***Daughter and Dolly - hay and outlines!!!***

[DipseyDeb]

OutWHAT???

Kids should be bombing round on ponies, doing the bending race and jumping old ladies shopping bags in the park. Their ponies should be hairy little oiks who drop their shoulders once in a while to teach the child how to roll properly in the event of a fall.

Outline

TBH Outline was something I never heard of until my twenties (I'm showing my age).

I don't like hay nets (prefer to feed from the floor), but only because of the danger they pose.

Sometimes you can get wrapped up in what others expect from a child and pony, and forget about the FUN they're meant to be having. At this age it's about learning to bond and make friends.

If you want outline then that will come with time and patience and experience. It's not something that is felt naturally to a child. You can, of course force the issue, but that's a whole other thread.

I'll have a caramel bunny

Brilliantly put!!!!

 

[redmone]

We have the same issue here...sigh.."head set" ....nothing to do with longitudinal suppleness/relaxation or accpetance of bit by connecting over the back...just get the head down

It is in the Adult Ammie classes as well

Shame isn't it. I think it puts people off a little.

My daughter has kept going regardless, but have to say, it's started to grind on us a little bit now. As I said above, we accept that it's true, and that it has to be said. But I've got one test sheet where out of about 12 boxes, honestly, it mentions the outline in about 8. We get the message!!!! I just think for kids (and perhaps novices), that's a bit off putting. I think I'm going to try somewhere new for her for dressage, rather than her stop doing it. I think it really does depend on the judge.

One of the best score sheets she had (and I mean in comments, not in marks) had a good few empty boxes. But the comments the judge did make were either spot on or very constructive. Judge actually helped hand out the sheets and expanded on her thoughts to each individual which was lovely. A couple of people mentioned that they thought she hadn't written enough. Judge said "well at intro level, I just want you to be accurate, good energy and smiling!" - maybe some wouldn't be impressed with that, but I thought it was lovely!

 

[redmone]

Brilliantly put!!!!

Agreed!!!

Sorry, I couldn't quote on tablet last night otherwise would have said the same myself!!!

I am amazed at the focus on it from a young age, and I don't really agree with it. It reminds me of when judges place fat ponies highest - I think anything that encourages bad practices (especially to novice owners/riders) is not a good thing.

We're lucky that we have such a supportive yard with good instructors to guide us in the right direction, and of course, HHO! What if I'd kept Dolly at home and didn't know any of this? Would I be tempted to strap her head down with gadgets to get daughter rosettes? I'd like to think not, but power without knowledge is not a good thing.

Bombing about, cones, flags.....sounds like our weekends!!!

The current game is weaving round cones in canter trying to stand our riding crop up in the cones......or jumping over the cones which usually happens instead!

 

[redmone]

They looks so brilliant together!

It's so refreshing hearing someone not hung up on an outline. I've often found when people stop worrying about where the head is eventually it will drop. She's doing such a good job it will come in time.

Thanks Koko!!!

 

[redmone]

As a small adult I have ridden a few children's show ponies recently which had the opposite problem of overbending or having their nose behind the verticle. I don't know it for a fact but suspect this has been partially caused by overuse of gadgets. I think overbending can be a worse problem from a safety point of view, as if something goes wrong, there is nothing in front of the saddle to support you- or that's what it can feel like, anyway and I don't especially like it.

No major thoughts on haynets, except I do think it is more natural for horses to eat the majority of their food from ground level, but if she gets a lot of turnout with grass/hay on the floor (not necessarily at this time of year but in general) then I think a haynet whilst she is in won't do her any harm.

ETA: She is an awesome looking pony and your daughter is obviously tallented.

Thank you!

forget the outline comments and let your daughter have fun. the outline will come when she has learnt how to ride her forwards to the contact and is strong enough to do it until then the pony is fine as she is. one thing that may be easier than getting the outline would perhaps be to ask for more bend (whole body not just neck) as that would loosen the neck and body and even with the nose out a bit would give a nicer impression especially on circles. the alternative would be to send the pony here for a few years schooling and I could play ponies

Only if I can send daughter as well......

I couldn't agree more!!! Your daughter has one of the better all round postures I've seen on here - right on the money mouth, hands, elbow and good body in movement ( first photo ) may be toes in and up a touch ( but what the hell!) - sweet pony too.

Forget the dressage comments ( they're all written out the night before anyway!) and go in for achievement classes - you know the sort - jumping over things faster and faster or putting flags in a bucket - looks just the ticket to me!

Many many thanks, that's a lovely thing to say! Thank you!! x xx

 

[redmone]

Should I be really brave and put her dressage video on here.......

 

[Kat]

Redmone, I think it would really help you and daughter to read up on the scales of training. It would help you and daughter to remember that "outline" is the product of forwardness, straightness, bend, etc.

In the meantime just keep in mind that the hind leg must be tracking up before you even think about where dolly's head is. So you need to work to get that activity from behind first and then providing a nice steady but giving contact is there the head will follow.

Also bear in mind that the judge is thinking about the scales of training too.

The judge has to tell daughter what she has to do to get the higher marks, so a comment like "nose poking" means that the accuracy, straightness, impulsion etc are there and the only thing preventing her getting a higher mark is the outline. If the outline was in place she'd probably find there was another comment, and if the outline was achieved using gadgets then the comments would reflect the pony being behind the bit or not through from behind. The fact that the comments are all about outline is positive, it means she is progressing well and establishing things in the right order and doesn't necessarily mean that the judge is obsessed with where the head is.

