Damnation
Well-Known Member
A toothbrush.. good god..
Cut won't heal!
- Thread starter jnorman
- Start date
stencilface
High upon a hillside
Does you horse have no immune system? I'll be honest here, if my horse has a small nick or cut, they barely get a look! Generally they've scabbed by the time I see them, and if they've scabbed they get left. If they're bleeding they get a wash, and might get something on them (dermagel, fly cream depending on the day) but if it looks ok it gets left to do its thing. I don't use sterile pads to clean my cuts after all, and humans are positively disgusting!
_GG_
Well-Known Member
We'll yes...I'd never consider anything more than gauze to help shift a persistent bit of dirt...syringes are definitely the best way to go. Then again, if I need to go there, I'm doing it with a vet anyway. For me...if a wound needs that much cleaning, I want it looked at by qualified eyes and AB's given. I just don't and never will understand people who support guesswork with horses, let alone those who promote and advise what could be truly awful treatment options.
Manuka Honey (med grade only) can be brilliant, but used for too long or at the wrong time can make things worse for the horse, not better.
OP...Google proud flesh or scraping away proud flesh...don't risk putting your horse in that position...or any other compromised positions by using trial and error. We have a legal duty to provide veterinary care for our animals and a wound not healing does fall under that.
Auslander
Well-Known Member
Wise words from days gone by.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Wise words from days gone by.
I love this. Everyone is looking for the next miracle cure. ***Spoiler alert*** it's called skin!
Illusion100
Well-Known Member
OP, sorry to hear that this wound isn't healing up (speaking from my own current wound drama lol!), so perhaps looking for the underlying cause is the next step forward, which would involve at least chatting to your Vet about it.
I keep a few bottles of homemade saline in my first aid kit and they are first thing to be used on wounds to clean them. Although, I'll admit after working with vets it's not often I get excited about a wound and often just leave them alone (provided the horse is otherwise fit and healthy) as fiddling with them too much can make things worse.
I do think that if we are going to DIY minor wounds on own animals, it is worth using high quality products that are as sterile as possible, otherwise you are just risking introducing contaminants and potentially delaying/stressing the healing process. I'm not overly fond of Hibiscrub for wound cleaning unless it is done correctly as it can be quite damaging otherwise and I do like to use natural based products where appropriate.
The toothbrush idea has given me that awful sensation of hair growing on my teeth! If dirt isn't going to come out of a wound via flushing or applying a short term dressing then it's really only humane a Vet does it using some local anaesthetic, ouch otherwise and as said, it will damage and inflamme the tissue.
One story involving the owner using honey was quite a shocker. Poor horse had had a puncture wound to it's knee (which should have meant a same day vet call out at least) but it was left for a few days minimum. They then noticed it had started to swell significantly and were coldhosing it once a day then covering it in honey because the knee 'smelled infected'. They weren't wrong about that tbf but sadly the joint was so badly infected and the window of opportunity to treat was past, the only choice was to put her down. Poor mare was in agony.
I keep a few bottles of homemade saline in my first aid kit and they are first thing to be used on wounds to clean them. Although, I'll admit after working with vets it's not often I get excited about a wound and often just leave them alone (provided the horse is otherwise fit and healthy) as fiddling with them too much can make things worse.
I do think that if we are going to DIY minor wounds on own animals, it is worth using high quality products that are as sterile as possible, otherwise you are just risking introducing contaminants and potentially delaying/stressing the healing process. I'm not overly fond of Hibiscrub for wound cleaning unless it is done correctly as it can be quite damaging otherwise and I do like to use natural based products where appropriate.
The toothbrush idea has given me that awful sensation of hair growing on my teeth! If dirt isn't going to come out of a wound via flushing or applying a short term dressing then it's really only humane a Vet does it using some local anaesthetic, ouch otherwise and as said, it will damage and inflamme the tissue.
One story involving the owner using honey was quite a shocker. Poor horse had had a puncture wound to it's knee (which should have meant a same day vet call out at least) but it was left for a few days minimum. They then noticed it had started to swell significantly and were coldhosing it once a day then covering it in honey because the knee 'smelled infected'. They weren't wrong about that tbf but sadly the joint was so badly infected and the window of opportunity to treat was past, the only choice was to put her down. Poor mare was in agony.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
I'd have reported the owner of that horse. I may not get many fans for saying it, but that is a perfect example of neglect. When most people think of neglect, they picture horses left starving in poor conditions. Neglect is also the failure to properly care for an animal or person. Condoning home treatment of a wound that is not healing is condoning neglect because, as horrible as it must be to hear, that is the hard truth of the matter. We all learn by experience and I'm sure the OP will learn some lessons here, to be honest, we should all be open to still learning what's best.
