Daily turnout a legal requirement

[DabDab]

I feel pity for the horses in UK. What horrible lives some of them must enendure.

Whereas in Sweden no horses are ever miserable?
I've never been to Sweden but I find that extremely unlikely.

 

[stangs]

And for those of you saying how you used to keep your horses stabled a lot vs how much happier they are with turnout...Well quite frankly why did you think that was acceptable in the first place?

Hope you’re not referring to me. I’ve only ever kept my boy on 24/7 turnout in company; it was his previous owners that kept him stabled. And if I had been able to provide more turnout for the horses at the yard I worked at, without the YM firing me on the spot, I would have.

 

[DabDab]

Hope you’re not referring to me. I’ve only ever kept my boy on 24/7 turnout in company; it was his previous owners that kept him stabled. And if I had been able to provide more turnout for the horses at the yard I worked at, without the YM firing me on the spot, I would have.

No not particularly, just the general sort of thing that gets posted on these threads tbh.
But then again, knowledge of a horse's management before you had control of them is fairly limited usually. I've certainly bought a few in a right state who came fresh from the field and have never seen a stable in their lives (one of my current horses fits this category). I then typically stable them for half a day. When their condition improves I don't tend to assume that it's the field that was the problem per say

 

[stangs]

But then again, knowledge of a horse's management before you had control of them is fairly limited usually. I've certainly bought a few in a right state who came fresh from the field and have never seen a stable in their lives (one of my current horses fits this category). I then typically stable them for half a day. When their condition improves I don't tend to assume that it's the field that was the problem per say

Agreed. My case is unusual because I had a long history with him and the old owners. But, beyond the turnout, I changed little to no aspects of his lifestyle for a while so I'm inclined to say that it was the turnout that improved his condition. And that happens a lot - people talk about treating horses with Mr Green and 'benign neglect' because it works.

 

[marmalade76]

Tbh I'm reading YCBMs posts only as saying that it is more nuanced a discussion than stable=bad and turnout=good. Which it is. I've personally seen probably as many horses miserable and sickly from their field environment as I have seen horses miserable and sickly from their stable environment. Good animal husbandry is generally pretty difficult to legislate for.

This is true. I have a friend who insists her horses cannot be stabled and are happier out. She has two old TBs, a younger ID and an old ID x that has Cushing's. She's had them out in fetlock deep mud which led to gammy feet and mud fever that swelled right up and still left them out! Truth is, she couldn't keep them in if she wanted to because she's in her 70s and has ME, she couldn't physically do it. She also puts their hay out in the mud because apparently the ME prevents her from carrying it to cleaner ground, this wastes hay and encourages them to stand in the mud all the more

I have kept mine out 24/7/365, but at the time I had access to plenty of ground, if a field got cut up and muddy or lacking in grass, I could move them to a fresh one. With my current yard I don't have enough well draining ground to keep them out all winter so they come in at night which gives their feet and legs a chance to dry out but I find they most appreciate coming in during the day in the summer, I think because it gives them a break from the flies and they seem to enjoy a nap on some soft bedding as opposed to hard ground. When they were at a yard with shelters, the only time they used them was when there were lots of flies about.

 

[DabDab]

Agreed. My case is unusual because I had a long history with him and the old owners. But, beyond the turnout, I changed little to no aspects of his lifestyle for a while so I'm inclined to say that it was the turnout that improved his condition. And that happens a lot - people talk about treating horses with Mr Green and 'benign neglect' because it works.

Well yes and no. There's an awful lot more to a good living environment than simply the fact of being turned out - equine company, social structure, dietary mix, sounds, sights, smells, the simulation of movement etc... And yes, if you get all those many factors right then a horse's physical and mental condition will often improve, and getting all those factors right is generally easier in a field environment. But equally, there are 'turnout' environments which offer very little on any of those fronts, I have certainly witnessed many.

