Dangerous mare

dozzie said:
It sounds as if she frightens herself tbh. My old chap was similar and i was told to PTS at 6 by a BHSII because he was "Mad". He wasnt mad he was just terribly insecure and needed lots of reassurance. He used to panic under pressure. I found dropping contact and using a really calm voice worked wonders. I had him pts this year aged 32. Had years of fun with him too once i gained his trust but he was only ever a one persons horse...mine. In his later years other people could ride him but only if they told him constantly he was a good boy and put him under no pressure.

By persisting i ended up with the most loyal horse I could ever have dreamt of owning. He was never easy per se but he would have jumped the moon for me had I asked him.

I had him pts in July and I dont think I will ever have the same bond again.:(
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That is so lovely and such a wonderful story, it's brought tears to my eyes.
 
If shes dangerous to ride,then dont ride her.Put her out as a field companion,change her diet. Do you put messed up people to sleep NO .Give her a chance,afterall it isnt her fault.
 
TBH, I wonder where your sense is if she is as dangerous as she sounds. Put her down and be thankful she hasn't hurt anyone yet or worse, she doesn't deserve second or tenth chances if she flips like that. Plenty more horses around that can give you pleasure not pain.
 
Sorry, not read all the replies, so apologies if I'm repeating anyone:

Has she been checked for a brain tumour? I ask because I used to ride a mare that had had a tough time of it. If she saw a cowboy she would flip (I was living in the USA at the time), also she would lose it at other odd times.

The ranch owner bought her from a sales for me to event.

One day she went from standing still, we were chatting with friends, when suddenly she put her head down, leapt the twelve or so foot wide ditch ditch sideways, bogged off down the edge do the orchard (me flat on her back trying not to be swept off by the branches), leapt back sideways again onto the road. Stopped dead. Then was fine and sweet again.

We had a few other interesting sessions, inlcuding her pulling a tie-up stake out of the ground (sunk a good four feet in), but the final one came when the ranch owner was watching. She went from being completely fine, to completely losing it. Bronced, corkscrewed, bucked, reared, shot around the school at warp factor five. I came off three times - into the bottom of one of the school gate posts (flaming solid thing), onto the top rail (still have a dent in my wrist), and then she flew the gate from a standing start facing the other way (I landed on my back, having hit the gate post on the way and flipping over). The owner said enough. Cowboys couldn't get near her, and no-one but me would ride her. He had her put to sleep. The post-mortem showed a brain turmour.
 
MrsMozart said:
Sorry, not read all the replies, so apologies if I'm repeating anyone:

Has she been checked for a brain tumour? I ask because I used to ride a mare that had had a tough time of it. If she saw a cowboy she would flip (I was living in the USA at the time), also she would lose it at other odd times.

The ranch owner bought her from a sales for me to event.

One day she went from standing still, we were chatting with friends, when suddenly she put her head down, leapt the twelve or so foot wide ditch ditch sideways, bogged off down the edge do the orchard (me flat on her back trying not to be swept off by the branches), leapt back sideways again onto the road. Stopped dead. Then was fine and sweet again.

We had a few other interesting sessions, inlcuding her pulling a tie-up stake out of the ground (sunk a good four feet in), but the final one came when the ranch owner was watching. She went from being completely fine, to completely losing it. Bronced, corkscrewed, bucked, reared, shot around the school at warp factor five. I came off three times - into the bottom of one of the school gate posts (flaming solid thing), onto the top rail (still have a dent in my wrist), and then she flew the gate from a standing start facing the other way (I landed on my back, having hit the gate post on the way and flipping over). The owner said enough. Cowboys couldn't get near her, and no-one but me would ride her. He had her put to sleep. The post-mortem showed a brain turmour.
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I am presuming your currently broken back is not the only horse related injuryyou have ever had:eek:

Horses dont flip for no reason and it is usually pain or tumor related, one of the other posters has suggested thermal imaging, this could be a way forward.
 
