Dare I say it... Parelli?

If you want a bond with your horse then go look up Hart's Horsemanship. It's a heck of a lot kinder than clunking your horse under the chin with a bull clip or tying one leg up to put a bridle on!!

Parelli aims to be horsemanship-by-numbers and is well suited for those who really don't have a clue round horses or any empathy with them. It can be extremely aggressive and,as someone else said, seems to result in shut-down and disinterested horses. I far prefer the fact that my horses think for themselves and trust us enough to offer a behaviour in moments when nothing much else is happening.. usually this is just a step back almost asking the question 'What's next?'

I could say an awful lot more, but better I don't!
 
I've never known of anyone that does Parelli withholding water, personally.

Someone else commented on barefoot, I'm not sure what that has got to do with Parelli either?!

Like many other things; rapping, putting chilli on a bit to "improve" the horses head carriage ... I would never not do showjumping or dressage as a discipline, because somebody I once knew trained with an instructor who 'apparently' used these methods.

Neither am I sure you can tar a whole organisation because 'one instructor had their head up their bottom' - one of the rudest liveries show jumps, does that mean I'm never going to entertain show jumping because of one persons attitude?!

These threads of always amuse it amazes me the amount of Chines whispers and half truths there are flying around ... But I guess the same could be said for anything, in the horsey world?!
 
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RIDMagic said:
I've heard about the Parelli games involving a horse standing on a box or bouncing a ball alongside... some people think that's ridiculous. I think if the horse doesn't dislike it and it engages his mind onto something different, what's the problem?

Incidentally, I have called one of the Monty/Kelly Recommended Associates and they were ridiculously expensive. So that was a no no.
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Well done for considering everything so carefully :-)

Re: standing on a box - absolutely! If you and your horse find stuff like that fun, great! But you don't need parelli to make fun games - don't confuse the end results you see in parelli (riding at liberty, standing on a box) with what parelli actually is. Parelli is the training method of achieving those things, and it's possible to teach a horse to do any of those things in all manner of ways, some of them brutal, some of them fun. I do all those things but with a clicker or just praise or whatever my horse likes (and it's also free :-)!)
 
Thats interesting. SpringFeather, can I ask specifically what is it about the early Parelli stuff that doesn't sit well with you? I really don't know much about the actual techniques so am interested to know what it is that is controversial. Thanks. It's also interesting that a few people say that Parelli trained horses have no spark, as I thought the whole aim is to have a happy horse that wants to work with you as a partnership. Do you think this is down to the methods being misinterpreted and misused, or the fault of the methods themselves? Also I'm shocked about the withholding water thing! Did they really advise this?!
 
NativePonyLover said:
I've never known of anyone that does Parelli withholding water, personally. If you need to do that, you aren't a real horsemanship regardless of what method you choose to do IMHO.

Someone else commented on barefoot, I'm not sure what that has got to do with Parelli either?!

Like many other things; rapping, putting chilli on a bit to "improve" the horses head carriage ... I would never not do showjumping or dressage as a discipline, because somebody I once knew trained with an instructor who 'apparently' used these methods.

Neither am I sure you can tar a whole organisation because 'one instructor had their head up their bottom' - one of the rudest liveries show jumps, does that mean I'm never going to entertain show jumping because of one persons attitude?!

These threads of always amuse it amazes me the amount of Chines whispers and half truths there are flying around ... But I guess the same could be said for anything, in the horsey world?!
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No Chinese whispers involved in the whole sorry incident of the stallion that was afraid of being bridled it was all there to see on YouTube that was my indroduction to parelli that's the great man himself handling the horse that's all I needed to see and I would never put a penny into their coffers .
 
I too see the video of the bridle incident, funnily cant find anything anymore on that?
Yes they advise withholding water to assert leadership.
 
