Dallas Van Overis

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actually just had to have a nose @ the stud fee jesus its not a lot £350 euros whats that in british pounds? £260?? roughly with LFG how bads that i think for the breeder who wants a foal with good lines how can you go wrong surely ? this isnt dear

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Exactly, and for a horse that has done everything right so far, with good bloodlines, what more do you want for that price.
 
Yes... and you could say that about any promising young stallion... Though of course the real expense of breeding isn't the stud fee but keeping the mare, feeding the foal and using up a year of your mare's breeding life. Get it wrong & a couple of hundred quid could look very expensive.....
 
but show me where you can find a promising young stallion for £350 euro LFG i think you would have a long search? if you are into breeding then im afraid you can expect the whole thing to be expensive its not for the faint hearted!! if you are breeding then feeding foal,keeping the mare etc ect just comes part of the parcel... dont think you can go far wrong with these lines and for this price im sure a donkeys stud fee is higher i think value for money but every 1 to there own i guess
 
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dont think you can go far wrong with these lines

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Wish that were true- but TBH I think the individual is as important as his pedigree. Think of all those sons of Saddlers Wells out there who didn't win a race...

LOL ! On second thoughts I'm glad its NOT true. If there really was such a thing as a certainty I wouldn't be able to afford it.

All in all I think he's not for me.. but do you think you will send something to him?
 
i wouldnt simply because most of my mares are quite heavy i dont think that would be a good combination he look like hes took his sires stamp would suit lighter mares of which im short of. Im a real fan of Darco horses i dont know of any that dont have a pop and am a fan of Concorde too hes been a great producer of showjumpers.
 
With the 3 stallion lineup of Darco x Concorde x Calando I, (all three were Olympians) you’re already heading in the right direction. When you add in that DVO’s mother is the sister of Lord Z (Olympian), and that her sister is the mother of VDL Atlantic and In style (’08 Olympian with Ian Millar), and that Grandma Thia was the dam of two fully approved Holsteiner stallions, you have to say that on paper DVO works. This motherline is Holsteiner stamm 206, for those who wish to research, and has been developed by Van de Ootelaar and Jan Steven in recent years.

Ken’s view is pretty simple; if DVO doesn’t make the Fontainbleau finals every year, his balls come off. Simple. How many stallion owners in this world are that realistic? DVO is licenced with the AES, but once/if he competes in the 6YO finals in Fontainebleau in 2010, then he’ll be submitted to the SBS fort full approval with a Belgian studbook (where DVO is from).

Whilst Ken would always use the mantra “use the best you can afford”, you must recognize that not everyone can afford 1600€ for a covering fee. Thus there is a huge market for smaller breeders, who perhaps have a pretty, nice moving blood type mare, to whom 350€ LFG is very attractive. Having said that, you can look at the van Overis breeding program and see many examples of this blood (Darco) mixing beautifully with Ramiro mares, in fact there is one in the Zangersheide foal auction this week (Dauphine van Overis), so perhaps Ken isn’t totally right and DVO would suit a medium weight mare.

Danny is correct when he says that Ken hasn’t overly promoted DVO here, because he’s rather that breeders used the more established stallions, which are proven. Having said that Dallas has covered some mares in the UK, New Zealand and America this year, so we’ll wait for the results. I watched the discussion regarding stud fees and few weeks ago, and you have to say that there are a load of ungraded/graded, with nothing like the bloodlines, OR performance of Dallas, which are asking for more than twice the price. These stallions are plastered with superlatives such as “world class bloodlines” and other guff, whilst missing anything to do with performance. It’s for the breeder to decide, does DVO have “world class bloodlines”? I’d say without question, although I will get my backend kicked by the owner for using that phrase. His performance is well above average, that’s fact not opinion.

