darcy just attacked another dog : (

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lula

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feel like crying.. from frustration , from annoyance, disappointment i just dont know.

I was just saying yesterday on here how maybe the situation isnt so bad but now i think maybe it is
it was such a little 'patch' dog.. like the logo on the Dogs Trust. they sort of both went up to each other and cos it was smaller than her i thought it would be fine..they sniffed bums..all good.. then they sniffed noses and i saw darcy pull the teeth face and was about to jump in but before i could they were cartwheeling over the Green with their teeth in each other.

by the time me and the other owner managed to get them apart their poor little dog had a bleeding ear and obviously, pretty damn pissed off. I was so upset for them.
i live on a small four sided square around a Green where we all walk our dogs and darcy is such a lovely dog with people but we are becoming so reviled among other dog owners and im going to have to keep her on a lead from now on although she doenst START the fights exactly..she will leave other dogs alone. Maybe this time it was my fault, i let her meet the dog hoping it would be ok and it wasnt. I should have just dragged her away so my bad i guess.

i know people are going to tell me to get a trainer and maybe i'll have to but tbh, i work freelance and with 2 horses too money is so tight right now...

i have an agility class at 4pm today but now im really thinking of not going.
Will the trainer of the class think me irresponsible to bring along a dog that will attack if approached by another one?
i was really looking forward to it but this incident this morning has devastated me. Its not like a random dog attacking another in the park. These are my neighbors and they hate me!



maybe i should ring up the Agility trainer and just ask her if its ok to bring her? Ive Lost all confidence in darcy now and just sitting here on the sofa smoking furiously and looking at her balefully!

sorry about the long post.

the trouble maker
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Sorry, but you DO need a trainer or behaviourist in to watch and see what the triggers are and if you are influencing her without realising it.
Give your agility trainer a call and chat. Maybe he or she can offer some help and advice also and have a look at her.
Keeping her isolated from other dogs will not help in the long run.

Also, drop the anger and the mood, hard as it may seem, just calm down and if you are in a temper, put her away or something and take her out again later. Anger, temper etc adds stress to an already stressful situation.
 
I would go to agility, keeping her on a lead. I would also keep her on a lead at all times for the time being, or long line if you know she is prone to doing this.

Dogs will be dogs, they wont like every single dog they meet.
 
CaveCanem said:
Sorry, but you DO need a trainer or behaviourist in to watch and see what the triggers are and if you are influencing her without realising it.
Give your agility trainer a call and chat. Maybe he or she can offer some help and advice also and have a look at her.
Keeping her isolated from other dogs will not help in the long run.

Also, drop the anger and the mood, hard as it may seem, just calm down and if you are in a temper, put her away or something and take her out again later. Anger, temper etc adds stress to an already stressful situation.
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you're right i know. im reasonably sure its a fear reaction - i'll attack you before you attack me - kinda thing... and yes being annoyed doesnt help, but seeing that poor little dog with its ear bleeding and the horrified owner hating me for it and i have to see her everyday but it was probably my fault letting them meet so i cant really blame the dog.

i'll ring the agility lady now. feel better if at least she knows and she still says its ok to come if she doesnt then at least ive been responsible. This is just the worst day ive had with her so just feeling low.
..but feeling sorry for myself wont help.
 
Ditto CC and yep I would take her to agility as well, its a controlled on lead environment and may be very good for her actually. BUT yes have a word with the agility trainer, they may be able to help, if not themselves they may know of someone local to you they can recommend. Also I have a feeling you will be rather tense at agilty tonight, which will not help, it may help if the trainer knows the situation so can help with your handling tonight to make it a positive experience for you both rather than a very stressful one.
 
Lula, did the other owner pull their dog out or pull the dogs apart? Was she latched on? Or was it a snap or was she ragging it about? These are all things to think about.
Was it a small dog? Did it act like 'prey'?
Humans intervening in scraps can make the situation 10x worse sometimes, screaming and shouting and wading in and adding tension, that's when most bites take place, although of course we all want to protect our own dogs. If we do need to wade in, we need to be calm and firm and perhaps use a lead or a belt to control the attacking dog and if need be, restrict the air supply, sounds harsh but better than multiple puncture wounds for the dog under attack.
Some dogs as Lexie say, provoke certain reactions in others and it can happen in the blink of an eye and through body language that is often inperceptible to our eyes - which is why, with dogs like this, keeping her on a lead around other dogs until you have cracked it, is important.
 
trainer said it was fine to still come as all dogs will be on the lead anyway.

i know this trainer from when i was a freelance photographer for dogs today magazine years ago. i didnt have a dog then as i just went there to photograph but not sure if she does one on one but maybe she can help me with Darcy's fear issues.
if not, does anyone know of where id look to find a good trainer in the south northants, north oxon area?
 