Sometimes it might not even be clearly apparent to a human why a particular horse struggles in a particular environment. For example, a friend's horse some years ago took to fence walking continuously for the entire time she was turned out. She had company, decent sized field, grass to eat, but she just wore a tench by the fence and came in every day caked up to her stifles in mud. Eventually they moved her to a different yard half a mile up the road and suddenly the mare was completely content being out and the difference in her was extraordinary. Who knows what, but certainly there was something about the previous fields that profoundly upset what was a generally quiet, easy going mare.

It's why I say good animal husbandry is very difficult to legislate for, and generally I don't believe fixed, very reductive ideas/arguments about one particular aspect of horse management while ignoring all others is particularly helpful.

 

[Michen]

Sorry Elno but I don’t agree with what you are saying. My horse is now in Colorado in a typical dry lot turnout situation. Occasionally in deep snow they are kept in. He is very happy going out there every day, mooching around, having a buck and a fart and then going back in to the heated barn.

He is happy because for the most part he is dry and not stood in mud. In the UK he had 4 acres and even though the mud was only really around the gate he was very often miserable with the weather.

Keeping horses happy in the winter in some form of turnout in the uk is a whole different ball game to doing it in a snowy/drier environment.

 

[IrishMilo]

I think horses appreciate a safe, dry space to relax without feeling like they have to be on guard all the time. I've had a few who virtually drag me into their box. My preference is out all day (minimum 8 hours) and in at night, particularly in winter. I think there is a misconception that ALL horses love being out all the time in all weathers and it's not true from experience. My Connie used to stand at the gate whinnying and fence walking to come in if it was raining or very windy. On occasion he also ran through the fence to come in.

That being said I can't/WON'T do in all the time or a measly 2 or 3 hours a day. It's cruel, unhealthy and horses need fresh air in their lungs and sun on their backs. There are things I've done before that I would never tolerate now - postage stamp field size, individual TO and no TO.

 

[Goldenstar]

Small paddocks in postage stamps of land while better than nothing are not really the turnout that horses need .My horses live outside they come in part of every day because I need to use them and look after them .
My horses love coming in winter and summer they want to be in they like their stables .
Next week we swop to summer management from spring that means they are in all day between 10 to 14 hours .
They will come in work then they sleep comfy and cool out of the flies .
Last winter they where in one night the weather was awful and they had had enough .
However to do this I have fifteen acres plus between four horses not in any way possible on commercial Yard .

 

[Tiddlypom]

I have kept a horse on restricted individual turnout, and it worked very well and the horse was very happy for all the 3 years that he was at that yard. He was in medium varied work schooling/competing/lengthy hacks. Btw, this photo of him got into Horse and Hound magazine . Although his time out was restricted, the fields were excellent.



Turnout was individual and for 1 hour/day in winter and 1.5 hours/day summer. Very rarely was turnout stopped for waterlogging. Winter turnout of any sort was quite rare on the Wirral then.

I know that people will insist that this is cruel, but some horses are perfectly happy on this. Good quality turnout for at least an hour a day for a buck and a fart is the absolute minimum, though. Horses should also be in a decent level of work for it to be suitable.

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses on restricted turnout must be worked horses turnout in small paddocks must be worked, movement is non negotiable for horses welfare unless the horse is sick or injured .

 

[Michen]

Horses on restricted turnout must be worked horses turnout in small paddocks must be worked, movement is non negotiable for horses welfare unless the horse is sick or injured .

I agree with this and I think that’s where the issues start. In winter I’d usually ride Boggle a few times a week. Now he gets worked almost every day, maybe a day off every ten days but even then he’s usually hand walked.

If you are going to turn them out in a small area particularly one where they have no motivation to move (ie a dry lot or grass less field) you have to commit to moving them yourself.

 

[GinaGeo]

I don’t think we can argue that keeping horses in standard stables, with their only movement being an hour on the horse walker is ever right. And unfortunately that is the reality on a lot of UK yards. I certainly know of many horses, who live that reality.

Conversely, horses on the same yards that do go out in winter are stood about in knee deep mud, with nothing to eat for hours looking utterly miserable.

Neither option is great and the UK weather is making it harder than ever.