RIDMagic said:
Thats interesting. SpringFeather, can I ask specifically what is it about the early Parelli stuff that doesn't sit well with you? I really don't know much about the actual techniques so am interested to know what it is that is controversial. Thanks. It's also interesting that a few people say that Parelli trained horses have no spark, as I thought the whole aim is to have a happy horse that wants to work with you as a partnership. Do you think this is down to the methods being misinterpreted and misused, or the fault of the methods themselves? Also I'm shocked about the withholding water thing! Did they really advise this?!
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I think it's a combination of things really. Yes for sure it is people interpretation of what the techniques are. Someone reading a book or even watching DVDs can't possibly get the same results when following 'orders' so to speak, as they would were the trainer there in person and able to see subtle movements from the horse and inaccurate cues from the handler. And they can't possibly get the same results from each individual horse. With horses there is no 'one size fits all'. Dare I say it but with the right minded horse and a very knowledgeable handler, some aspects of Parelli can definitely help the handler get top notch stuff out of the horse, but it's always in combination with using other traditional methods (which many parts of Parelli actually are, they just have more of a spin to them, and very often have far more harsh consequences for the horse if it doesn't comply). I am not anti, nor pro Parelli. Actually I'm not anti or pro any one single training method. I've trained horses for so long that I have my own method which works for me, but even with my own method it is tailored for each individual horse, so there are some things I'll do with one horse but I'd never consider doing with a different minded horse. So some of the actual methods Parelli endorses are absolute no-no's for me, under any circumstances, some are fine by me but I use them in a more traditional sense of the training.

The more advanced stuff really isn't suitable for the generic riding horse IMO it's for ranch working horses and I've seen it put to good use, but then again, it's really just a variation on traditional methods and good horsemanship which brings out the exemplary work I see with some independently working cattle horses who have gone beyond the yo-yo game (which really seems to be all I ever see inexperienced Parelli people do, and boy do they do it to distraction!) A couple of the games are worthwhile exercises but again they really aren't Parelli-invented, they're just common sense things that most people do with their horses without a second thought. Parelli just has put his own twist on things, well Linda has. I remember way back when before they both became such huge names. Pat is a decent rancher and was a very accomplished rider. Linda is a very good marketer and a dreadful rider. In my opinion.
 
RIDMagic said:
It's also interesting that a few people say that Parelli trained horses have no spark, as I thought the whole aim is to have a happy horse that wants to work with you as a partnership. Do you think this is down to the methods being misinterpreted and misused, or the fault of the methods themselves? Also I'm shocked about the withholding water thing! Did they really advise this?!
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The thing with Pareli is that there's a lot of repeating of negative reinforcement - e.g. the seven 'games' are actually just repeating the same movements over and over again. That's why people say that a lot of 'drilling' goes on. Some horses find that engaging, but as the only reward for them is the release of pressure, many get bored and switched off.

There are some FASCINATING quotes from pat himself in which he does indeed advocate sometimes removing water from horses. Absolutely shocking. If you dig back far enough in this forum and can be bothered to read through the many pages of PArelli discussion (quite interesting reading actually, a lot of it!) you'll find direct quotes and links.
 
Zero000000 I have to ask, did that head up own arse instructor's name begin with S?

As for 'spark' the horse of the one i know lost that a long time ago. He is very well behaved, so that's nice.

Parelli incrementally pressure on horses, the levels are: air, hair, skin, muscle bone. The quicker you get to bone the sooner they recognise the 'air' cues. I learnt that from my friend :(. i don't see her anymore.
 
I stand corrected on the water thing then (I've not looked through the links or anything, but happy to hold my hands up if he said it & admit I was wrong!) - it's not something I'd be comfortable doing & not an element I'd look to incoporporate in my horse owning or horse training. But, to be fair, it's not something that has ever been so much as suggested by my instructor or any other local Parelli people I've met.

I'm just a pleasure rider with a 14hh scruffy pony wwith no big goals, other than to have fun together - I'm probably never going to meet Linda or Pat, but all I can go on is the teachings & experiences of my local instructor & Parelli group instructors & members, which I've found sympathetic & understanding to the horse, which sadly hasn't always been key with other instructors I've come across with Pete, in our journey together.

I guess for me, it's still been the turning point for my relationship with Pete but aware it's not for everyone - it's just the 'it's the only people to scared to ride' and similar comments are so far from being true in my experience, I obviously want to share my experience of it ... Without coming across as an evangelical, hopefully! Plus, I have a cold, so feeling grotty, so apologies if it has come across like that!

