is unless they wanted to hit the deck.

Aww poor horse that's sad. Skylla fortunately (or not ) has only had me from being two, and I've done all the backing myself. She's definitely not been rushed, but does still need to gain more confidence I think.

 

[gunnergundog]

Ok maybe I need to cut her more slack out hacking then, as even on our solo hack we had minimal napping ( stopped to stare at cows was all) just rushing.
So I need to be clearer in my mind what I want to achieve,

.

Stopping to look at something as a baby is NOT napping! Let the horse look at things, take them in etc etc.....so long as they don't spin etc that is not napping. They need time to assimilate new sights and experiences without someone on top tensing up and telling them that it is an issue.

This is why in my late 60's I am still able to buy a four or five year old WITH the right temperament that can win at BE100 first time out.

 

[milliepops]

I think it's the 'all the training is from me' is what's unsettling me, any mistakes are of my making rather than re-training someone else's... I just need to man up mentally I think . Plus stop comparing her to other 4/5 year olds who always look perfect and lovely, and not napping sods who you wonder will ever find walk relaxing .

I think the self doubt is natural when you start
Don't forget she hasn't read the manual. So comparisons aren't always helpful, plus you don't know what those other youngsters struggle with (tinsel eating, perhaps :lol

I think as long as you have a strategy that is working , which seems to be the case, and support when you need it, then you aren't likely to go too far wrong. No more so than you would do with topaz... just because skylla is a baby doesn't change anything you already know and can do. Keep things simple and remain patient, it'll fall into place.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Stopping to look at something as a baby is NOT napping! Let the horse look at things, take them in etc etc.....so long as they don't spin etc that is not napping. They need time to assimilate new sights and experiences without someone on top tensing up and telling them that it is an issue.

This is why in my late 60's I am still able to buy a four or five year old WITH the right temperament that can win at BE100 first time out.

Hence I said minimal, she planted and stared at them (she's seen them before as she lives next door to them) and given the choice would have turned round for home, but given a couple of minutes to work it out went past, albeit she did bounce past them. It's still part of her napping, so minimal seemed appropriate, if it was the first time she's ever seen them then yes I wouldn't count it as napping either.

I think the self doubt is natural when you start
Don't forget she hasn't read the manual. So comparisons aren't always helpful, plus you don't know what those other youngsters struggle with (tinsel eating, perhaps :lol

I think as long as you have a strategy that is working , which seems to be the case, and support when you need it, then you aren't likely to go too far wrong. No more so than you would do with topaz... just because skylla is a baby doesn't change anything you already know and can do. Keep things simple and remain patient, it'll fall into place.

Why don't baby horses come with a manual it would make life so much easier :lol:, and stop being all lovely and logical I know she'll end up ok really, I just worry anyway . Maybe the tinsel eating should be a new sport she would be great at that .

 

[Casey76]

Tartine naps in the school, only to other horses. She is fine by herself, but if another horse joins us she just leeeaaaans towards them all the time; then she will have a shouting match if they leave.

It's always been the same, no better, no worse, for almost 4 years. I have no idea if she will ever get over it!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Tartine naps in the school, only to other horses. She is fine by herself, but if another horse joins us she just leeeaaaans towards them all the time; then she will have a shouting match if they leave.

It's always been the same, no better, no worse, for almost 4 years. I have no idea if she will ever get over it!

Well leaning over to them isn't so bad, we get planting and then launching about when she's told no you can't just follow them , but she is very much improving! Last night we had only the very initial threat of a nap attack (head in the air, light in front and slowed down) when asked to go in the opposite direction, so maybe the penny is dropping.

I've found just being consistent and firm seems to be working for the napping and relieved that others have horses who continue to nap though with a much reduced attempt, just got to find the best way to deal with the rushing now...