If yards haven’t got enough land, or the right soil type to allow some turnout in fields all year then the only answer is really all weather turnout. It’s still a compromise, and often requires much more human input as horses still need exercising, unless it can be made big enough for them to move at will.

Our land is in an area of heavy clay, which makes the fields an unusable mud pit in the winter - they‘ve only become usable in the last couple of weeks. Our options were:

1. Turnout in knee deep mud pits. Have miserable horses, with mud related issues. In our first winter here we had cellulitis and abscesses from the mud. And a huge bill come spring to make the fields usable again.

2. Keep horses in stables for nearly all of winter.

3. Find an alternative compromise.

We went with option 3. It started off with an electric fenced off bit of the driveway outside the stables, with the stable doors open during the day. At night they were stabled. It was labour intensive and the horses were worked daily to get enough movement into them. It was a compromise, but better than the other two options.

Over the last 15 years, we‘ve tweaked and expanded the all weather area. And they now have a surfaced track around 1/2 acre. They have different surfaces, shelter, they have to move to get water and food. There isn’t mud. And they live on it for about 7 months when we can’t use the paddocks. It‘s made up of the original yard and stables (now properly fenced) and two other small yard areas that already existed, where we put hay, that have been joined together by access tracks. The horses still choose to use the stables to sleep in. And do bring themselves in when the weather is bad or come in from the fields away from the flies in summer.

We don’t have an arena or a horse walker.

There are often areas on yards that already exist, but aren’t thought of as “turnout” that could be utilised in the worst weather when fields aren’t usable. Surfaced tracks to fields. Hard cored car parks. Arenas. Driveways. Unused barns. Yards.

Many of the yards I know of where horses are in for prolonged periods, all have suitable areas where they could make temporary all weather turnout pens with minimal additional outlay if they had to. You just have to be a bit more imaginative than turnout = field.

 

[Upthecreek]

Not all turnout is equal and there is no one size fits all. However it’s difficult to argue that *most* horses wouldn’t prefer turnout in optimum conditions (shelter from the elements, well draining soil, not overstocked) to being stabled for long periods of time. They may become conditioned to accept being stabled for long periods of time and because they aren’t showing any negative behaviour we choose to take it that they are content, but acceptance of a situation you have no control over and contentment are not the same.

Horses that fence walk and stand by the gate looking miserable wanting to come in probably don’t have optimum turnout conditions and due to this they become conditioned to prefer being stabled. Most know they will be coming in to a feed and hay.

I would not go as far as to say that people should not own horses if they cannot provide suitable year round turnout, but I personally would not. I struggle a lot these days with what we expect of horses and keeping them confined to a stable for prolonged periods of time is not something I am prepared to subject horses to because I want to own them. I don’t think you can substitute ridden exercise for turnout. Yes the horse is moving, but it’s not comparable to having free time to act like a horse in the field and this is not something I feel comfortable expecting horses to go without.

 

[paddy555]

I don’t think we can argue that keeping horses in standard stables, with their only movement being an hour on the horse walker is ever right. And unfortunately that is the reality on a lot of UK yards. I certainly know of many horses, who live that reality.

Conversely, horses on the same yards that do go out in winter are stood about in knee deep mud, with nothing to eat for hours looking utterly miserable.

Neither option is great and the UK weather is making it harder than ever.

If yards haven’t got enough land, or the right soil type to allow some turnout in fields all year then the only answer is really all weather turnout. It’s still a compromise, and often requires much more human input as horses still need exercising, unless it can be made big enough for them to move at will.

Our land is in an area of heavy clay, which makes the fields an unusable mud pit in the winter - they‘ve only become usable in the last couple of weeks. Our options were:

1. Turnout in knee deep mud pits. Have miserable horses, with mud related issues. In our first winter here we had cellulitis and abscesses from the mud. And a huge bill come spring to make the fields usable again.

2. Keep horses in stables for nearly all of winter.

3. Find an alternative compromise.

We went with option 3. It started off with an electric fenced off bit of the driveway outside the stables, with the stable doors open during the day. At night they were stabled. It was labour intensive and the horses were worked daily to get enough movement into them. It was a compromise, but better than the other two options.