DVO was at Fontainebleau a week ago and sadly had the last fence (I understand that the jockey admits full responsibility) in the second round, so didn’t go through to the grand final. I watched the dvd Friday night, and can confirm that Ken is the Gordon Ramsay of the breeding world. As last bar fell, you can hear the F word echoing around the ring, followed by good natured French laughter (it’s an internationally recognized word I think). That DVO came equal first in the jumping in the 4YO last year and made the finals this year, is pure bonus. I understand that this horse isn’t supposed to be really performing until he’s six, so we’ll wait until next year.

For perspective purposes, the two last fences in the video on YouTube, stand at 1.30m (and that wasn’t the final), with a triple and a proper water jump. How does that stack up against Addington?
 
As I have said, I like this stallion because I think that his stamp is what is needed with more than a few of the mares around, In fact I have 2 I could probably use him on to inject more substance and power into them.

He certainly has done everything right so far, it is good to hear of a stallion owner who is willing to give their young stallion a chance, but is also as willing to CHOP THEM OFF, if it doesn't make the grade.
 
Having seen the videos, he is a nice careful jumper, so I liked him but didn't see anything outstanding about him. In fact I have seen some nicer 5yo's at Goresbridge in particular a 5yo gelding by Cavalier Royale. But like many have said, a lot of the horses that aren't shouting look at me as 4/5yo can actually end up being the best horses when they are older, so I would reserve my judgment for now!

Now as far as a comparison with my chap that Alleycat made, mine is definitely a 2nd class citizen
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as he is not yet licenced with any stud book, and also by blood lines having only 1 Olympic horse in his blood line and that although being Darco the 1 is the same as DVO, it is one generation futher back!

But equally I would think that 1 Olympic and 2 Grade A's in his first 2 generations of pedigree certainly wouldn't make any potential stallion a pile of rubbish, until he has a chance to prove himself under saddle. (Felix is: Unbelievable Darco / Zarlequin / Zeus)
I do see a comparison in that he is a young horse with very good breeding that is being given a chance to prove himself.

With the stud fee at that price I would... if I hadn't got my chap be seriously tempted in using him over one of our mares. What would tempt me first and foremost is the small stud fee with those bloodlines!! So there is obviously a market for this type of stallion!!
I would also think that using him when he is young could potentially be a very good move as if he does become worldclass you would already have his offspring on the ground which could therefore be worth some serious money!!
 
It will come as a huge surprise to a number of posters here, that Ken applies the same hard line approach to his own stallion as he does anyone else's (to many of you it won't). But then the industry is far more brutal in it's selection in Europe, fact not opinion, so from his perspective it would be ridiculous not to apply the same rules. DVO was also graded "Excellent" as a four year old by the Jury from the French National stud, which is something from a country which is not always the most accepting of "outside" horses.

You have to be careful when comparing apples with oranges, an ungraded, uncompeted, untried and untested stallion, will have to have an incredible marketing machine in front him. DVO who is graded, competed, tried but as yet untested, does at least have a well connected Daddy. He'll get coverings as a result, but then that's the business. Would Johnson get the coverings he gets if he were owned by a no-one? TBH Foxfolly, I feel a bit sorry for you, because your guy is going to have seriously prove himself because of the slamming he got on this board. You're already paying catch up, so good luck.

I think the point about comparing him to the rest of stallions on the French Stallions DVD, is again comparing apples with oranges. If you look at the FS dvd in detail, I think everyone of those stallions is either a world champion, Olympian, or has had one of his offspring in either the World championships or Olympics. Dallas is four in that dvd, there's a little difference.

Everyone who has seen the YouTube video does realise that the jockey's arm was broken (double fracture), right? The most recent dvd I saw (fontainebleau) shows him in a snaffle bit in the second round (1.30 - 1.35m), which is what he goes best in, and the jockey was riding without his flexicast (muppet).
 
Britbreeder, why dont you just admit that YOU are KEN. The writing similarities are identical! You are either a clone, troll or Ken himself! There is hardly any point in the cloak and dagger approach because its too obvious.
 