I'd rather upset a person but know that a horse is going to get proper care than worry about offending someone and leaving a horse to be a guinea pig for trying home remedies advised by strangers on an internet forum!
Doormouse
Well-Known Member
Water from a tap is not as sterile as you would think. In the future I would wash a cut with warm water and hibiscrub to eliminate any dirt or possible infection and use a dry dressing to cover for a few days to keep clean.
I would ring the vet again and probably get some more antibiotics. Once he has started on the antibiotics, keep the wound covered for a few days until a scab is beginning to form. Sudocrem is healing and can protect a wound from dirt but there are better healing creams on the market.
I would ring the vet again and probably get some more antibiotics. Once he has started on the antibiotics, keep the wound covered for a few days until a scab is beginning to form. Sudocrem is healing and can protect a wound from dirt but there are better healing creams on the market.
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
When my young horse put a leg through a wire fence he cut his leg just below the knee. The paddock had no stand pipe for a hose so I made a saline solution in a 4litre pump spray.
The spray worked really well to flush out the wound.
The spray worked really well to flush out the wound.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
To be honest I would call it ignorance, meaning "lacking knowledge or awareness" and not ignorance in the meaning "rude or bad mannered".
Agreed that people should know all about horses before embarking on the ownership of one, but as you are aware the subject is vast and owners cannot be assumed to know everything there is to know, I am sure they thought they were doing the correct thing. I wouldn't call it neglect.
An example (both of which I have experience with, not personally);
Example A - a horse with a huge apron of skin hanging down from its chest to below its knees exposing the muscles following a freak accident in the field.
Example B - a small puncture wound over a joint barely visible to the human eye.
I know many horsey people who think that the worse scenario was example A and the horse would have to be PTS immediately, whereas B would carry more risk due to possible foreign body deep within the tissue or joint and obviously due to the risk of bacteria and resulting infection.
I remember at the yard I was at many years ago a mare took fright after getting her head stuck under a rope fixed to wooden posts concreted into the ground. She bolted carrying the posts with her, broke two fences one of which was an old wooden five bar gate and ended up 1/4 mile way down the field with this huge gaping wound. Everyone thought she would have to be shot on the spot. As it was staples, box rest and riding very shortly afterwards worked very well and the mare went on to compete and all sorts with hardly any scarring.
Its easy to be judgemental on folks but maybe its not fair to judge when you don't know what the circumstances were and how obvious the signs were that the mare was in pain.
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_GG_
Well-Known Member
Agreed to a degree, but it's irrelevant. Ignorance is not a valid argument if you are over 16 or 18, can't remember the age.
In my first post on this thread, I pointed out that I wasn't having a dig at the OP...we all have to learn. Preferably not on a live horse, but we do all have to learn.
My issue is with people posting who frankly should know better. It's all well and good having confidence in your own knowledge, but to advise others, people you don't know, who don't seem as experienced to do the same as you is just mindlessly stupid. The definition of neglect is failure to provide care, end of. Haphazardly trying out suggestions from an Internet forum is not care...it's potentially harmful.
We surely all just want this horse to heal as quickly as possible. Guesswork won't make that happen. Veterinary attention will.
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ester
Not slacking multitasking
Quite, ignorance is no defence in life or in the eyes of the law even more so in the days of the internet.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
Agree with this, and in doubt I would always speak to my vet. Funnily enough I had this conversation with my friend on the yard recently about this very subject. I am being steered in one direction by forum advice and yet this is contrary to what my vet is saying.
Most people post what they have experienced, and I always try to do this. I remember wishing I had advice from people I could talk to when I suspected my lovely horse had wobblers syndrome. It was one of the most traumatic periods of my life and I felt so helpless with no one to talk to and my vets going down an avenue that they shouldn't have gone down on a incorrect diagnosis which caused immeasurable suffering to my horse and resulted in him being PTS. I have never forgotten that feeling and to be quite honest never will, even 12 years later it is fresh in my mind as a daisy and I remember every conversation and everything that passed as if it were yesterday and I still feel the hurt and the let down and dissapointment.