Over the last 15 years, we‘ve tweaked and expanded the all weather area. And they now have a surfaced track around 1/2 acre. They have different surfaces, shelter, they have to move to get water and food. There isn’t mud. And they live on it for about 7 months when we can’t use the paddocks. It‘s made up of the original yard and stables (now properly fenced) and two other small yard areas that already existed, where we put hay, that have been joined together by access tracks. The horses still choose to use the stables to sleep in. And do bring themselves in when the weather is bad or come in from the fields away from the flies in summer.

We don’t have an arena or a horse walker.

There are often areas on yards that already exist, but aren’t thought of as “turnout” that could be utilised in the worst weather when fields aren’t usable. Surfaced tracks to fields. Hard cored car parks. Arenas. Driveways. Unused barns. Yards.

Many of the yards I know of where horses are in for prolonged periods, all have suitable areas where they could make temporary all weather turnout pens with minimal additional outlay if they had to. You just have to be a bit more imaginative than turnout = field.

this is so very similar to what we have done. We abandoned "stables" 25 years ago, opened the stable doors and now they are only closed if a horse is being fed/tacked up /groomed etc.

as you describe in your penultimate para. we have put every tiny bit of space to use for them. We don't have a lot of space and certainly didn't have a lot of money when we did this. We did however have a lot of imagination and total dislike of horses being restricted in stables.


We are luckier as we are not on clay but just have a pretty wet climate on lower lying fields. However we don't have too many problems in churning up fields because as the horses can wander at all times around their small yards then going out into the field is not any great excitement. It is not like taking a horse that has been stabled for 23 hours out who get to the gateway and charges off. Ours just wander off.

I used to think they liked being brought in on winter evenings. All stood at the field gate clamouring to come in and churning up the surface. They did like it, loved their stables and feed. They definitely didn't want to be turned back out into the field afterwards. However once we gave them the freedom of open doors we realised they didn't want to stay in their stables all night.
Many nights, in the pouring rain, we find them standing out in their yards where they obviously spend most of the night from their soaking rugs in the morning. However sometimes in the morning despite the rain their rugs are dry. They have spent all night in. No idea why some rain is different from other rain but they get the choice to experience the elements.
Often they are covered in shavings by the morning so they have been in for a snooze.

This sort of freedom, whilst not much in terms of a wild horse" roaming the range" seems to make them very happy, give them lots of choice and remove any of the stress I have often seen in horses stabled for long periods.

I don't see this small yard arrangement as an alternative to turnout. I see it as an alternative to stabling especially for long periods. I don't see ridden exercise or the walker as an alternative to turnout and many horses could not be ridden anyway ie the old, problem ones etc.

Summer will be here very shortly, their yards and stables will be open as will the field gates. I expect by 10am they will be in their stables where they will stay, doors will be open and they will pop out to the field for half an hour or so and then come back in. In the summer and fly heat their choice will be firmly inside the stables not in their yards.

There is an advantage to yarding and that is a lot cheaper bedding. Give a horse somewhere outside to have a pee and many will do so. In the mornings the yards are full of poo. I have stables where the shavings could last for months without getting mucky (thin shavings on mats).

I would not go as far as to say that people should not own horses if they cannot provide suitable year round turnout, but I personally would not. I struggle a lot these days with what we expect of horses and keeping them confined to a stable for prolonged periods of time is not something I am prepared to subject horses to because I want to own them. I don’t think you can substitute ridden exercise for turnout. Yes the horse is moving, but it’s not comparable to having free time to act like a horse in the field and this is not something I feel comfortable expecting horses to go without.

this.

 

[Kaylum]

I think it's a great idea. Yard owners who don't have turnout areas where horses can move about properly. This goes for those in summer and winter. A horse that needs to be off the grass shouldn't have to be stabled, winter paddocks muddy and wet. I do think yard owners are now seeing things very differently and know they need to change. We have 4 off grass areas. Each area has a field shelter and is bedded up. They can be fed and have haynets, move about and canter if they want. Nobody stands at the gate as they have shelter. One area has a massive barn that's left open that they go into whenever they like. We have stables as well if needs be.