Would that make you feel better Anet? Well you're so far wide of the mark it not funny. Are there similarities? No coincidence, we speak the same language regarding breeding. But this thread is about Dallas van Overis, so being as you're very wrong, could we return to the subject?
 
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You have to be careful when comparing apples with oranges, an ungraded, uncompeted, untried and untested stallion, will have to have an incredible marketing machine in front him. DVO who is graded, competed, tried but as yet untested, does at least have a well connected Daddy. He'll get coverings as a result, but then that's the business. Would Johnson get the coverings he gets if he were owned by a no-one?

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I totally agree with you. This horse has everything going for it until he stops performing the way he needs to be! He may not be everyones cup of tea but if he's doing what he does well then and keeps going that way I am sure there are a lot who would use him.

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TBH Foxfolly, I feel a bit sorry for you, because your guy is going to have seriously prove himself because of the slamming he got on this board. You're already paying catch up, so good luck.

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On the contrary... a lot more people are aware of him and interested in him. It doesn't really matter to me too much though as initially I only intended to use him on our own mares and go out and have some fun on him and see what he's like once he's broken...... if anyone wants to use an ungraded & unproven stallion and wants to use him (I probably won't try to grade him until 2009 as he isn't ready yet... condition wise) then that will be a bonus.. but I will also be a bit picky about who does use him as I don't want to waste the good genes!!
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If he grades great and if he's winning in competition even better, if he isn't he'll still be fun to own and play with....and worth every penny I paid for him!! He was never bought with the intention of trying to compete with the big guns of the breeding world!!

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I think the point about comparing him to the rest of stallions on the French Stallions DVD, is again comparing apples with oranges. If you look at the FS dvd in detail, I think everyone of those stallions is either a world champion, Olympian, or has had one of his offspring in either the World championships or Olympics. Dallas is four in that dvd, there's a little difference.

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Again totally agree!

I think maybe this thread is becoming a bit of a 'lets get at Ken' thread which to my mind (although I have had my spats with him... and therfore am not a fan..) is totally unnecessary
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Nobody can take away from him the quality of semen he markets, this horse included. So lets get back to the original subject which was what do we think about this horse!!
BB although rather harsh on the other thread
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has put forward very valid points here and so what if they are Ken or his friend the points are still valid!
 
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could we return to the subject?

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Yup...no problem.

I think that DVO is very ugly and very heavy. He would suit a very light weight pretty mare that has scope and a good technique over the fences.

I have just watched the two video clips on your website.

Granted in the clips he is only a four year old but he is very untidy in the front, dangling his legs over most fences. He does not open out behind either....crunching up instead with the hind legs, which makes me think that once he gets onto bigger heights, that the jumps will catch up with him, either from his untidy front end or his lazy back end. He is slow moving, almost laborious in his way of going.

What he shows me is that the best of breeding does not mean everything!

Am sorry but have seen much nicer young showjumping stallions in Holland as 4 year olds, and to me the fact that he is at a very low fee and nobody is using the stallion says quite a lot.

But I dont mind being wrong, and if in 4 years time he is a superstar then I wish you all the best.
 
Hallo Ken! After what seemed a balanced defence of your horse's virtues and a remarkably generous & balanced comment from Foxfolly, suddenly the old Ken is back.

What you are doing in promoting your young horse is understandable.

However, as it stands, this horse is NOT World Class as you have previously defined it.

Others may judge potential & say a horse is World Class; you have always stressed performance to the extent that you have severely criticised us Brits for using horses which arguably ARE World Class, but haven't had access to the sort of stage required to fully prove it. ( A particular high quality and well-performing eventing stallion springs to mind).

To see you then campaigning a horse that- TBH - looks as if it would have been a very good horse thirty years ago and which is not, it would seem, mature enough for even those who do like it to be sure, yet, that it will be good, really undermines a lot of your previous dogma and doctrine.
So for me,
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It will come as a huge surprise to a number of posters here, that Ken applies the same hard line approach to his own stallion as he does anyone else's


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Your horse is already covering and on offer, so gelding it if it doesn't reach the required standard is only a damage limitation exercise and what I would expect of any breeder; but this is small comfort to the mare owner who has already used the horse.