I'd echo the brain tumour suggestion - and have heard a few people say they have been helped by animal communicators (just get recommendations!).

By all means try turning her away, or allowing someone - whether it be a natural horsemanship follower, or just a horseman/woman with a good reputation of dealing with troubled horses, have a look at her. Make sure you are brutally honest - so they are under no illusions as to what she may or may not do.

Do keep in mind though - if you are too wary of her, then don't ride her - and don't pass her on to someone else until you know for certain that the problem is solved. Never, ever, take risks with your, or anyone else's life.
 
Allover said:
I am presuming your currently broken back is not the only horse related injuryyou have ever had:eek:
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Lol, a dent in the wrist, but no broken bones or head damage or back damage :D. I bounced so much better in those days :D :D

The mare that I was riding had had 120 days cow training (if memory serves me right). We think she had not taken well to it, hence the fear and behaviour whenever a cowboy got close :(. I don't know what caused the brain tumour.
 
Thanks to everyone for responding - all read and taken on board.

My vet came out today and we have checked mare out today from top to bottom (scans, Xrays etc). Up shot is a no pain so I am looking at a behaviour issue.

We have come so far and she is starting to trust me so I know we can build on this.

This time last year she had a melt down if the clippers were even on in thr same yard as her - the other week with the help of a Michael Peace dvd I clipped her with no drugs and tricks by myself with her just in a head collar.

If she can take the clippers after her bad experience (pinned down and clipped as a yearling for the sales) then I think we can break down the tacking up as well with a similar technique.

In answer to some of the questions she is 9 and I got her 18 months ago.
She is fed on nothing but Hi Fi lite and grass / hay. She broke her jaw and pelvis when she was pulled over as a youngster with a chiffney in order to "teach her a lesson".

She has bred one foal and the reason I got her was because despite covering her 3 times in one season she didn't take. She was hobbled to be covered!

I know plenty of people think I'm an idiot but she is with me forever however long that may turn out to be. If I have to make that final decision then I will but I will have tried my hardest first because someone owes her that much at least. I am really lucky to be on a private yard with only 2 others so I can make this decision without putting anyone else or their horses at risk.

I'm also going to see about rearranging my work hours so that i can work her in the mornings when the others are at work and safely out of the way.

Thanks again to everyone.
 
Hi,

Sorry to hear of your problem.

Contact Carrie Humble (I think she's with Greatwood Racehorse Rehabilitation Centre) as she may have some experience of this, be able to give you some advice over the phone or at least point you in a better direction.

Also, cut out absolutely ALL SUGAR - no carrots, apples, lickits, mints or anything else and cut out all hard feed as well. My horse was like this and a change of diet helped enourmously.

Good luck!!:)
 
Keep Trying said:
Hi,

Sorry to hear of your problem.

Contact Carrie Humble (I think she's with Greatwood Racehorse Rehabilitation Centre) as she may have some experience of this, be able to give you some advice over the phone or at least point you in a better direction.

Also, cut out absolutely ALL SUGAR - no carrots, apples, lickits, mints or anything else and cut out all hard feed as well. My horse was like this and a change of diet helped enourmously.

Good luck!!:)
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Carrie is the founder of The Thoroughbred Rehabilitation Centre.
 
My TB mare was a total mentalist when I 1st took her on for free as she was going to be pts due to her dangerous behaviour. The woman lied to get rid of her. She had gotten her from someone else who had left her in the field in the middle of winter, underweight with no food or rug. I took her on anyway and I couldn't do anything with her at all to begin with. Took 4 and half hours to load her into the box to take her home. She went through stable doors, moody around everyone and WOULD attack you, they were not empty threats! The previous woman had fully clipped her under sedation as her coat was all matted and I couldn't even change a rug without holding onto her head and reaching back. She wouldn't allow 2 people round her at all. The vet said that if things didn't change then it would be best to pts. Slowly she started to change but the big changes came in when she was left to do her own thing really when my gelding was ill and on box rest for 9 months. She was just bought in and turned out and fed and that was about it really. She changed so much and as the years passed things became a lot easier. Small things like being able to bath her using a hose are now possible. She is the kindest and most gentle mare now. Still a sharp ride but anyone can handle her on the ground now. If you are able to just give her time out and take things slow, give it a go. People can't believe my mare is the same horse that tried to jump motorway bridge railings or bolted across motorways and fields with people!
 