 

[conniegirl]

I disagree that turning out a cribber stops them cribbing, every cribber I've known has cribbed when out in the field, even when they're out 24/7. Even my non-horsey OH knows this and won't allow me to have one 'cause he has to repair the fencing!

Me too. And weaving, i had a chronic weaver who would stand in the middle of a 4 acre field weaving.

 

[Maxidoodle]

We looked at moving the horses to Denmark about 10 years ago. Welfare laws state that horses must be turned out for an absolute minium of 2 hours a day, unless for medical reasons. There are also requirements for the size of stable, natural light and ventilation.
Husband toured a livery yard there and asked whether DIY was an option. The manager initially didn't seem to understand the question, but after the concept was explained further, she smiled and said, oh no, we want the horses to be properly looked after.
The Danish culture is that owners either keep horses at home or they are kept on full livery.

I’m afraid that just isn’t adhered to at so many yards. There are a lot of DIY yards in Denmark but there is a lot of land, so people have the option to keep their horses at home, poorly I’ll add in a lot of cases. I had mine on a very prestigious yard on arrival, on DIY (they put morning feeds in and turned out), I was horrified that they regularly forgot to feed mine, despite my Stables being closest to the feed area and they would rarely get out before 11am and expected to be back in by 3pm (this was summer!). They rarely turned their horses out (over 30 horses) as the owner would use the excuse that she had a busy day and didn’t have time to turn out or bring in.

Over here they muck out with machinery one a month, everyday they add more straw, by the end of the month the horses are having to clamber down off their beds to get through the doorway if they’re fortunate to get outside. I made the mistake of offering to help and ended up having 12 to turn out daily for them! Couldn’t wait to leave. I was complaining about it to a group of Danish horse owners at a training event a few months later, expecting them to be horrified, there were around 10 people there and not one of them could see an issue with the standard of care I explained. My “friend” here I’ve distanced from, as her standard of care is shocking in comparison to what we would think basic in the UK. Therws a lot of very neglected horses here, it makes me very cross.

 

[toppedoff]

reminds me of a stable tour on youtube - it was a gorgeous yard, top stud and sales of sports horses i think, massive, all things posh but horses would only go out for an hour as there was too much risk and it was only in paddocks big enough for a small canter. that video received alot of negative feedback, of course

 

[malwhit]

It is years ago that I rode in London and it was only Suzanne's Riding School in London that appeared to have any turnout. Some of the schools had arenas where the horses may have been turned out in, but the schools near Hyde Park didn't even have that.

Do the Royal/military stables have any turnout? I remember seeing a documentary where their horses were kept in stalls rather than loose boxes, so had even less space.

 

[stangs]

It is years ago that I rode in London and it was only Suzanne's Riding School in London that appeared to have any turnout. Some of the schools had arenas where the horses may have been turned out in, but the schools near Hyde Park didn't even have that.

Do the Royal/military stables have any turnout? I remember seeing a documentary where their horses were kept in stalls rather than loose boxes, so had even less space.

The two Hyde Park RS rotate horses in and out of Central London, but when they're in, they have nothing. They've crammed lots of horses into a tiny space, several in stalls and stables that they can barely turn around in. They're the only London RS yards I can think of where the horses have no turnout - most use their arenas, and a few have all-weather turnout spaces (Ebony, Docklands).

The military horses get sent to the Defence Animal Training Centre for an annual holiday. I was told once that they're driven out of London weekly for a day of turnout as well but not sure how true that is. I'd presume the Royal horses get turned out in Hampton Court occasionally but I doubt it's a common occurrence.

 

[Goldenstar]

On arenas as turn out I did this when the weather was awfully wet for the horses that where worked .
I did it until I got a new horse he dug up the area tore through the membranes and made a godawful mess .

 

[SEL]

The two Hyde Park RS rotate horses in and out of Central London, but when they're in, they have nothing. They've crammed lots of horses into a tiny space, several in stalls and stables that they can barely turn around in. They're the only London RS yards I can think of where the horses have no turnout - most use their arenas, and a few have all-weather turnout spaces (Ebony, Docklands).

