Dangerous horses - where do you draw the line?

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horsemad32

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Say a horse has amazing breeding, fab movement and 'potential'. How much are you willing to take in terms of dangerous behaviour? How much injury would you be willing to sustain in the hopes of 'taming' that horse?

I've had a couple of nutcases, but neither of those really hurt me (falling off, yes, but only bruises and I was always up again and back on straight away). They've both matured into lovely, well behaved horses in the end, with clearly human-caused issues initially that soon went. I've met people on yards and through friends though, who have horses who don't seem to be getting there at all, and cause sometimes serious injury. Also hear about these on forums. It's often worse when the horse has huge 'potential' or amazing breeding - is it really worth risking life and limb when that horse may never come right at all? How far will you go?
 
I gave my one 5 years before I had to admit defeat and sold him back to his breeder for a lot less than I paid for him. In the end, he had broken my toes numerous times, given me whip lash and destroyed my confidence to the point where I almost gave up horses all together. He was massively talented but had not go the right mentality for competing which was the most frustrating aspect of it all. The rearing and napping were the worst I have ever encountered and he was prone to explosions of broncing for no apparent reason, he had had every vet check, saddle etc done and was not in pain. His mother was a spicy lady so what was in the cat was certainly in the kitten.
He is now happy on the hunting field, they did try to compete him with the same results as me. So he is better off as he is.
 
it depends entirely on what the horse does.
if it's evil to handle, i'd want to work out exactly why.
if it was a flipper, no chance. wouldn't care if it was by Pegasus out of Sleipnir, it'd get the bullet. no self-preservation, no thanks. i don't mind a rearer, otoh...
if it is obviously horribly uncomfortable being ridden, i'd do whatever i could, time wise and money allowing, to get to the bottom of it.
it's difficult though, I have a well-bred homebred, who has already broken me once (launched me for real for no apparent reason, and my knee disassembled itself when I landed on my feet - so not entirely her fault i guess) and i'm just not prepared to give up with her... i'm not sure what that looks like to outsiders, but it doesn't matter.
 
Personally I wouldn't tolerate an awful lot regardless of breeding, potential, etc. but that is because I have zero confidence and if I had something that was constantly threatening to deck me/attack me, it would never reach that potential as I would never do anything with it for fear of getting hurt!

But I know plenty of people that put up with lots, have worked through issues and have lovely (ish!) horses now, it's just not my cup of tea! :D
 
This is a difficult I recently had one PTS that had a prob that lead to intermittent bouts of broncing before we identified the problem ( it was so intermittent that took ages to get to the bottom of it ) my Oh begged me to get rid of it ,he had to live through five years of surgery after I had abad fall he hated me riding this horse .
When we where talking it though I said I am much more likely to come off the five year old TB we have he said but that's different that would be an accident whereas we know the other one does it.
I could not see the difference at the time but kept my mouth shut as I was worried the way I was taking the discussion could draw to the logical conculsion that they should all go but when I think about it I think where he was coming from was that it be worse to be lying in hospital thinking why why did I keep that horse when I knew it did that rather than that was one of those things.
not fully logical I know but this risking life and limb on horses isnt .
 
^^ exactly what kirsty said! I can tolerate a bit of high jinks - my youngster has a buck in him but it's never malicious, my older boy (Arab) can dance around on the spot like an idiot, but for me personally with my ability level, anything that was genuinely trying to unseat me whether through bad behaviour or pain, I wouldn't cope for long!
 
Obtaining injuries are one thing but destroying confidence is another. My confidence would probably begin to decrease even if no injury was obtained. Or if it was on the ground or being ridden. My mare used to be a nightmere to haddle (rearing straight over your head) but was good to ride but it didn't stop my confidence from being effected.
 
ecrozier said:
^^ exactly what kirsty said! I can tolerate a bit of high jinks - my youngster has a buck in him but it's never malicious, my older boy (Arab) can dance around on the spot like an idiot, but for me personally with my ability level, anything that was genuinely trying to unseat me whether through bad behaviour or pain, I wouldn't cope for long!
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You see I don't fear getting hurt just the inconvenience of it I have given my OH a terrible time now I look back at it non of my smashes have bashed my confidence I just carry on as I get older I see what a rotten time he's had I felt bad for the little horse I had PTS but he nothing bad can happen to him now and all the treatment options only would have been managing the condition hard in a horse that broncs because you get it wrong and your off and my OH is relieved and I understand that totally why now I learning to look at his side more.
Before anyone does a why not retire thing he was the field victim horribly bullied by every one but hated being out alone.
 