We had a mare like this on loan, she was an absolute sweetie UNTIL she flipped, it would come from nowhere and for no reason! I was only 11 at the time and liked to be involved with her (I was Mums Unpaid groom!) but after flipping twice, once when I was alone with her, she was sadly sent back to her owners where I believe she was PTS.

The thing that instantly springs to mind is a brain tumour..........
 
I've had a TB mare like this. Bought her from a woman who had turned her away for a number of years, never really got the true picture as to why. She was quite poor when I had her, had a number of health problems & terrible feet. She was a sweetie to begin with but gradually became more demented as her health improved. She too would just totally flip out, she used to throw herself on the floor, rear, so through doors, she was never horrible to people but was dangerous to be around & would easliy hurt you if you got in the way.

She did get better when she buddied up with my old mare, this did create problems in itself when I seperated them, but this was better than her being just nuts as I could expect it - if that makes sense. Generally she was a loving horse but U could never predict her outbursts. The final straw came when she went deranged out on a hack on a motorway bridge - a bridge she had crossed almost daily. She took off, when I stopped her she had such a tantrum she leapt up landed on a car & was so deranged I had to get off - and I never do that.

I was in the same dilemma as you, I didn't know what to do. I bought her for my sister to ride who wasn't equipped to deal with her flip side. I couldn't risk riding her with 8 other horses & a full time job to deal with, I couldn't risk getting injured. After weeks of sleepless nights I ended up letting her go to an experienced family who kept her on a working yard. They approached me, I was very reluctant I have to say & they came & tested her out about 20 times until I was satisfied they had seen her perform. Obviously they knew all about everything I experienced with her. She was a different horse with all the work she had & ended up becoming one of the favourites on the yards that learners used! She's retired to gentle hacking now, still a bit of a stress head but doesn't have any problems.

Thinking back I do wonder if there were some issues that may have caused her problems. She'd been through a lot of change when we bought her - gone from being 2 down to 1, apparantly she didn't take to losing her friend well. Then we had her, my horse bullied her terribly. Her on going health problems did seem to get her down at times. Mentally I wonder if there was too much going on all at once and she just couldn't take it. Do u think there could be anything like that effecting your mare?

I wouldn't PTS just yet, not until I'd exhausted every avenue, but it may be the best thing in the end. My friend had a totally deranged horse who used to flip out on a regular basis for no apparant reason, she ended up dropping dead with a brain tumour - sorry, not a positive note to end on.
 
I would take her off the HI-Fi Lite. It contains alfalfa and molasses, although low sugar it is not 'no sugar'. The mare I mentioned before couldn't tolerate ANY sugar AT ALL. We could feed her on alfalfa but we have one now that cannot have alfalfa as that sends he loopy. The TBx mare that couldn't eat sugar was very unpredictable in her behaviour until she got so bad that it was almost constant. We think that she actually became psychotic. We think that one reason that she was like this was that as a 2 yr old she had been kept very short of food (and roughly treated). The breeder bought her back and fed her up but IMO the process happened too fast and she was given far too much hard feed. This was in the '80s when it was considered 'old-fashioned' to feed horses a high fibre, low cereal diet. I'm not surprised your mare finds it difficult to trust people after her experiences!
 
sorry, I do not have time to read all replies so am probably reiterating what others have said.

you do say that 'something will make her flip' so it would appear she does not just flip for no reason, there is a cause or reason for it. perhaps look for a pattern as to what causes her to flip and manage her care/environment to avoid this.

how old is she?
is it connected to her hormones?

i have a mare who can be unpredictable.
at one point i was told i would have to sort her out or she would become 'unrideable'. her behaviour as a youngster was often 'dangerous'. there are still the odd day i choose not to ride her as she is very hormonal and i feel it would be unwise. BUT As she has got older she has improved MASSIVELY. although when in season and something 'stresses her', or she feels under too much pressure, she can still be a bit challenging.