You also claim - more than once on this forum- that this horse's dam is a sister of the dam of Atlantic In Style.
Surely this is untrue. She appears to be out of the same dam- therefore a half sister- but of course by a different stallion. The relationship to In Style is therefore less close than portrayed, and the superficial resemblance between the two less promising than I think you would have us believe.

Of course, these pedigrees are easy to access and anyone seriously contemplating using this horse would have found out this for themselves; but in view of a recent posting in which (without evidence) you acused another breeder of deliberately using this ploy and accused her of dishonesty, it comes as yet another unpleasant surprise to see you doing it yourself.

As to DVO, though he's not my personal cup of tea and the issues over his promotion have undermined a lot of the trust that I previously had in your integrity, Ken (outwith the necessary bias of salesmanship, of course) I hope he goes on to whatever success he deserves, and I'll be interested to see what he does achieve and produce.
 
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could we return to the subject?

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I think that DVO is very ugly and very heavy. He would suit a very light weight pretty mare that has scope and a good technique over the fences.

I have just watched the two video clips on your website.

Granted in the clips he is only a four year old but he is very untidy in the front, dangling his legs over most fences. He does not open out behind either....crunching up instead with the hind legs, which makes me think that once he gets onto bigger heights, that the jumps will catch up with him, either from his untidy front end or his lazy back end. He is slow moving, almost laborious in his way of going.



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I said exactly the same thing about Burgraff, guess who is eating their words now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Why is this about Ken all of a sudden?

He acts as an agent for his semen- he doesnt own, breed or compete the horse.....
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if my memory serves me correct, he does own him and he has a germen rider competing him, so it has to be about him a little bit as its his horse
 
Anet - you took the words out of my mouth. We may be wrong in years to come, however, at his age, his size etc, i would expect more power/spring, better technique in front etc

Not my cup of tea, but am sure he will be for plenty others, and you definately cant deny the bloodlines are very good.
 
This is such a funny thread. Alleycat starts a thread, clearly wanting to publicly trash a horse. It fails, because actually several people had good things to say about him. So frustrated is she that her little game actually ends up as a promotional thread, that in the end the red mist falls and she proceeds to publicly attack a stallion and it's owner, neither of whom can defend themselves. So funny, but definately a cheap shot.

Alleycat, here's some advice.....................don't ever take Ken on in argument about bloodlines. You'll lose 99 times out of 100. Here's a little link which might educate you. http://www.paardenfokken.nl/family.php?horseid=145995

If you know how to read such a thing you'll see that Phia and Diana are uterine sisters. If I stated earlier that they are "sisters", and that that implied "full sisters", then that was my mistake. Ken would never ever make that error, because he spends many of his days writing out and translating motherlines for two major international auctions, and as you say, he did catch someone out trying to "hoodwink" people.

The relationship is actually exactly the same regardless of the sires, cousin is cousin, but I should have said uterine sisters.

Your point about "arguably world class" is not really valid. In jumping there are only 100 world class stallions, those being the stallions ranked from 1-100 based on the success of their progeny. If there are other stallions out there who you think are "world class", then great, but those outside your bubble who read the rankings every year (which are an accurate guide) would disagree.

BTW, Ken has never made any claim about Dallas being World Class, because that wouldn't be true. So please don't put words in his mouth. Dallas appears on the French Stallions video, because the owner of French Stallions is also the owner of Dallas van Overis. I would say it's Ken's right to put a licensed stallion, that was graded "Excellent" by more knowledgeable judges than can be found in the UK (no offence intended CISS), and came equal first in the jumping Grand final, on his dvd.