I drew the line when the horse was not only endangering me but everyone around it,
It ran backwards through the barriers at our area BSJA show and knocked the ring over, just because it felt like it, no other reason. I put a pro on it, and after a replay he advised us to take it home before it seriously hurt someone.

Despite it biting my mums head open, backing me down a ditch on several occasions, kicking me every time I tacked it up, and cornering me in its stable several times, rearing above me, and kicking out at passers by whilst I was trying to hack it out, I had persevered, because it had breeding upto the eyeballs (fully branded zangersheide) but at the area show I realised that no matter how tallented it was, it had got to the point where it was too dangerous, to even fullfill that, as it could not be trusted in a public place.

I should have seen it coming from the previous behavoirs but It genuinley was so tallented, and every time I nearly gave up, he would have a good day and I would have a glimmer of hope
 
I should have seen it coming from the previous behavoirs but It genuinley was so tallented, and every time I nearly gave up, he would have a good day and I would have a glimmer of hope[/QUOTE]

That's exactly what they do it's an awful emotional roller coaster but like a roller coaster when you get off you feel better very quickly .
 
lucille said:
I drew the line when the horse was not only endangering me but everyone around it,
It ran backwards through the barriers at our area BSJA show and knocked the ring over, just because it felt like it, no other reason. I put a pro on it, and after a replay he advised us to take it home before it seriously hurt someone.
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Totally agree, I had to do something when other people began to get frightened by my horse. Its not fair to expect other poeple to deal with your crazy horses or risk them getting hurt by them. (especially now everyone has a lawyer!!)
 
Definatley, I think because the things he would do became almost "normal behavoir" and it was a bonus if he didnt bite / kick/ crush me when I was tacking up and so on, I didnt realise how bad it had got.

The area show was a serious wakeup call, and when I think back I was insane to keep going as long as I did and im lucky no-one got hurt.

I guess you have to try and see the situation from an outside point of view with no emotional attatchment, what would you advise a friend in youre situation to do?

Theres a million horses out there, if youre really questioning how dangerous the horse is, and wether its time to give up, the answers are probably very, and yes
 
I think we imagine that the pro riders will put up with bad behaviour for talent, but I don't think they do. A pro can ride a challenging horse, but even they will forgo a dangerous horse. My own observation of what I consider dangerous behaviour in horses is with keen (deluded?) amateurs who don't know when to give up. I only occasionally have seen a truly dangerous horse but I would not keep one and would probably PTS for everyone's sake. (If it were mine, but then I would never buy one in the first place!)
 
ecrozier said:
^^ exactly what kirsty said! I can tolerate a bit of high jinks - my youngster has a buck in him but it's never malicious, my older boy (Arab) can dance around on the spot like an idiot, but for me personally with my ability level, anything that was genuinely trying to unseat me whether through bad behaviour or pain, I wouldn't cope for long!
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Same here.
 
jaquelin said:
I think we imagine that the pro riders will put up with bad behaviour for talent, but I don't think they do. A pro can ride a challenging horse, but even they will forgo a dangerous horse. My own observation of what I consider dangerous behaviour in horses is with keen (deluded?) amateurs who don't know when to give up. I only occasionally have seen a truly dangerous horse but I would not keep one and would probably PTS for everyone's sake. (If it were mine, but then I would never buy one in the first place!)
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It's quite easy to end up with a dangerous horse in the five years the horse I was talking about was here OH came of him three times twice on one day and I came off him three times so it was a really difficult one a really intermittent problem.
Who knows what might happen to one of your horses after you bought it that might lead to challenging behaviour it's just not as simple as I would never buy a dangerous horse.
 