You must advise the agility trainer and probably take a long line with you - it would be irresponsible to allow your dog off lead with others, particularly if you have no immediate recall or the control to call it back or put it into the down position immediately.

You need help on all measures of obedience and if you have no control off lead, then your dog should be on the lead. You do not allow a dog to go up to other dogs if you know it can be aggressive. You are lucky the other owner did not take more of an issue with it.

A trainer will show you the tools to work with.

I am sorry I simply do not buy you don't have the time or the money - if you have a dog you have a responsibility and you find both. You have two horses - some people can't even afford one. So you find the funds - perhaps do training initially instead of agility.

Finally, there is nothing wrong with having a dog on a lead - a lunge line allows it more freedom - and until you have ultimate control that is where they should be.
 
CaveCanem said:
Lula, did the other owner pull their dog out or pull the dogs apart? Was she latched on? Or was it a snap or was she ragging it about? These are all things to think about.
Was it a small dog? Did it act like 'prey'?
Humans intervening in scraps can make the situation 10x worse sometimes, screaming and shouting and wading in and adding tension, that's when most bites take place, although of course we all want to protect our own dogs. If we do need to wade in, we need to be calm and firm and perhaps use a lead or a belt to control the attacking dog and if need be, restrict the air supply, sounds harsh but better than multiple puncture wounds for the dog under attack.
Some dogs as Lexie say, provoke certain reactions in others and it can happen in the blink of an eye and through body language that is often inperceptible to our eyes - which is why, with dogs like this, keeping her on a lead around other dogs until you have cracked it, is important.
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me and the other owner were just looking on to start with and i let her because darcy does sometimes like smaller dogs, its the larger ones she has most issues with.

as i said in OP, they initially went bum to bum which i alsways take as a good sign..then they nose sniffed and i saw darcy's lip twitch and i went to jump in as thats when trouble usually kicks off with her.
i have asked myself if that moment of tension in me initiated her going for the dog but it happened so fast.. i think she made the first move but the other dog gave as good as it got and they were both tussling together latched on for a good 30 seconds before me or the other owner (it was a guy although his wife rushed out of her house in panic at hearing all the din!)

it was pretty frantic and other dog ended with a torn ear. Ive never seen her attack a little dog like that before and it made no threatening moves or gestures far as i could see.
she does have fear issues with larger dogs most definitely. i think i said to dobie yesterday that im not sure if this is caused by bad puppy socialisation or an attack in darcy's earlier life.
 
Cave Canem has said it all. Get advice, go to agility but tell the trainer first - and don't be too downhearted. I suspect an awful lot of us have been through these periods with our dogs. You CAN come out the other side. Don't despair.
 
Hi darling,

You sound very stressed out, what a difficult situation for you all.

You have been very lucky today, firstly that the owners didn't take more of an offence at your dog, and secondly that your dog didn't kill it. I would have been absolutely livid if your dog had drawn blood from mine and you would be paying for the vet trip.

I don't know your area so I don't have any recommendations but you NEED to see a trainer. If you cannot afford it then you need to scrap the agility for the moment and use that money for a trainer.

I understand totally how difficult it is to accept problems in your own dog but you need to act on this right now before your dog kills something or maims someone.

You also need to have your dog muzzled and on a lead in public at all times until you can sort this issue.
 
Petunia said:
You must advise the agility trainer and probably take a long line with you - it would be irresponsible to allow your dog off lead with others, particularly if you have no immediate recall or the control to call it back or put it into the down position immediately.

You need help on all measures of obedience and if you have no control off lead, then your dog should be on the lead. You do not allow a dog to go up to other dogs if you know it can be aggressive. You are lucky the other owner did not take more of an issue with it.