Regarding the "promotion" of Dallas van Overis, it has already been stated that Ken DOESN'T promote him (other than his inclusion on the FS dvd). Danny made the point that actually Ken does the opposite, but he's very grateful to you (Alleycat) for your help. And regarding the number of mares covered? I'm sure in some parallel universe, 20 does indeed equal "nobody is using the stallion", just not the one that most of us live in.

As I said about Dallas's progression, he's a large horse and not due to really come out of himself until he's at least six. But take a look at the link below and if you know anything about horses, you'll recognise the year on year improvement. And don't forget, the jockey's ulna and radius were broken only three weeks before this video was shot, it's 1.25-1.30m class FOR 5YO'S
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UBItHYJIgbQ
 
Blimey!
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What a strange thread
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I agree with Foxfolly, this seems to be some kind of a witch hunt and in my mind, sums up everything that is wrong with this forum!!

As for the stallion, I like him. So does Cruiseline, so does Foxfolly. I think this just proves that everyone has different tastes, different mares and different goals in breeding. No-one is right or wrong in this game, some much more experienced yes but you can't say someone is wrong for liking a stallion you don't. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you've all had your negative say so why can't you accept that Ken obviously doesn't agree? It's most bizzare!

And for what is is worth, I for one miss Ken's input into this forum. Not everyone may agree with what he says but others have been just as belligerent in getting their opinions across and this thread is a prime example! He also parted with extremely knowledgeable information and advice on a regular basis.
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Blimey!
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What a strange thread
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I agree with Foxfolly, this seems to be some kind of a witch hunt and in my mind, sums up everything that is wrong with this forum!!

As for the stallion, I like him. So does Cruiseline, so does Foxfolly. I think this just proves that everyone has different tastes, different mares and different goals in breeding. No-one is right or wrong in this game, some much more experienced yes but you can't say someone is wrong for liking a stallion you don't. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you've all had your negative say so why can't you accept that Ken obviously doesn't agree? It's most bizzare!

And for what is is worth, I for one miss Ken's input into this forum. Not everyone may agree with what he says but others have been just as belligerent in getting their opinions across and this thread is a prime example! He also parted with extremely knowledgeable information and advice on a regular basis.
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[/ QUOTE ]well said i too think Ken on here is good to have with advice and his knowledge since hes gone the forums been dead!!
 
Here here JH58...I have so far refrained from commenting on any of these particular posts so far but just want to say that I agree with Foxfolly, JH58, Cruiseline, etc in their defence of this stallion...he is a young horse and whilst not going to win any beauty pagent's I have to say he is on a par or better than a LOT of other European and UK based stallions and for him to grade successfully with the AES must stand for something.....
No, this is not a stallion that currently suits either of our mare's....that said, IF we were to end up with a mare we thought was suitable then he would be a deifnite prospect, as not only is he himself very well bred and coming into his own still, but as others have said, he is available at SUCH a reasonable stud fee that I think, when you weigh his positives up, it would be silly NOT to consider him...I mean where in this country could you find a very well bred and graded stallion who is competing well at roughly £250 with a LFG?????????
 
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I mean where in this country could you find a very well bred and graded stallion who is competing well at roughly £250 with a LFG?????????

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You couldn't!! You simply couldn't! In fact, you'd be lucky just to get a graded stallion for that price with no LFG in this country - fact!

Whatever way you look at it it's a bargain. I don't think you'd find any top riders turning down a great young prospect because it's not easy on the eyes!! lol. It could be a donkey as long as it is successful and does looks really matter?? It's obviously confortmationally sound or he wouldn't have graded! I really can't see the fact he hasn't got the prettiest head in the world stopping him getting mares tbh!
 