The military horses get sent to the Defence Animal Training Centre for an annual holiday. I was told once that they're driven out of London weekly for a day of turnout as well but not sure how true that is. I'd presume the Royal horses get turned out in Hampton Court occasionally but I doubt it's a common occurrence.

I got given a Hyde park ride as a gift some years ago and I was horrified at how tight the stables were. The military horses get some in summer apparently but not in winter - a local lady had one of their rejects who couldn't cope with being stabled all the time.

 

[toppedoff]

do you think we could see turnout regulations be a thing here? or perhaps new yards seeking building permission would need a suitable amount of turnout? even so, how is it regulated?

 

[Upthecreek]

On arenas as turn out I did this when the weather was awfully wet for the horses that where worked .
I did it until I got a new horse he dug up the area tore through the membranes and made a godawful mess .

Whilst arena turnout is better than no turnout it’s far from ideal and I feel should only be used temporarily. It should not be the norm for people to think that no turnout for months on end is acceptable or that suitable turnout is an hour in an arena or postage stamp size paddock because at least they are getting some turnout. If regular suitable turnout cannot be provided people should really be thinking carefully about whether it’s fair to own a horse in their situation. Far too many yards decide on the number of horses they can accommodate based on the number of stables rather than the size/type of turnout they can offer.

 

[wickedwilfred]

Of course, not everyone has the luxury of paddocks and you could argue that if this is the case, you shouldn’t be owning a horse. Personally, I hate to keep my horses in the stable any longer than necessary as I think they need space and are are happier and healthier if they can be turned out as much as possible.

 

[Caol Ila]

There used to be a riding school, called Claremont, on West 89th St. and Amsterdam Ave, on the Upper West Side of NYC. It was in an old tenement building. The indoor arena, at the bottom, had huge columns in the middle. The horses went up and down ramps to get from their stables to the ground floor, and they often did it unsupervised. The grooms would get them tacked up and send them on their way, then they'd appear at the entrance to the indoor. I hired one out once and rode the two long blocks from there to Central Park. Then you could have a proper canter around the gallop tracks in the park, after navigating Upper West Side traffic, of course. The horses were cool. So bombproof. Obviously they got zero turnout and lived in the middle of bloody Manhattan, and you could make an argument that their welfare would have been better if they were not living on West 89th and Amsterdam. But they were still cool. They're gone now -- developers bought out the building, because Manhattan.

 

[Widgeon]

I live in Sweden and have a horse

Since joining this forum I've been often kind of amazed (and not in a good way) of some of the things you do in the UK.

Like for instance, what the actual F*** is a "Duvet day"?

I've only just caught up with this thread but this comment made me laugh so much - as a UK dweller I totally agree with you, the idea that horses understand or desire a "duvet day" is baffling to me! Mine is out 24/7 though so I guess his equivalent of a "duvet day" would be a second rug on top of the usual one to keep the horizontal rain out....

 

[Smogul]

Small paddocks in postage stamps of land while better than nothing are not really the turnout that horses need .My horses live outside they come in part of every day because I need to use them and look after them .
My horses love coming in winter and summer they want to be in they like their stables .
Next week we swop to summer management from spring that means they are in all day between 10 to 14 hours .
They will come in work then they sleep comfy and cool out of the flies .
Last winter they where in one night the weather was awful and they had had enough .
However to do this I have fifteen acres plus between four horses not in any way possible on commercial Yard .

Totally agree. In our area you would need 5-6 acres per horse to have any chance of all year round turnout. 25 horses in yard - do the arithmetic. People need to be realistic. Unless horse owners are able and willing to pay the sort of prices that a commercial yard would need to charge if they had access to that amount of land, it can't be done.

 

[Widgeon]

It's why I say good animal husbandry is very difficult to legislate for, and generally I don't believe fixed, very reductive ideas/arguments about one particular aspect of horse management while ignoring all others is particularly helpful.

Agreed. There are so many different factors to deal with - exactly as @Michen says.