A trainer will show you the tools to work with.

I am sorry I simply do not buy you don't have the time or the money - if you have a dog you have a responsibility and you find both. You have two horses - some people can't even afford one. So you find the funds - perhaps do training initially instead of agility.

Finally, there is nothing wrong with having a dog on a lead - a lunge line allows it more freedom - and until you have ultimate control that is where they should be.
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well i agree with you to some extent. i didnt say i dont have the time however just that money is tight (s it is with everyone) which is why ive put off a problem that has been manageable until now.

i dont actually have any obedience issues with darcy. she's smart girl and is actually very well behaved off the lead, her recall is 100 % and walks to heel at command.
she avoids other dogs for the most part and if id ask her to come away from this one before trouble kicked off she would have -thus i blame myself for that.
what i agree with you 100% about is i should not have let a dog i knew had issues but was hoping from experience she wouldnt have with this one- approach someone else's dog hoping for the best. I have just learnt that you cant assume anything.
 
lula said:
it made no threatening moves or gestures far as i could see.
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We were at a show a few weeks ago and my fella sniffed a JRT. It went banzai at him and snapped, but his ears are very fuzzy and was just covered in drool.
A few minutes later he sniffed a rottie and it went banzai and snapped at him, barked and growled and then started looking for other dogs to fight when he was ignored.
My pup was luckily unphased and I tried not to react and just went on my way, no point in getting too stressy about it.

NOW, in hindsight....
The JRT looked like a jigsaw - it had obviously been ripped to shreds and put back together again some years previously, looking at it more closely. The rottie was grumbling at other dogs throughout the day.
Now I don't know if my dog was giving off cheeky ratbag body language or what, but I should have noticed the JRT's scars, I should have asked if it was OK for my dog to have a sniff. I should also have noticed the rottie's behaviour and his owners should have warned me that he could be a bit iffy with other dogs - we all of us have to be a bit more aware of what our dogs might be trying to tell us. Darcy seems to have been telling you for a while that she needs a bit of help and you owe it to give that to her, not hope it will go away or leave it to chance.

And I am sorry but you DO have a control, if not an obedience issue x
 
Cedars said:
Hi darling,

You sound very stressed out, what a difficult situation for you all.

You have been very lucky today, firstly that the owners didn't take more of an offence at your dog, and secondly that your dog didn't kill it. I would have been absolutely livid if your dog had drawn blood from mine and you would be paying for the vet trip.

I don't know your area so I don't have any recommendations but you NEED to see a trainer. If you cannot afford it then you need to scrap the agility for the moment and use that money for a trainer.

I understand totally how difficult it is to accept problems in your own dog but you need to act on this right now before your dog kills something or maims someone.

You also need to have your dog muzzled and on a lead in public at all times until you can sort this issue.
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i dont think the other owners know exactly who started it as it all tripped off on what was probably a 'look' between them which probably wasnt visible to them so although they're upset and im devestated at what happened they don't out and out blame my dog as their's gave as good as mine.
it was my dog though i saw the 'look' and as CC pointed out and i knew that tension in me and i reached to pull her away before it started might have been the trigger.

anyway, im upset at the dog for letting me down (perhaps unfairly) she has never attacked a small dog before and there's some she out right likes. Im upset at myself for upsetting my neigbors and well..just upset.

I can certainly give up the agility lessons in place of a trainer and after today's little effort thats what i'll do. I just want to find a good by recommdation..maybe the kennel club website
 
I hope you offered to pay for any vet treatment. I had a dog attack mine once, and the lady came round the following day to see how my dog was, and she'd brought cash with her to cover the vet bill, which I thought was a very nice gesture and I really appreciated it.

I'd definitely use a muzzle for your dog in the future - she'll soon get used to it.
 
CaveCanem said:
NOW, in hindsight....
The JRT looked like a jigsaw - it had obviously been ripped to shreds and put back together again some years previously, looking at it more closely. The rottie was grumbling at other dogs throughout the day.
Now I don't know if my dog was giving off cheeky ratbag body language or what, but I should have noticed the JRT's scars, I should have asked if it was OK for my dog to have a sniff. I should also have noticed the rottie's behaviour and his owners should have warned me that he could be a bit iffy with other dogs - we all of us have to be a bit more aware of what our dogs might be trying to tell us. Darcy seems to have been telling you for a while that she needs a bit of help and you owe it to give that to her, not hope it will go away or leave it to chance.