Darco horses for me arent the prettiest of horses i think they seem to have a big looking head i havent studied this chap But if (as someone suggested) he is ugly does it matter its more about what he does and what he produces foal wise i would care if he was covered in pink spots as long as when breed with, he produced something good i think some people are a little harsh on this horse jesus as we all have said hes only a 5 year old judge him in another 2 or more years then a fairer judgement could be made but theres no getting away from the fact hes a cheap stud fee this fee is peanuts! if you are limited to what you can spend i dont think you can go too wrong
 
Exactly...Darco horses are renowned for being talented but chunky...wasn't Unbelievable Darco's nickname at one time 'Bob the Cob'???? Looks definitely help when it comes to selling the youngstock however....look at horse's the like of Finbarr....NO ONE would say that he is a good looking or even a well put together horse, HOWEVER....I would imagine if sold he would be snapped up as whilst he can be tricky to ride, his talent speaks volumes and his win record speaks for itself!
 
from my point, its not about ugly, yes hes not the prettiest thing ive seen. However its about the sparkle that a stallion should show, it should ooze quality, presence, jump etc and i dont think he does in the same way that some others do. As i said before, even if someone said its comparing apples with oranges, Calypso D'Herbiers for me is a much classier looking horse. Jump wise tidier, for me, better canter and my "type".

I dont think this is a slanging match over DVO, but someone asked an opinion of him and people have answered honestly. TBH - probably one of the horses that has really split peoples opinions on here.

Often we are all too happy to nod and say yes, i like him, or no i dont, but in this case its been interesting to see peoples take on him. I also think it has a lot to do with what people are breeding themselves as to what they prefer.
 
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Exactly...Darco horses are renowned for being talented but chunky...wasn't Unbelievable Darco's nickname at one time 'Bob the Cob'????

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LMAO
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But there are pretty ones.... or am I just biased??!! Even if his daddy is 'Bob the cob'

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But yes they have definitely got bone!! I haven't actually measured Felix but he's certainly not lacking in the leg department!!
He was quite poor when I got him, looked like he'd just come off the race track! But he's been piling on the weight and I think once at the weight I want him he will actually be quite a chunky chap all over!!
 
Machannah, I see your point, but again we're comparing apples with oranges. The video of Dallas is taken by and amateur at a regional final 5YO class. The video of Calypso d'Herbiers is of one of the greatest rounds of showjumping in history (and the soundtrack pumps it up as well), taken by the French Equestrian channel, with several TV quality cameras.

Calypso is super stallion however.
 
he is definatly a stallion i would use and i think he would suit a mare i have, he looks a promising horse in my opinion, but this thread has gone off on a personal tangent again and not about the horse. one for me for the future.
 
Hi again Ken

I think it would be difficult, on a forum that is clearly visited by such a wide range of outspoken, knowledgable and generally fair-minded breeders, to actually "trash" a horse; a good horse will be untrashable (as I think you have found once or twice yourself, Ken; the recent Irish Draught thread springs to mind) whilst a horse with faults - I wouldn't be quite so uncharitable as to say it will trash itself, but its weaknesses will become apparent under discussion and scrutiny.

It doesn't actually matter to me whether DvO suceeds or fails, and I have no wish to "trash" him or to deny him exposure to his potential public; and yes, even rather negative publicity is still publicity, so he could gain from this discussion in terms of reaching the attention of owners of mares that may suit him. This seems to have been the experience of others whose stallions you have criticised. That's good; that's what discussion boards are about; exchanging information and knowledge.

TBH though, Anet's description relieves me; this is just what I thought I saw also, and IMO the dangly legs would write him off as a cross for most TBs. I think Anet has hit the nail on the head in her judgement of what would suit him. If his Daddy is REALLY that well connected and really wants to promote this stallion perhaps he should himself invest in a few appropriate mares for his horse and prove him on this front. With the vast choice of quality stallions out there I think he'll be lucky to compete for and get the sort of mares that will improve on his weak points- hence the low stud fee, of course.

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If I stated earlier that they are "sisters", and that that implied "full sisters", then that was my mistake. Ken would never ever make that error, because he spends many of his days writing out and translating motherlines for two major international auctions, and as you say, he did catch someone out trying to "hoodwink" people.


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http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/sh...rue#Post3423028

So now, Ken, you have made this "mistake" twice....
 
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