So this is why I like to come on this forum, to help people through the experiences I have had, which is what most people endeavor to do although there are some who are the exception to the rule and just use the forum for their own ends (don't mean you GG)!! Just thought I'd better add a disclaimer.
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ycbm
Overwhelmed
Yes, vet required!
The wound also sounds dangerously close to a lateral cartilage and if it creates a quittor by infecting it, this horse could be heading for an incinerator very soon.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
I am sorry Ester, but you really do come across as a little, shall we say 'hard' so as not to sound rude. Everyone makes mistakes in life, please don't say you have never made a genuine mistake with your horse??? I am sure there is something that you will have done that others won't have agree with or would have done differently.
No one is perfect. Give people a break and try and find a little understanding, generosity and forgiveness.
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ester
Not slacking multitasking
I think whether forum advice is taken/listened to does rather depend on the severity of the situation and the likely outcomes or taking it/not taking it. There are certain things you can mess around with/take a chance on more than others.
Ignorance is no defence in law that is fact not just my opinion and if you don't know or aren't sure you engage a professional to help you. I certainly haven't made any mistakes that have risked my horses life, health or soundness.
Ignorance is no defence in law that is fact not just my opinion and if you don't know or aren't sure you engage a professional to help you. I certainly haven't made any mistakes that have risked my horses life, health or soundness.
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Dave's Mam
Well-Known Member
All it takes is a phone call.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Sharing ideas, experience and knowledge are key! Forums are great for that, I'm happy to share my own experience. What frustrates me is that some people will share their experience as fact. Usually in the belief that because something has worked fine for them, that it will work fine for others as well, but that's just not always going to be the case and it's not us who suffer for it, it's our horses.
Not all vets are made equal either. We have a horse here who was written off for recurring lameness. He's lucky he has an owner who, despite spending more on him than some pay for a house...is happy to let him retire at a young age and just be a horse. Vet has said he's doing so well that he may actually be sound to hack and do low level work again one day. He never thought he'd utter those words about this horse, but he's a good enough vet to know that they can all get things wrong sometimes. Forums can also be a great place for people to learn how to question vets or other professionals, but it should never stop us turning to them.
Not all vets are made equal either. We have a horse here who was written off for recurring lameness. He's lucky he has an owner who, despite spending more on him than some pay for a house...is happy to let him retire at a young age and just be a horse. Vet has said he's doing so well that he may actually be sound to hack and do low level work again one day. He never thought he'd utter those words about this horse, but he's a good enough vet to know that they can all get things wrong sometimes. Forums can also be a great place for people to learn how to question vets or other professionals, but it should never stop us turning to them.
Illusion100
Well-Known Member
The amount of unintentional cases of the kind of neglect you refer to is so common it's frightening. There is always at least one yard 'expert' whom has apparently bred the Popes donkey, trained Mark Todd or has owned horses for 274 yrs and therefore their word can be taken as gospel, from using honey for infection, vaseline to work out imbedded straw from behing the eyeball, to peppermint tea and performing their own rectal exams for colic. Then there is the 'too many cooks will spoil the broth' scenario where practically everyone on the yard has poked grubby fingers into and around the wound, advised contradictory advice from the last person and the owner picks and chooses a new thing to try a couple of times a day, disaster. Honestly, at times if we could've have laughed we'd have cried.
IRL, if asked my opinion on such a matter, I always respond 'Well if it were my horse, I would *advise initial first aid etc situation depending* and end with 'however with all things like this it is best to at least speak to your Vet asap about it and get their opinion' and if I'm not sure it's always 'I think you should call your Vet'. I don't mind offering an opinion but only where appropriate as I want to sleep easy that night and not wake up to find that my advice has caused complications and/or suffering to any animal.