I can just remember what is like, having felt like I'd exhausted every other avenue & still Pete was unhappy & I'd come home in tears every night - if posting my experience of Parelli can help even 1 person consider it ( or bits of it) as an option, then it's worth posting. As I'm so far from that sad, frustrated person with an equally unhappy & sad horse in less than a year & I'm glad I took that chance.

OP - I will respond to your PM later tonight, I find it easier to type long replies on my laptop instead of my phone!
 
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Interesting answers. I do bits of everything but started off with the parelli stuff after buying a horse that had been 'broken' mentally by 'usual' training methods, he just can't cope with pressure.

So I'm not sure you can say that parelli ruins horses...it may be that the owners choosing to go down that line are already dealing with damaged goods! I do agree it is now expensive, over marketed and a cult almost. I still use the games as a means of testing where holes are in my training. The methods work for me, I'm safe my horse is happy and, yes, I do ride! However when things aren't going well under tack I can usually find the problem safely with ground work.

If you look carefully at Richard maxwell and Kelly marks, they all do very similar things just with different branding. In fact traditional techniques carried out properly are also the same, just without the branding. Think about breathing the movement (air), using leg (skin), kick (muscle) and then a stick (bone)... It's the same.

I'd say that parelli techniques can't ruin horses, only people can, its the same with any training programme.

Yes the horse could get bored but I use the ground work alongside schooling, hacking, competing etc. lack of spark is certainly NOT a problem, can easily get his play-drive up, usually just by lifting my own energy and thinking fun :)
 
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RIDMagic said:
My number one aim is to build a bond with my horse. I want her to trust me and to want to work with me and spend time with me.
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That will happen if you just spend time doing anything with your horse, it doesn't have to Parelli specific. My horse follows me around (she didn't when I first got her) but I've spent loads of time every time just playing games with her, dabbled with clicker training, circus tricks, agility, in hand dressage, it didn't really matter what I did it's the fact I was having fun with my horse with no purpose other than to enjoy the time I spent with her
 
ridefast said:
That will happen if you just spend time doing anything with your horse, it doesn't have to Parelli specific. My horse follows me around (she didn't when I first got her) but I've spent loads of time every time just playing games with her, dabbled with clicker training, circus tricks, agility, in hand dressage, it didn't really matter what I did it's the fact I was having fun with my horse with no purpose other than to enjoy the time I spent with her
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This :)
It's really good just to play games with your horse and teach them stuff.
Even doing fun things to get them better at things they're bad at. For instance, me and Ned did some painting the other day. He used to be really bad at lifting his hooves, so I figured I would train him with the end goal of painting his hooves and then him putting them on a canvas. Of course the real end goal was to give him better manners, but giving yourself a FUN task is really good.
We also do bombproofing, which I think really cemented our relationship. He learned to trust me that the scary things weren't going to hurt him and that I would keep him safe.
Walking out in hand was good too.

Whatever you do, good luck!! Wish you and your horse the best :)
 
I have seen a horse ruined by Parelli first hand, but then again I have seen horses ruined by harsh 'traditional' methods too. I just think it's a lot of money for a lot of bumf, and you would be better putting that money into lessons with someone who has successfully produced dressage horses.

The real breakthrough for me was reading into biomechanics and classical dressage, I had a basic idea of what I should do, but these explained why. The classical approaches to groundwork are fascinating, and I have to say groundwork made a huge difference with my youngster - he had no brakes - much more than I was expecting, as it clarified things for him.

The main things that helped me bond with my horse (he was very nervous of people) was hours of grooming, being patient when he was upset, and fun hacks. I don't think waving ropes at him etc would have made a jot of difference. As long as you are kind but consistent, the trust will come.
 
Building a bond with a horse comes down to good old common sense and understanding a horse is a horse. not a machine but a living breathing thinking animal.stick and tricks dont build a bond. clear defined consistent rules do. understanding that a horse doesnt think like you do builds a bond. I like some of monty roberts some of micheal peace some of carl hesteretc but i have read and digested but ultimatly worked with my horse. i broke rules eg when first got her when showing her scary things if she wanted to turn and walked opposite direction i allowed her with a pat kind word then back again until she realised it was ok . no one would hurt and infact i didnt hurt her either. result. oh i was criticised but being a battered mare i needed her trust and force or tricks wouldnt get that and that mare eventually followed me half blind past anything and that didnt take parelli just a bit of thought and common sense. dont do it please. build your bond on giid fair consistent rules. allow mistakes as we all learn from mistakes. ok thats my thoughts and hey stood me well for many years :)
 
cheeryplatypus said:
If you look carefully at Richard maxwell and Kelly marks, they all do very similar things just with different branding. In fact traditional techniques carried out properly are also the same, just without the branding. Think about breathing the movement (air), using leg (skin), kick (muscle) and then a stick (bone)... It's the same.