I don't think you can say amount of injuries = how dangerous a horse is.

The worst/most dangerous horse I have owned/known only had me off 3 x in 2 years.

His dangerousness came from his total unpredictability and the fact he would turn on you maliciously on the ground and would try and stamp on you if he had you off :(

I will put up with a fair bit as long as the horse is not malicious and is showing improvement- there is no point continuing with a horse who WANTS to put you on the floor and is not responding to your training.

Millie has had me off about a dozen times but only once has she meant to put me on the floor- the rest of the time I have simply been a victim of her high jinks!
She has also been the one who has caused my most serious injury but that doesn't mean she is a dangerous horse- just that I landed awkwardly.
 
millitiger said:
I don't think you can say amount of injuries = how dangerous a horse is.
Agreed. I've been riding since my 5th birthday and I turn 21 this week.

I fell off two horses when I was younger when jumping because I got too complacent, I've fallen with a horse once, and my current horse bucked me off once.

My loan mare I fell off about 40 times in the two years I tried to compete her, finishing with me falling and compressing my spine.

However, she is THE most trustworthy mare ever. She just didn't want to jump and I just couldn't sit it! Totally my fault and other than jumping I would trust her with my life.
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Very early- I won't ride a horse who isn't genuine and kind. I'm nervous and make mistakes and I need my horse to be fairly supportive of that!

Equally for my sister, very early still. There is a big difference between quirky and dangerous and it's just not worth the risk. She's ridden some nutty little ponies but they've all been naughty or particular rather than dangerous. There has been one who was unsafe- it would bronc until she came off, and then pounce on her. It then reared out hacking in protest of going forwards and only just avoided going over backwards because it slipped. It went within a week, and any horse that went up like that would not be ridden again by Al I don't think. The mare in question had so much potential- amazing paces, scopey, bold and brave and an amazing hunter but it was so unpredictable and cruel in it's methods of saying no that it was just not worth it.

Always amazes me how people will keep going with horses though- there are hundreds of nice ones out there, why risk the not-nice ones? And that's speaking as someone who can only loan/ have the freebies!
 
As I get older I'm inclined to put up with less. Quirky and not in pain is fine. All horses will be checked to find out if things are ok. But there is a point in which I refuse to continue although I haven't had any issues with my horses to say what this point is. I've bred most and started the ones I own. I've been on a lot of horses over the years and it's not a brag, it's a fact. Over 2000 on a very minor estimate.

Things I've learned. Be humble, you will never get along with EVERY horse. No matter how good you are there is always someone else out there that can be just as good or better. Some horses do not have self preservation. After a few bad injuries you start to realise no matter how hard you try some horses are a danger to themselves and proving otherwise is painful. Taking a step back and asking if this is something this horse needs to do or perhaps he'd be happy in another career. The difficult dangerous horses are very rare. Far more are just a little messed up through riders who didn't get it. Most of these will come right slowly with patience. Recognizing the truly dangerous horse vs the needs time is sometimes lost. There are so many nice horses no matter what the breeding that you need to think how important it is to you. Retirement is ok as long as you take the responsibility. Putting a dangerous horse down is better than passing that horse on. Not fair on the horse and someone can get hurt badly. Breeding your really witchy mare will calm her while in season. No matter what stallion you choose that mare will be evident in her fillies. Colts and geldings not so much. A horse that you always make excuses for or doesn't give back will always be just that. Two out of 3 times he may give you all but when the chips are down I want to know I'm on a trier. Not one that takes the easy way out. Some horses do this even with nothing wrong. I will work with anything that meets me half way because once you figure them out they give you 150% all the time when needed.

Terri
 
It is true, you can't necessarily judge from injuries. And there is a big difference between coming off an athletic young horse because you don't ride well enough (no offence to anyone but it does happen) and being actively endangered by a horse doing something unusual.