 

[smja]

My horse believes he's a pogo stick when out hacking sometimes, and he's 17 so there's no excuse

The only way I've found of defusing it is to not really react to him, just giving voice commands asking him to walk, then praising him when he does. He's not strong so isn't actually going anywhere, just bouncing up and down alongside a calmly walking horse who has no idea what the idiot's doing, but trying to make him stop bouncing makes him hysterical. When he gets like that he can kick out so I try to head it off before that becomes an issue.

The other thing that works if it's only when you're heading back is to go past the yard - go for a hack and instead of back onto the yard going straight past and do another loop if possible. The old 'going in the direction of home doesn't mean we're going home' thing.

 

[smja]

oops, double posted, sorry

 

[scats]

I'm pretty good with nappers. I've cured several to the point that they no longer even try and I wouldn't consider them at all nappy anymore. Of the recents, one was a nap-rear type, who's answer to any form of force was to go vertical and then spin. The other was my current mare who would just twist her neck and bulldoze me to where she wanted to go. I sorted the bulldozer in two sessions and the other in about a month.

It's very difficult without seeing the horse, but the first thing I do is become aware of the clues. They always have some sort of clue that they are going to do it, but often it's so subtle that the rider doesn't pick up on it. It could be a minimal ear flick, a slight tension in the back or neck, a very small raising of the head... even an exhale of breath. Second thing to remember is to always ride the shoulder, if you have control of the shoulder, you largely have control of the horse. Leaving a shoulder open is like opening the door and inviting them through it.
You need to be one step ahead of them for the first few weeks, as they will try it again at some point, usually when you are off your guard.

Rushing wise, have you started some lateral work? Making them think about their feet is always useful. Slow rising, lots of figures, try not to hack the same routes etc.

Lovely looking horse!

 

[milliepops]

I think there's a difference between being able to stop the horse moving its feet (or preventing it from stopping, depending on the type of nap ) and being able to totally reform the horse's character traits so that it never considers saying 'no' ever again though?
That's kind of what I and (I think) DabDab amongst others were saying.

Mine still jams up and goes a bit humpy when challenged in the school occasionally - I see this as her nappy behaviour appearing again, even if all I feel is a momentary hesitation and reluctance to be forward thinking - often other people won't notice it and I've sometimes come out of a dressage test and thought 'that was awful' because I detected the backwardness, but the judge has not made any negative remarks at all.

(we do occasionally hit the full on trotting backwards nap still... that is a little more noticeable but also easier to knock her out of it now, and there is never any lasting consequence! I don't think she'd bother if I didn't challenge her - she'd be happy poddling along at Novice forever, but she's gone up a few levels of training in the last 12 months so it's natural that she should question me from time to time :lol

 

[scats]

I think there's a difference between being able to stop the horse moving its feet (or preventing it from stopping, depending on the type of nap ) and being able to totally reform the horse's character traits so that it never considers saying 'no' ever again though?
That's kind of what I and (I think) DabDab amongst others were saying.

Actually, I agree with this. Of those two I have talked about, I know they won't do it with me ever again, but if they felt a weakness in another rider, they may well try it again.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

My horse believes he's a pogo stick when out hacking sometimes, and he's 17 so there's no excuse

The only way I've found of defusing it is to not really react to him, just giving voice commands asking him to walk, then praising him when he does. He's not strong so isn't actually going anywhere, just bouncing up and down alongside a calmly walking horse who has no idea what the idiot's doing, but trying to make him stop bouncing makes him hysterical. When he gets like that he can kick out so I try to head it off before that becomes an issue.

The other thing that works if it's only when you're heading back is to go past the yard - go for a hack and instead of back onto the yard going straight past and do another loop if possible. The old 'going in the direction of home doesn't mean we're going home' thing.

I've tried ignoring and she just bounces for the entire ride , though she's not done many long rides yet maybe if we hacked for longer she's give it up...
Again as our hacking is rubbish not really much of an option to keep looping back to the yard, but maybe this can be combined with a longer hack too and repeat a route?

I'm pretty good with nappers. I've cured several to the point that they no longer even try and I wouldn't consider them at all nappy anymore. Of the recents, one was a nap-rear type, who's answer to any form of force was to go vertical and then spin. The other was my current mare who would just twist her neck and bulldoze me to where she wanted to go. I sorted the bulldozer in two sessions and the other in about a month.