.
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I don't think it is the same, these levels of pressure that are used in parelli are used in the 'games'. How much fun will the horse be having playing these games if the owner goes up to muscle and bone levels because they cannot change the cues? Other trainers say break it down, ask for it differently, explain it better, not beat it until it gets it right. And if they don't, I think they're every bit as bad as parelli. We should be able to teach a horse to back up or move over without resorting to controlled violence and if we can't, are we really horsemen?

There are two things that occupy my thoughts with regard to parelli (at the moment).. The first is the rope circling where the horse must not break pace and the owner stands in the middle of the circle not interacting with the horse. To me, that just seems rude, hardly a partnership and so many horses that you see doing this are so listless and desultory its heartbreaking to watch.

The other thing that concerns me looks really clever but I wonder what it does to the horse's mind. This is where the horse is backed up by holding a few strands of tail hair. The only time I've seen a horse take hold of another's tail and back it up is when a recently gelded stallion beat the crap out of a gelding. It totally owned the gelding who was squealing and unable to get away. This was in no way a game. If that's the only time a horse does this, when it is completely dominating another horse, can we be sure that emulating this even with a different mindset (except is it really, the parellis do like to dominate horses), is not also felt as keenly by our own horses?
 
I haven't read the replies - but I have started watching the videos and have found some gems in there that have been really helpful. There is a load of babling in the videos to get to the good stuff but I think its worth it.

Like anything its a tool and the more tools you have in your bag (provide you can use them corectly) the beeter you are.
 
a parelli halter made my wonderfully behaved young horse so sore that he started rearing, Its taken me a year to get it out of him! and because of that horrible halter, we are much further behind in his training than I had hoped to be! I would never use one again! has put me off trying any parelli work now
 
NativePonyLover said:
I've never known of anyone that does Parelli withholding water, personally.

Someone else commented on barefoot, I'm not sure what that has got to do with Parelli either?!

Like many other things; rapping, putting chilli on a bit to "improve" the horses head carriage ... I would never not do showjumping or dressage as a discipline, because somebody I once knew trained with an instructor who 'apparently' used these methods.

Neither am I sure you can tar a whole organisation because 'one instructor had their head up their bottom' - one of the rudest liveries show jumps, does that mean I'm never going to entertain show jumping because of one persons attitude?!

These threads of always amuse it amazes me the amount of Chines whispers and half truths there are flying around ... But I guess the same could be said for anything, in the horsey world?!
Click to expand...

It's not Chinese whispers though, it comes from the horses mouth himself, if you'll excuse the pun. He actually writes it down for people to follow.
If I had a better Internet connection id find the article where he recommends people withold water to assert their authority over their horse.
The man has some crazy views.
And the Catwalk video?? That's hardly Chinese whispers either.......

Your analogy is only correct in that Parelli shouldn't put people off natural horsemanship as a whole, same as rollkur shouldn't put people off dressage as a whole, tbh.
 
Patterdale said:
It's not Chinese whispers though, it comes from the horses mouth himself, if you'll excuse the pun. He actually writes it down for people to follow.
If I had a better Internet connection id find the article where he recommends people withold water to assert their authority over their horse.
The man has some crazy views.
And the Catwalk video?? That's hardly Chinese whispers either.......

Your analogy is only correct in that Parelli shouldn't put people off natural horsemanship as a whole, same as rollkur shouldn't put people off dressage as a whole, tbh.
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The mans a brute, nothing more, nothing less. Their videos are whitewashed with soppy music to conceal the reality of his training methods. They claim to promote a 'Natural Bond/Partnership' yet what kind of person withholds water from or or bullies a Partner into submission?.... And as for Linda's treatment of the blind horse...
 