I have met a few just very insane horses BUT I can count those on my fingers and you know them when you see them! But the vast, vast majority of horses behaving in unusual/dangerous ways have good reason (fractured necks, electrocution, bad childhood, scared, confused, hocks, back, foot pain, kidney disease, ESPM, bad manangement, brain tumour, feed reactions, badly fitting tack, tooth problems, bone spurs, melanomas impinging somewhere important, ulcers . . . .) but the knowing the reason is not the same thing as being able to solve the problem! Sometimes the horse needs a career change or another rider or a different situation, which may not be possible where it is. I know all sorts of horses whose issues have definitely been discomfort related but they were able to go on and do different jobs, even quite stressful ones, for any number of reasons.

That said, I'm amazed what some people put up with! I'm the patron saint of lost causes but even I feel that the horse has to be bringing something to the party. :) I will not be kicked or bitten going about my daily business. That is NOT on. Horses can express their displeasure and I will do my best to listen but they don't get to get my attention by hurting me. (If I'm dumb enough to put myself in danger, that's another issue - it's not the horse's job to keep me safe.)

Re unpredictability, it is almost always a sign of pain. It is just not in horses to behave in random ways. It is certainly possible to MISS the patterns but that's not the same thing and even in pain responses there is usually a link, it just may be very subtle. I rode one horse that panicked if he had to turn hard left at speed, especially if you didn't let him do his coping mechanism of curling right at the same time. It hardly ever came up so it looked very random when it did. Was he dangerous? I'd say yes, as they couldn't find out why he reacted that way and there is no way to guarantee it won't come up.

Re good breeding etc. Meh, the world is full of well bred horses. Popular stallions produce literally hundreds of offspring. Big studbooks produce thousands of horses a year. If the horses was REALLY good it would still be entire and/or in a breeding program. And if you've got a really royal one for no money, consider yourself forewarned. ;) Big breeders do a lot of experimenting - the really scary mistakes probably don't stick around long enough to be backed but just being a Hanovarian or similar is no guarantee of anything.

Re pros, some do ride tricky horses IF whatever makes them tricky is manageable and doesn't affect performance. And it depends where the pro is - it's generally agreed when you're starting you're not always going to get the nice easy ones but if you're doing it as a business then you have to be realistic. Yes, there are stories of the difficult horses that have made people's careers but I'd bet there are legions more where it's actually gone the other way and you don't hear those stories.

There are horses that need the time and individual attention big pro yards can't always give. I had one of those. And I couldn't always ride him but that's because he was too good, not because he was bad. ;) And when I did get my personal act together, he won.

As I've got older I've got less tolerant and much less inclined to bang square pegs into round holes (or try to teach pigs to sing) just to satisfy my pride. Not just because I don't want to get hurt - although I'm not keen on it, the risk goes with the territory - but because I've seen so many such situations over the long term now, I'm better at judging what's worth it and what's not. And I've "fixed" horses sometimes only to find out in the end I did them no favours and arguably made their lives worse in the long run. :(

Hmm, not really an answer. :) Basically . . . .it depends. I meet lots of horses people are in despair over and yet they seem very fixable - or at least easily and safely manageable - to me. And others people are very cheery about horses that I would not ever want for my own. So often it's an individual situation, too - I will often say to people it's worth trying if you can do/expect/live with xyz but not if you can't. So one person's dangerous might be another person's somewhat inconvenient.
 
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See, I don't ever get the impression a pro will put up with a dangerous horse. I think they will put up with a quirky horse if they think it has the ability to a) do well and b) they are able to sort it out. IMO a pro can not put themself through the danger of riding a dangerous horse - if they get injured it is their whole business ruined until they are able to get back in action (if properly).

Myself I carried on with a horse who I probably would class as dangerous...when I look back on it now I have mixed feelings. In one way I did put myself in danger as he did go over twice with me (he was a compulsive rearer) and we did spend a lot of time doing a LOT of rearing and then leaping through the air and bucking in mid air. Not fun. But although we had a LOT of horrendous times with him (like him burying me head and neck first into a XC jump) but I am glad we carried on with him because we did discover after a long time that his problems stemmed from too much pressure being put on him.