I understand your opinion re: reporting neglect in the previous case I described but sadly this would (well, has) deter people further from seeking Vet advise/assistance for fear of prosecution. Ultimately it is always best to encourage Vet involvement regardless of previous home treatments etc for the benefit of the animal, even if that results in euthansia rather than further suffering. It is hard not to be angry about ignorance/neglect but believe me, these people usually learn a very big lesson, very quickly, especially when at the end of the visit their horse is a corpse.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
After watching my horse have three separate rectal examinations in four days a couple of weeks ago for splenic entrapment I cannot say that I would fancy that one! The only surprise was how well my horse dealt with having an injection in his neck, a tube down his nose, a hand shoved up his a**e and taken for a 'bumpy' trailer ride all in the space of one hour repeated over the course of three days! I wonder horses really think of us - they must think we exhibit very bizarre behaviour
Of course you get all sorts of advice (unwanted or not as the case may be) by yard people but all meant with good intentions. Sometimes its a case of separating the wheat from the chaff.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
I don't follow that last bit? I may be missing something but prosecution would only come for not getting vet attention. I don't understand why people would fear prosecution for seeking vet advice/care? If you mean, people would be afraid to call the vet after trying and failing to home treat, then I get it and it's tricky one for sure. Definitely wouldn't want to discourage people from turning to their vets at any time...but at the same time, we shouldn't let it go that a horse has suffered either?
Yep, it's a tricky one, I see your point and am scratching my head! Not much is black and white is it?
I see Ester has been targeted for something a few people have said...not sure why she's been singled out, but I'll reiterate, there should always be a level of understanding, but ignorance is no excuse.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
After watching my horse have three separate rectal examinations in four days a couple of weeks ago for splenic entrapment I cannot say that I would fancy that one! The only surprise was how well my horse dealt with having an injection in his neck, a tube down his nose, a hand shoved up his a**e and taken for a 'bumpy' trailer ride all in the space of one hour repeated over the course of three days! I wonder horses really think of us - they must think we exhibit very bizarre behaviour
Of course you get all sorts of advice (unwanted or not as the case may be) by yard people but all meant with good intentions. Sometimes its a case of separating the wheat from the chaff.
My rule of thumb is...if someone starts by saying things like, "check with your vet first", "I'm not sure but...", "I'm not qualified and you should check with someone who is but" usually are knowledgeable and trustworthy because they can admit they may not actually KNOW for certain. Anyone who says things like, "Yeah, it worked wonders on my horse, save yourself the call out charge", "I know what it is/what to do", "Ignore (insert qualified persons name) advice, I've been doing this for years" etc...should be wholly ignored in favour of those who are actually qualified to diagnose and help.
Every yard has one, it won't change, we all learn sooner or later who to trust and who to ignore.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
My rule of thumb is...if someone starts by saying things like, "check with your vet first", "I'm not sure but...", "I'm not qualified and you should check with someone who is but" usually are knowledgeable and trustworthy because they can admit they may not actually KNOW for certain. Anyone who says things like, "Yeah, it worked wonders on my horse, save yourself the call out charge", "I know what it is/what to do", "Ignore (insert qualified persons name) advice, I've been doing this for years" etc...should be wholly ignored in favour of those who are actually qualified to diagnose and help.
Every yard has one, it won't change, we all learn sooner or later who to trust and who to ignore.
Gosh I am not disagreeing at all with you _GG_ but I wouldn't think about all that in that detail.... I would just say "I did XY and Z and it worked for me". Not "I did XY and Z and it worked for me but I am not a qualified person".
By the time I get to the yard after a busy day I am wiped out anyway without having to work out how to rephrase every sentence so it sounds 'correct' or to add a disclaimer to it. I guess I get straight to the point without going 'around the houses'. Bit lazy in structuring sentences but certainly never claimed to be something I am not (although I would probably be rich if I were a vet the amount I've given mine over the last 12 years)
If my horse has a problem (where he is not on his back with legs in air/standing on three legs) I like to step back, watch my horse, assess the situation, watch his symptoms, take notes for the vet and then ascertain whether I actually need the vet in a calm manner. It could take seconds to reach a conclusion, or it could take longer depending on what the problem is. Although I am conscious of vet=cost I also know that I have a responsibility to the animal and that takes precedence. I assume that this is what most people with a brain do.
I also assume that some people come on this forum hoping to avoid vets bills. If this is for minor things then they are justified I guess. I wouldn't think it was right if someone said "I've just spent an hour bringing my horse in from the field, as he is on three legs but I thought I'd come on here and ask what you think I should do before/if I call the vet out".
This is an interesting discussion.
_GG_
Well-Known Member
Gosh I am not disagreeing at all with you _GG_ but I wouldn't think about all that in that detail.... I would just say "I did XY and Z and it worked for me". Not "I did XY and Z and it worked for me but I am not a qualified person".