You'll see my next post, actually going back on what I said - as has already been pointed out, I was wrong & I hold my hands up to that point as I now understand, he has said that. You'll see also, I don't condone that either - but nor has my personal experience involved anyone I've come into contact with that does Parelli, ever suggesting that as being acceptable. And that's all I can go by, my personal experience - I guess you decide what you like from it & what you don't & use it accordingly.

For me, it has still been amazing & I'm glad I took the chance to do Parelli, as it's benefitted my relationship with my horse immensely :) X
 
kerrieberry2 said:
a parelli halter made my wonderfully behaved young horse so sore that he started rearing, Its taken me a year to get it out of him! and because of that horrible halter, we are much further behind in his training than I had hoped to be! I would never use one again! has put me off trying any parelli work now
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Okay I'm sorry but I have to pick you up on this. Your USE of the rope halter caused the young horse to be sore and start rearing. A Parelli rope halter is no different from a generic rope halter this side of the Pond except it's slightly thinner rope used. Everyone I know uses them, both experienced and inexperienced people, without causing horses to be sore, resulting in the horse rearing. A rope halter is a tool (or at my farm a very handy piece of kit that hangs on every hitching rail because they can be put on any size of horse to aid catching up for farrier or vet or whatever) and sometimes it's used for training purposes, and if it is being used for training then it's like any training tool which should be used correctly by someone who knows what they are doing, not willy nilly.
 
Parelli is nothing short of abuse
[video=youtube_share;5gf7w_1ifus]http://youtu.be/5gf7w_1ifus[/video]
and who can forget the poor one eyed horse
[video=youtube_share;xIjDkqkNXFw]http://youtu.be/xIjDkqkNXFw[/video]

OP I posted Herbies story on one of your other threads. Well he came from a Parelli home. I highly dought he had most of his problems before Parelli as his old owner paid over £1500 for just him and sold him to me 6 months later for £550 including all tack and rugs (his saddle alone was worth nearly £400, it was brand new)
For those saying it's not the method just the trainers. The people in the top two videos are the Parellis themselfes :mad:
Anyway most know how anti parelli I am and this thread will run and run, this post will be quickly lost in the either ;)
(Oh and sorry if vids have already been posted but I couldn't be arsed to read the whole thread :o )
You can achieve a bond without Parelli or any other natural horsmanship method infact.
[video=youtube_share;bFxUNgKDCR4]http://youtu.be/bFxUNgKDCR4[/video]


I have known people who do parelli and swear by it. Personly it's not for me and through Herbie I have seen the damage it can do if used on the wrong horse.
 
All training schemes have their faults the best way of creating a great bond with your horse is to spend time and use common sense to pick out the very best of all trainers ideas. I must admit that Max to me is the one whose training evolves as new ideas and new perceptions strike him. He is very adaptable and thinks outside the box however I am certain there will be people who dont like his methods too. Any strictly regimented training method will result in some horses being shut down.
I am a firm believer in doing a little of everything with my horses they dont spend hours walking or trotting in circles. My 4 year (horror upon horror) was backed in Spring and after only a few weeks was walking, trotting, cantering, galloping and jumping. She is forward going andl oves life loves nothing better than a good long hack with plenty of galloping and jumping and is a keen x country pony who is unfazed by anything. In respect of her age she does only work twice or three times a week but when she does work she does it all. I did try to teach a young rider on her but she soon got fed up and bored with the hour in the school just walking and trotting about. I try to make her life fun. She is a bit too bonded with people today she was so annoyed at the farrier not doing her feet while he was doing the others she sat on him pushing her bum under the horse he was trimming so he would give her some attention
 