She will never be a novice ride and can still be challenging when in season but is a pleasure to own, and ride most of the time. She just needs very sensitive riding when necessary. I am not saying this is your mare, but do not underestimate the power of hormones on a mare's behaviour, or how much improvement comes with time and just growing up.

good luck.
 
I agree with Pearlsinger take her off the sugar, mine are on winergy low and it suits all 4. I think you are taking the right steps with your mare as it sounds like she's had a very bad time in the past. I couldn't find out much about my mare, only she came over from Ireland and what the previous owner was willing to tell me and the story kept changing.But I love her to pieces have done through the bad times and good, and the good times are getting better and better and she trusts people now not just me.:D:D:D:D:DStill cann't get her teeth done though, sigh
 
I would remove the alfalfa as it is a phyto-oestrogen, which can cause problems with some mares. In fact my friend deliberately feeds alfalfa to her late cut gelding as it calms down his rather stallionish tendancies. My mareish mare cannot have alfalfa as it causes tantrums (usually on the road!)
 
I'm not one to go for the PTS option easily, but if she really does flip out for no apparent reason I would advise PTS. I can only think that if she if physically fine she might have some sort of a brain problem - tumors and something akin to epilepsy have been known to cause such behaviour.
 
I feel nervous answering this in case anything should go badly wrong for you and your mare, but I had one with rather similar problems and She/we overcame them - more or less.

I acquired what I thought was a depressed, dejected, malnourished TB mare. She was all of those things but she also had a very violent, mistrusting nature. She knocked me down, bit me, kicked me. I remember my son's horror when on coming home from uni just after I got her I said "Come and see my new horse", and she knocked me down within about 30 seconds.

By pure chance I then discovered her background. She had been sold as a 2yr old to a girl who had turned her out in a field with no horse or hiuman company for 18 months. The man who had owned her sire was so upset he bought her, and found he had a pretty deranged horse on his hands. Just today I found the notes I took in my telephone conversation with this man "so wild we couldn't have her vetted - reared up and put her front feet on the vet's shoulders!" "When broken, put her into training (her dam had been a very useful hurdler) - trainer sent her back after 3 weeks as unrideable.." "Show jumped to international standard with daughter - an AI - but daughter too frightened to handle her on the ground".

Unfortunately due to family ill-health Rose had to be sold, had 3 foals and was just sliding down the slippery hill when I bought her.

As I knew none of this until she had already started improving I had just worked doggedly on, because she was the most beautiful horse I have ever seen, because I loved her, and because everybody said I couldn't bring her round. It was the biggest challenge I've ever faced with a horse. I have no letters after my name but just many years of being around horses, and so I just started from scratch as though she had been wild. I found the thing that helped her most was "hand-grooming", which you never see done nowadays, but horses love it. You basically groom them, head to toe, but using the palm of your hand instead of a brush. Whenever I went to see her in the field or when I brought her in I always did this, even if for only 30 seconds - it was our greeting moment. I also did join up (difficult as we don't have a pen or manege but it worked in the open field) and I spent 'non-horse' time with her, e.g. taking a cup of coffee out and sitting on the fence near her drinking it, podding peas on an old stool in the yard - just anything to build her trust.

She was a misery to ride at first, as she flung her head about and jogged. I'd seen pictures of her showjumping with the kitchen sink in her mouth, but I changed to a hackamore and she loved it. We did a little LDR but her legs weren't up to it after all the jumping.

I had her for 5 years till she sadly had to be PTS with a twisted gut, and she and I trusted each other. She behaved impeccably with the one livery owner I had then, and with my son. She was very cool to strangers, but her behaviour improved so much that I didn't worry.