And I am sorry but you DO have a control, if not an obedience issue x
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ha! your description of the JR put smile on my face!

can fear of dogs be conquered do you think CC? does this sound like bad puppy socialisation to you, something more, or impossible to tell>?
 
Lula sorry to hear this, I can only advise what I did with my Darcy, she was never allowed off lead around dogs she didnt know.

I took her to obedience classes purely for the socialisation and she spent the whole hour barking and lunging at other dogs, but each lesson she improved and I used a clicker and treat to look first of all and eventually sniff other dogs without a reaction. I believe my Darcy was under socialised as a pup but her brother is fine so who knows. We now go to agility and dogs run up to her all the time without a reaction. It has taken 9months to get to this point and a lot of hard work. I would not have taken her to agility without doing the previous class but I would be guided by your agility trainer.

A good trainer is a must and do see if your agility trainer can recommend anyone, finally dont over react to your dog,easier said than done I know but just take a deep breath , go and see your neighbours, ask about their dog and is there anything you can do.
 
I really can't answer that Lula, I have never seen the dog and I would not be qualified to say. My older male can be iffy with other dogs and I have had to enter into what is almost a system, with the help of trainers, to help him through it, things like standing in front of him when I see a dog approaching in a way likely to make him kick off, noticing body language, not being afraid to be firm when needed but giving him confidence and leadership, not forcing him into the position of protector, which he found very uncomfortable and stressful and I didn't even notice.
The trainers spotted it almost the very first day I went to class.
It did take a long time and he will never be 100% but I can now walk him without plotting a course and worrying.
He was not well socialised 0-6 months and he is insecure and very susceptible to my tensions and body language. He was never attacked by another dog as far as I know.
Having said that, he was not mistreated, his brother and sisters are exactly the same but make him look like a pussy cat and their mother, well, she should not have been bred from despite all the whistles and bells on her pedigree.
However he is a large, powerful dog and he cannot be allowed to act like that.
 
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the lady did actually say she was surprised as she'd seen my dog on the Green before and it normally just ignores very dog that goes by.


anyway, will talk talk to trainer this aft about the problem. Im not going to go for a muzzle as darcy is hugely ball and stick orientated and would be thoroughly miserable if she couldnt carry one around in her mouth with her, but she'll have to be on the lead around other dogs permanently from now on until we get this sorted, but to the poster who suggested going round to check on the other dog tomorrow and offer some money if needed - thats a good idea. will take that on board
 
Dobiegirl said:
Lula sorry to hear this, I can only advise what I did with my Darcy, she was never allowed off lead around dogs she didnt know.

I took her to obedience classes purely for the socialisation and she spent the whole hour barking and lunging at other dogs, but each lesson she improved and I used a clicker and treat to look first of all and eventually sniff other dogs without a reaction. I believe my Darcy was under socialised as a pup but her brother is fine so who knows. We now go to agility and dogs run up to her all the time without a reaction. It has taken 9months to get to this point and a lot of hard work. I would not have taken her to agility without doing the previous class but I would be guided by your agility trainer.

A good trainer is a must and do see if your agility trainer can recommend anyone, finally dont over react to your dog,easier said than done I know but just take a deep breath , go and see your neighbours, ask about their dog and is there anything you can do.
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dobie thanks xx always in trouble me!
 
If she is ball obsessed, I take it you always have one on your person and do tease her and shove it in her gob whenever you see another dog approaching, I do this with my young dog if he gets gobby (he shouts at other dogs if they ignore him, and ignores dogs when they bark at him. Little weirdo...)
As DG says, she could be an ideal candidate for clicker training if you have not tried this already.
 