By the time I get to the yard after a busy day I am wiped out anyway without having to work out how to rephrase every sentence so it sounds 'correct' or to add a disclaimer to it. I guess I get straight to the point without going 'around the houses'. Bit lazy in structuring sentences but certainly never claimed to be something I am not (although I would probably be rich if I were a vet the amount I've given mine over the last 12 years)
If my horse has a problem (where he is not on his back with legs in air/standing on three legs) I like to step back, watch my horse, assess the situation, watch his symptoms, take notes for the vet and then ascertain whether I actually need the vet in a calm manner. It could take seconds to reach a conclusion, or it could take longer depending on what the problem is. Although I am conscious of vet=cost I also know that I have a responsibility to the animal and that takes precedence. I assume that this is what most people with a brain do.
I also assume that some people come on this forum hoping to avoid vets bills. If this is for minor things then they are justified I guess. I wouldn't think it was right if someone said "I've just spent an hour bringing my horse in from the field, as he is on three legs but I thought I'd come on here and ask what you think I should do before/if I call the vet out".
This is an interesting discussion.
Yeah it is. It's not that much work though. We all know them. Put simply, those who give advice as fact and won't hear other opinions should be ignored...those who can admit they don't know it all can largely be trusted.
Illusion100
Well-Known Member
Oh, are we picking on Ester?! Yeah well Ester, she always picks on my piccy taking skills, she's such a biaaatch! There is no excuse for her ignorance, why can't she just accept that I'm cr@p at it?!
Here's a good one, a VERY novice owner that doesn't even know the symptoms of colic, for example, is the President of a local riding club and is therefore looked up to for advice. The mind boggles.
Anyway, back to what you were saying! I think we have many scenarios so I'll express a few examples, novices that don't understand symptoms/injuries at all and dont recognise they could/are an issue, novices that trust the advice of people who don't know what they're talking about, experienced owners knowing they have a problem and insist on home tx/not involving vet until there is no hope and horse then disposed of by hunt no questions asked and my least fave, people who've tried home tx, failed miserably, got vet out, then continued to ignore vet advice or decide to put it down themselves.
I suppose my point is that genuine but ignorant owners that make mistakes are very different than those that know better and do it anyway. If it is any consolation the ones that knowingly cause suffering/neglect (certainly in any scenario I've been involved with) have had their horses seized permenantly sooner or later. As for prosecution, that wasn't so much up to the vet but the rescue so we never really got to know what happened after the horse/pony was PTS or treated and travelled to rescue.
All I know is that if there is a fool proof solution to everything scenario that anyone can fix at home, then why do Vets even exist?!
Illusion100
Well-Known Member
After watching my horse have three separate rectal examinations in four days a couple of weeks ago for splenic entrapment I cannot say that I would fancy that one! The only surprise was how well my horse dealt with having an injection in his neck, a tube down his nose, a hand shoved up his a**e and taken for a 'bumpy' trailer ride all in the space of one hour repeated over the course of three days! I wonder horses really think of us - they must think we exhibit very bizarre behaviour
Of course you get all sorts of advice (unwanted or not as the case may be) by yard people but all meant with good intentions. Sometimes its a case of separating the wheat from the chaff.
He sounds like a super patient and one that is always very pleasant to have to work with under those conditions!
It is suprising how well the vast majority cope with such invasive treatment. Put us humans to shame really. Fine, they put me to shame at least!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
well I presumed you were only here because of your current experience of non-healing limbs
and don't whinge, you should see the instructions/complaints I make on hoof pic threads
and don't whinge, you should see the instructions/complaints I make on hoof pic threads
Wagtail
Horse servant
If a wound is small and scabbed over, I leave it (unless it's over a joint). If it isn't scabbed over I clean it and spray with anticeptic or squirted with wound powder. If they do not heal up then I get the vet, although depending on various factors (whether I think it's infected, where the wound is, size of the wound etc) I may poultice it. In the case of what the OP has described then I probably would have poulticed it.
Illusion100
Well-Known Member
well I presumed you were only here because of your current experience of non-healing limbs
Makes me the most qualified person on this topic, I reckon?!
Yeah, was actually hoping for some wondercure but alas, Docs it is *sigh* Although, after an interesting day on Sat, wonky finger is either finally starting to get better or metamorphosing. Sadly my odds are on the latter.....