Sorry this has been a long ramble, but it's an issue close to my heart. As I said, I have no qualifications apart from experience, and you probably have much more. Think a plan through, talk it over with friends, and always be aware of what your mare could do. Forewarned is forearmed! And I do hope you can bring her round.
 
I know situations like this that span both ways, success and pts.

If your going to PTS I think in my opinion you need to feel asthough you have tried absolutly everything, so you cannot think back and get attacked by the 'whatifs'. It's obvious you really love the mare, and she has an aweful lot to overcome, but if she has already improved so much, then I think it would be wrong to waste that time.

If you knew a troubled child would you give up hope? Probably not. You'd try different things.

If all else fails turn her out in a field. Let her be a horse for a while. And try start over again.
And if still nothing. I'm sure she could make a lovely field companion :)
Either way, don't rush into anything.

Last thing we want is either one of you to get hurt.
 
Honestly? I would pull her shoes off, rug her up & turn her away. For at least 6 months, if not 12.

Then start her again quietly, consistently & with relevant support.

What have you got to loose? :)
 
thatsmygirl said:
This is a very good point which I forgot to mention, diet can be a big part off behaviour ESP cereals and high sugar feeds. I won't feed any mixes or sugar beet to any horse and stick with low sugar,starch feed. It's made a huge difference to horses iv worked with
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I strongly believe this too......two of my horses came to me as highly strung nervous wrecks.....a high fibre/oil diet has totally changed their behaviour.

I'm sure you'll have looked into this though.

Nothing to add except I understand how stressful this must be for you. ((hugs))
 
One of our horses an AQH was showing very similar behaviour to the horse described.

Very sudden changes in temperment, explosive reactions, becoming almost unmanageable.

She ran at full gallop through a dry stone wall and barbed wire fence, no damage to her thank god. I saw her do that and seeing a horse with that speed, weight and acceleration just demolish everything in her path made me think we had made an awful mistake buying her.

On another occasion she smashed a wooden five bar gate to match wood in seconds.

She would have a glazed look in her eyes like no ones there.

After one of these outbursts, things settled and she was sweetness and light, a really lovely mare.

The solution was diet, she is sugar intolerant, anything with sugar or traces of sugar sets her off.

Its been some years now since all that and I often think about how close I came to losing her.

I note that the horse described has some severe past injuries, I'm really lucky mine did not have the same.

I assume as an ex racer, a lot of sugar/grain has been in her diet in the past.

Try cutting out sugar/grain as others here have suggested, it may work and is easy to do.
 
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Rose Folly. A person after mine on heart. Every animal should have a second chance after abuse, some take longer than others, perhaps we should treat humans like we do animals. PTS those that are anti social or violent to others that would get my vote everytime:):)
 
Thank you all so much for all of your advice!

Finally some good news to report I think (fingers still crossed!).

I had my vet out on Tuesday who checked her over from top to bottom and ruled no pain - lousy temper :-(

Today Michael Peace came out. I called him as I needed help truth be told and also so that those around me who are being affected by my decision to keep this mare could also see that I really am taking this issue seriously.

I can not thank him enough. He is the most quiet unnassuming man I have ever met and his manner is just brilliant.

He worked quietly with her and the end result was a quiet happy mare who had actually thought through everything and agreed to everything instead of having things forced upon her.

I realised that I have almost tried to untack too fast and by rushing her I probably stressed her out further. I also couldn't believe how she reacted with her own bridle compared to her lunge bridle (never seen a horse react to individual kit like that).

I feel like a huge weight has been listed and although not cured I now feel as if I have the tools to deal with whatever we end up facing in the future.

I love the bones of this mare and I know she can be brilliant! Everything bad in her world has happened because of people but I will prove to her that I deserve her trust.

Thank you all again

x
 
Baileybones said:
I love the bones of this mare and I know she can be brilliant! Everything bad in her world has happened because of people but I will prove to her that I deserve her trust.

Thank you all again

x
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She is lucky to have you at last, i hope you have a long and happy life together, best of luck :)
 
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