It sounds stupid that it took so long but the thing with him was at home he would jump 1m30-1m40 tracks (only 15hh) but he just would NOT do it at shows (I'm talking 60cms) so it was hard to know if he was being naughty - but he was SO lovely at home both ridden and on the ground we just couldn't give up him.

As I said, in hindsight he WAS dangerous but we stopped competing him completely and he went to a loan home where he lives with a yummy mummy who does the occasional dressage test with him and he spends his whole time hacking out, nannying the ponies and munching away in his field. He has NEVER been a problem again, I can truly say though to see him as happy as he is now makes the injuries worthwhile...but mentally (more so than physically) I don't think I would be able to do it all again


ETA we have recently discovered what we are pretty sure was a cause to a lot of his problems and basically his brains had been blown and it was all a matter of him being a ticking time bomb waiting to explode :(
 
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Line gets drawn very quickly! I have no time for a horse I am not going to enjoy, and I need a horse to be able to enjoy its work/play with me too. Mine can be a complete arse with the best of them, but he has no malice in his body, and his 'displays of character' are always either due to excitement, genuine fear, or just being a pita.

I did have a pita horse when I was a teen, looking back I should have done so many things differently, and I still feel guilty and sorry for him that I didn't do more :o
 
TarrSteps said:
That said, I'm amazed what some people put up with! I'm the patron saint of lost causes but even I feel that the horse has to be bringing something to the party. :) I will not be kicked or bitten going about my daily business. That is NOT on. Horses can express their displeasure and I will do my best to listen but they don't get to get my attention by hurting me. (If I'm dumb enough to put myself in danger, that's another issue - it's not the horse's job to keep me safe.)
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This, absolutely. I can't believe the people who put up with a horse that bites and kicks as standard behaviour - every time it's tacked up, say. That is NOT normal, it's an 'anticipation of pain' response - ignore at your peril. Laughing it off = shortcut to disaster (and I've seen people laughing about dodging teeth and hooves... jeeez.)
I expect my horses to be SAINTLY around the yard etc, because I have non-horsey people around, frequently, and I cannot risk them... even my foal is saintly, because she learnt very very quickly that certain behaviours (anything to do with hooves and teeth) are totally unacceptable!

The point about Pros is a good one. A friend had a mega-talented but very tricksy horse which she sent to a Pro - he didn't think it did anything particularly difficult! They'll cope with difficult-but-trainable-if-you're-firm (and secure), what they won't put up with (unless they're desperate for rides) is impossible and unpredictable, however talented it looks.
 
For me it totally depends on the reason for the behaviour, and if it's malicious or not. I can put up with being dumped, I can put up with bad behaviour on the ground, I can put up with all kinds of behaviour and have done on numerous horses in the past, but I won't put up with a horse that is intentionally trying to hurt you or itself just out of nastiness, rather than fear/pain/learned behaviour.

Saying that I don't think there are many horses out there that are just pure nasty. Most of my good horses have all come to me as being dangerous and only good for a bullet. There's not one that I haven't been able to find the key to eventually, or had to give up on. But I'm sure I'll meet one one day!!
 
kerilli said:
This, absolutely. I can't believe the people who put up with a horse that bites and kicks as standard behaviour - every time it's tacked up, say. That is NOT normal, it's an 'anticipation of pain' response - ignore at your peril. Laughing it off = shortcut to disaster (and I've seen people laughing about dodging teeth and hooves... jeeez.)
I expect my horses to be SAINTLY around the yard etc, because I have non-horsey people around, frequently, and I cannot risk them... even my foal is saintly, because she learnt very very quickly that certain behaviours (anything to do with hooves and teeth) are totally unacceptable!