It's very difficult without seeing the horse, but the first thing I do is become aware of the clues. They always have some sort of clue that they are going to do it, but often it's so subtle that the rider doesn't pick up on it. It could be a minimal ear flick, a slight tension in the back or neck, a very small raising of the head... even an exhale of breath. Second thing to remember is to always ride the shoulder, if you have control of the shoulder, you largely have control of the horse. Leaving a shoulder open is like opening the door and inviting them through it.
You need to be one step ahead of them for the first few weeks, as they will try it again at some point, usually when you are off your guard.

Rushing wise, have you started some lateral work? Making them think about their feet is always useful. Slow rising, lots of figures, try not to hack the same routes etc.

Lovely looking horse!

Great reply, will discuss napping below .

The rushing in the school is solved by lateral work (leg-yield, baby shoulder fore) and riding lots of figures and transitions but this has drawn a blank out hacking, with her getting more het up about it.

I think there's a difference between being able to stop the horse moving its feet (or preventing it from stopping, depending on the type of nap ) and being able to totally reform the horse's character traits so that it never considers saying 'no' ever again though?
That's kind of what I and (I think) DabDab amongst others were saying.

Mine still jams up and goes a bit humpy when challenged in the school occasionally - I see this as her nappy behaviour appearing again, even if all I feel is a momentary hesitation and reluctance to be forward thinking - often other people won't notice it and I've sometimes come out of a dressage test and thought 'that was awful' because I detected the backwardness, but the judge has not made any negative remarks at all.

(we do occasionally hit the full on trotting backwards nap still... that is a little more noticeable but also easier to knock her out of it now, and there is never any lasting consequence! I don't think she'd bother if I didn't challenge her - she'd be happy poddling along at Novice forever, but she's gone up a few levels of training in the last 12 months so it's natural that she should question me from time to time :lol

Actually, I agree with this. Of those two I have talked about, I know they won't do it with me ever again, but if they felt a weakness in another rider, they may well try it again.

The napping is improving a lot but my question was about totally 'curing' one, as I can stop the nap and send her on and the extent of the nap is decreasing so we are now not quite napping but just threatening to. But to me as she is only a baby she will feel uncertain far more than an established horse and so the napping is resurfacing quite frequently, albeit with less dramatics, so I was wondering if I was missing something but I'm now thinking it is normal and as we're improving then we're ok, I'm positive another rider could get quicker/better results but it's tough luck she's stuck with me .

I agree with another rider behaviors do tend to re-surface, Topaz will go back to her rodeo act to evade with other riders who unknowingly (or not in some cases ) provoke it by not giving her an out before the stress bubbles over.

Very interesting responses thank you all, it's a massive help to hear what others do!

 

[itroteverywhere]

Admittedly I haven't read all of this post but if it were me (although I'm certainly no expert!) I would crack on in trot pretty much as soon as you get into the school. Suddenly trotting round in circles will be less appealing if you're making her do it. Then walk is the reward when she gets tired.

Obviously trickier out hacking but I had one that jogged a lot and I resolved it by turning a circle each time he started to jog. You might look a bit odd but could be worth a try.

You'll be glad she's so forward thinking a few years from now once she's more established 😊

 

[HufflyPuffly]

The rushing isn't as much of an issue in the school and currently we're insisting on calm before trotting. She is a very fast learner and if every time she came in the school I sent her off in trot I think she would end up being quite rude about 'well we trot now' .

Tried circling out hacking, this was not much of a success, but yes I guess I'll enjoy the forward at some point :lol:.

 

[smja]

I've tried ignoring and she just bounces for the entire ride , though she's not done many long rides yet maybe if we hacked for longer she's give it up...

Maybe get a side job testing sports bras?

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Maybe get a side job testing sports bras?

:lol: sadly I am not well endowed in this area otherwise an excellent suggestion 😂