CaveCanem said:
... not being afraid to be firm when needed but giving him confidence and leadership, not forcing him into the position of protector, which he found very uncomfortable and stressful and I didn't even notice.
The trainers spotted it almost the very first day I went to class.
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yes im aware of this too.
Im quite a confident person and have heard Ceaser Milan (is that a bad topic!? ;) ) say this. I do try to make sure im aware of my body langauge and when other dogs approach us ive noticed Darcy sometimes looking over her shoulder to see my reaction to the situation. If im nervous, tense, then she thinks she should be too hence i try to be as relaxed and not anticipate trouble.

i just wondered sometimes if my grabbing her and putting her on the lead when other dogs approached made the whole situation more tense and of a big deal. she'll ignore other dogs and has been off the lead all summer passing dogs without incident - as long as they ignore her.
This has just set us back and im sad about todays events. Thought we were getting through this.

oh well. trainer it is.
 
CaveCanem said:
If she is ball obsessed, I take it you always have one on your person and do tease her and shove it in her gob whenever you see another dog approaching, I do this with my young dog if he gets gobby (he shouts at other dogs if they ignore him, and ignores dogs when they bark at him. Little weirdo...)
As DG says, she could be an ideal candidate for clicker training if you have not tried this already.
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i havent tried clicker tbh.
see the reason ive left this problem so long (ive had her 8mnths) thinking it was a small problem i could deal with myself is that she does't shout at other dogs, she'll ignore them so by keeping her on the lead and away from other dogs there's not really a problem.. except for today when im stupidly optimistic and think she's approaching a dog nicely and maybe they'll be friends cos he's only little.. my fault

so as long as i keep her on the lead and away from other dogs the problem doesnt exist because she wont strain to get at them or make a pain of herself..
..Except she'd still scared of dogs and the problem hasnt gone away its just hiding.
 
Do you have any friends with well socialised, nice dogs that you could lead walk with? Might help build her confidence. At least she is quiet- mine screams like some demented banshee!
 
yes lex we do, there's a sweet old guy round the corner from me with a little pimped out shitzu (diamonte harness, poodle-puffed up hair do, all the shizzle, looks bloomin ridiculous but nevermind!)

darcy adores him. i think cos he's tiny.
she doesnt see little dogs as the threat she seems to see big ones as. she goes nose to nose with this one without any problems which is why i stupidly allowed her to greet the terrier this morning, thinking the more dogs she interacts with the better.

the dog this morning though was a bitch..wonder if that made the difference?

will report back after agility class.

she's such a lovely dog though, i dont want all my neighbors to think she's trouble when they see her as believe it or not they all say what a lovely well behaved dog she is when not killing people's cherished pets. :o
 
Dont beat yourself up whats done is done, and dont see putting her back on the lead as a backward step, just use it as an opportunity to get out there and look at as many dogs as you can. If you look on youtube there are some great ideas about desensitising fearful dogs.

Good luck for tonight and let us know how you get on.
 
Bitches fight worse than dogs usually.

Re positive reinforcement, it works with some dogs, not with others, did nothing for my older dog, if anything he appreciated me being more firm with him, no, you CAN'T do that, yes, now you have STOPPED doing that, it is a good thing, have a biscuit - any ambiguity and he was just lost. It really does depend on the dog.

Cesar Millan is a hot topic :p
For me leadership isn't shouting or scruffing or rolling or dominance or bullying, it is letting the dog know through your body language and your voice and your actions, that you, dog, must stop that behaviour - now, it is OK, you don't have to worry, I will take care of this.
 
katielou said:
Just to add you need a behaviorist not a trainer. And make sure they are positive reinforcement based.

Where about are you?
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Disagree. A trainer will do as well these days as mostly they understand behaviour. I have previously trained and have done behaviourist courses as well as control of dangerous dogs - most other reputable trainers do. A behaviourist or "whisperer" may charge you more to do exactly the same as a trainer because that is what they call themselves.

You say Darcy is 100% recall - actually clearly she isn't. That isn't a criticism because I don't believe many dogs are in certain circumstances, which is why you back it up with distance commands. Even an aggressive dog in the down automatically becomes subservient. If you have that control, then a muzzle isn't necessary and you have the toys and treats as your armoury.

It may be that Darcy is actually fearful of other dogs or, as a bitch, she feels she may have to set ground rules which other dogs may not understand. My bitch is certainly like that given half a chance.

The fact you are worried about it and realise you need to address it is full credit to you. You clearly love your dog and hate the thought of people thinking ill of her. Training with an intelligent dog like yours is huge fun and takes the hassle and stress out of what happened to you. If you say whereabouts you are, might be able to suggest someone who could help you.
 
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