The point about Pros is a good one. A friend had a mega-talented but very tricksy horse which she sent to a Pro - he didn't think it did anything particularly difficult! They'll cope with difficult-but-trainable-if-you're-firm (and secure), what they won't put up with (unless they're desperate for rides) is impossible and unpredictable, however talented it looks.
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I totally aggree with your point about nasty on the yard that I would not put up with ever. I have a friend whose TB is a monster to look after it attacks her in the field when she tries to catch it it bites her all the time kicks I could go on I would kill it ( in fact I would PTS if it where mine ) its retired now it's got very nasty foot trouble I think that's is at the bottom of all this nastiness ( it was nasty when it was sound though )
I can't see what any one is getting out of it .
 
kerilli said:
This, absolutely. I can't believe the people who put up with a horse that bites and kicks as standard behaviour - every time it's tacked up, say. That is NOT normal, it's an 'anticipation of pain' response - ignore at your peril. Laughing it off = shortcut to disaster (and I've seen people laughing about dodging teeth and hooves... jeeez.)
I expect my horses to be SAINTLY around the yard etc, because I have non-horsey people around, frequently, and I cannot risk them... even my foal is saintly, because she learnt very very quickly that certain behaviours (anything to do with hooves and teeth) are totally unacceptable!
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This - I can not stand a horse that is bad on the ground AT ALL.

We used to have a mare who was not in pain (we had everything checked) but her mum was an absolute cow and she seemed to pick up on it too and was horrible from day dot. To tack her up she had to be hobbled and wore a muzzle - one time she got my mum in the corner of the stable and tried her best to kick the **** out of mum - mum saved herself buy protecting herself with the saddle (broke the saddle but thank god it wasn't a person). Strangely enough once ridden she was perfect but we sent her off to be a broodmare (rightly or wrongly) and actually she turned out to be so much nicer once she had her first baby!
 
^ A horse's upbringing can count for much more than people usually assume, I think. It's interesting to know families of horses (not just siblings but cousins and the like) and see the patterns that emerge. I knew a mare who was brutal to her kids and they all grew up nervy and inclined to panic, although others from the same farm and stallion were not. Nature or nurture?

Re checking everything out . . . It really is no guarantee and I actually think it's got worse now because there are so many things we can check, we tend to assume we've looked under every rock. I've known so many horses vets pronounced were fine only to have something turn up later. Even recently a vet told someone I know her horse was DEFINITELY a behavioural problem and lo and behold, it turns out to have a significant bilateral lameness. Sometimes you have to trust your instincts.

This is not to bash vets or science, quite the opposite. They both have perfectly understandable limitations and to expect them somehow to be perfect, future predicting marvels is unfair. Vets can tell you what they find but they cannot tell you what they don't find.

By the same token, I've known horses writtin off that returned to some sort of working life, perhaps with limitations but comfortable none the less. There is no shame in getting it wrong sometimes!
 
Ugh. How terrifying for your mum, lucky escape.
I was skipping out at a yard once (i was there for training) and a mare attacked me (her owner has just pulled her entire mane and tail, as the mare stood cold in the stable, and apparently the next person into the stable always 'got it', nobody told me!), luckily her first shot missed (although i got a mouthful of shavings out of her back feet as i leapt back, she was THAT close but luckily i moved very fast back then!) and i managed to keep her off me with the shavings fork, like a flipping lion tamer, as i edged back to the door...
that cemented it in my mind, i NEVER want a horse to have that attitude to me again. i won't have a downright nasty horse around. there is always a reason, but if they are that evil, i don't want to risk being maimed or killed as i try to work out why...
as for horses that try to jump on you if you are on the floor, or who kick you in midair as you fall off them (i've heard of this twice now) - bullet. no question.
 
kerilli said:
as for horses that try to jump on you if you are on the floor, or who kick you in midair as you fall off them (i've heard of this twice now) - bullet. no question.
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That was it for us. This little mare was going for her once Al hit the ground and no horse is worth your safety. It was scary as she was doing massive twisty bucks and then pouncing. She's since been out of work completely as no one will touch her (the owner is not entirely impressed by this...) as they saw her in action. Pity as the mare was stunning- if you wanted the perfect looking little horse for a young rider, she was it in looks.

Interestingly, we have had other ponies who were also prone to telling you with their teeth but have dealt with it. One pony drew blood from mum as she happened to be standing near her when she was being girthed- she lunged, and mum was in the way. But she always did it and generally we stayed well away from her head and made sure others did too... That we could put up with as it was manageable and we did't tend to have non-horsey people near her without close supervision.
 
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