I totally agree that there are some Parelli horror stories out there, just as there are horror dressage stories.....but the basic principles, techniques and responsibilities that I learned from Parelli back in 1998 and onwards for about 5 years are excellent. I am sure if the critics would delve a bit further they would agree with the ideas put forward at that time. Since then the attitude of some Parelli people (Linda and Pat in particular!) have caused many people to walk away from the system - including myself. However I still use their basic techniques and ideas which, as Pat said at the time 'are so old they are new again'.....Many of the things I learned as a child in the Pony Club system (I passed my A certificate at 16 years old to give you an idea of how competent I was at the time) were brought to mind, put into a logical sequence and I was given a reason for doing it.....If you can get hold of the original levels 1 and 2 with the vhs tapes they are worth their weight in gold!! From what I have heard the new material where it is divided into 'savvys' is supposed to be good but I wouldn't bother with the Linda levels (where the blind in one eye horse is not given a chance by Linda!) or anything much in between. Perhaps audit a clinic first and see if it is for you. I must say I have watched a few of Kelly Marks tv programmes and was not impressed.....I investigated Monty Roberts before I tried PNH and although join up worked just like he said I did not want to continue by putting on a bridle. Parelli starts at the very beginning with getting the horse confident in the human and teaches the human the most important basic techniques, like starting as light as possible, rewarding every try, the difference between steady pressure and rhythmic pressure, respond to pressure....
 
Unfortunately, I have never seen any Parelli that didn't leave me feeling disturbed. I've encountered a few people on yards doing it and it was so sad to see the horses desperately trying to do the right thing but being stressed and confused in the process.
The only time I ever walked out of a demonstration was at the NEC when 2 beautiful horses were in a state of high alert and although doing as asked, the handler was rough and unfair. A year later I saw another Parelli demonstration and thought I'd be better prepared for what would happen. I wasn't, I felt sick.
The clips on Utube with Linda or Pat are disturbing. The infamous hitting the blind horse repeatedly on the head was unforgiveable, the Catwalk incident was another fiasco.

Nasty stuff.
 
Alyth said:
but the basic principles, techniques and responsibilities that I learned from Parelli back in 1998 and onwards for about 5 years are excellent. I am sure if the critics would delve a bit further they would agree with the ideas put forward at that time. ..
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Delve a little deeper? Yep, done that. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I don't understand it. In fact, it might actually mean I understand what is going on a lot better than many of those doing it because I haven't listened to the psychobabble that's used to cover up the violence that is advocated in this system.

In what civilised society would it be deemed acceptable to beat a horse? One would hope 'none'. But the parelli system first teaches its students that hitting their horse (getting down to bone level) is not only acceptable but advisable because the quicker you get down to bone the quicker it will respond to air level. My parelli instructor friend took her horse to a clinic, this was an early clinic before she decided that she wanted to be an instructor. A group of women and their horses were learning the games. One woman could not get her horse to respond and produce the required movement. She had not yet got to actually hitting her horse with the stick, not even lightly. The others, including my friend, who had all completed the exercise were becoming bored and frustrated waiting for this woman to get her horse to obey and to quote my friend "we were all stood there thinking "just whack it"".

Wives who have been beaten cringe when their husband raises his fist. Because they know what comes next.

Instead of hitting our horses, we could emply our brains and explain things in a way that they do understand. For instance we all know that to get our horse to move over we can give a signal, perhaps a light touch on the flank, and if this does not work we can turn their head towards us, thus letting biomechanics work in our favour. The horse then learns what that touch means. We don't need to hit them with a stick. If we want to ask them to turn without touching them we can add a cue before the touch, they then recognise that as a new cue.

Inflicting pain in order to train tricks should never be acceptable. The equestrian world is lightyears behind other animal trainers in this respect.

FWIW, those people who are accepted onto the parelli instructor program are those that have no qualms about inflicting violence and pain on horses in order to produce the results. Those that won't do this cannot go through the program.

Is it ever okay to inflict pain? I think so. If you need to defend yourself. Or if you've find someone who enjoys a good thrashing .... In all other instances, why not use our brains? Is it because it's much easier to learn a system by rote? In more recent years the parellis have said that the early levels of their program do not train horses, they train the owners. I would agree with that. They give us an excuse to beat our horses if we're not getting the response we want and best of all, we get to call it something else and convince ourselves that that's not what we're doing.

Why can we beat horses? They are prey animals which means that they not only don't make a noise when they're in pain but they, on the whole, tend not to use their 'fight' option as a response. They are adaptable and amenable, perfect for us to manipulate in fact. And as predators we're all too ready to exploit those characteristics that make the horse the creature we love and adore.

Next time you pick up your stick (whatever you wish to call it) having decided that pain is the answer, ask yourself this "can I explain this a different way?"
 
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