 

[pardalis]

Yes!

 

[redmone]

Redmone, I think it would really help you and daughter to read up on the scales of training. It would help you and daughter to remember that "outline" is the product of forwardness, straightness, bend, etc.

In the meantime just keep in mind that the hind leg must be tracking up before you even think about where dolly's head is. So you need to work to get that activity from behind first and then providing a nice steady but giving contact is there the head will follow.

Also bear in mind that the judge is thinking about the scales of training too.

The judge has to tell daughter what she has to do to get the higher marks, so a comment like "nose poking" means that the accuracy, straightness, impulsion etc are there and the only thing preventing her getting a higher mark is the outline. If the outline was in place she'd probably find there was another comment, and if the outline was achieved using gadgets then the comments would reflect the pony being behind the bit or not through from behind. The fact that the comments are all about outline is positive, it means she is progressing well and establishing things in the right order and doesn't necessarily mean that the judge is obsessed with where the head is.

That's a very good perspective to look at this from, and one I'd not considered. Thank you.

I get what you mean - the judge isn't looking for bad points, but rather advising on where to go next. That could be seen as a compliment. And I suppose she's only had the barrage of "outline" comments since Dolly has been going nicer for her.

Thank you.

 

[redmone]

Yes!

Nah, my bottle's gone!

 

[Singing Dawg]

I've not read all the thread as it seemed to be turning into a debate about haynets. I think Dollys conformation is not condusive to her flexing and dropping her nose. The pics in your opening post show her to be very thick under her neck and thick where her head joins the neck. It will be a very long slow job to turn this round. Can you have someone lunge her or learn how to do it yourself, using one of the gadgets that will help get the pony in a good outline and starting to flex that thick underneck? Or is there a small adult who could start to tackle the problem. Do bear in mind she has been building up this "underneck" all her working life and there is no overnight cure, if anyone tries to tell you there is, they are wrong, you cannot change muscle like that quickly, and whether you can ever remove the thickness round her throat remains to be seen.

Anyway, now you will think i'm a total beast for saying these things but I like your pony and your daughter and have enjoyed reading about and seeing some of their amazing progress. Lucky child to have such a dedicated parent!

 

[redmone]

I've not read all the thread as it seemed to be turning into a debate about haynets. I think Dollys conformation is not condusive to her flexing and dropping her nose. The pics in your opening post show her to be very thick under her neck and thick where her head joins the neck. It will be a very long slow job to turn this round. Can you have someone lunge her or learn how to do it yourself, using one of the gadgets that will help get the pony in a good outline and starting to flex that thick underneck? Or is there a small adult who could start to tackle the problem. Do bear in mind she has been building up this "underneck" all her working life and there is no overnight cure, if anyone tries to tell you there is, they are wrong, you cannot change muscle like that quickly, and whether you can ever remove the thickness round her throat remains to be seen.

Anyway, now you will think i'm a total beast for saying these things but I like your pony and your daughter and have enjoyed reading about and seeing some of their amazing progress. Lucky child to have such a dedicated parent!

Hahaha I don't think you're a total beast!! You are dead right, and that's what instructors have also said. It's a long hard slog, reversing a lifetime of, as you say, building that neck up!

I have a theory of where that neck came from. We found a photo online of Dolly from before we owned her - she had almost a concave neck! Looked very much like muscle wastage and lack of any sort of fat or muscle tone. When she came to us, she was poorly schooled and had a crest. My theory is that between the concave neck and the crest was a period of gorging in a field, where she got fat and out of shape. (this is supported also by my theory of why she is so defensive around food - I think she once didn't have enough food, then had too much all at once)

One thing interested me last night. Whilst I was inspecting Dolly's haynet, the hook on the wall and pondering the advice I'd been given on here, I looked at her rather thick chucky neck and gave the underneath of it a prod.

To my surprise, it wobbled - where before it was rock hard - well, at least firm. That's got to help?? As you say, if she's got such a thick neck, there's no way physically Dolly can drop her head - even if her back end was doing what it should! But if it's more wobbly than firm now, perhaps there's hope...

I swing between not really caring about the "outline" as such, and just wanting her to have fun and then a little bit of me has this thought that it's got to be better for Dolly to be working using the correct muscles, for Dolly's benefit.

This is why kids like jumping more isn't it......

ps thanks for your lovely comments about daughter, dolly and me! You're definately not a beast! x

 

[scarymare]

Sorry I have't read the replies. Meeting in 5 mins

I do notice one pic is at the Cabin. I'd get hold of Julia Gourlay if I were you (training rep for BHS Grampian) and get her to help. Don't know if you have a regular instructor or just go to the endless clinics they have up here but I think you'd find that regular flatwork lessons with a BHS instructor for this stage of your daughter's riding would be far more effective than lowering the height of hay!

Again apologies if this is covered earlier.

 

[redmone]

Sorry I have't read the replies. Meeting in 5 mins

I do notice one pic is at the Cabin. I'd get hold of Julia Gourlay if I were you (training rep for BHS Grampian) and get her to help. Don't know if you have a regular instructor or just go to the endless clinics they have up here but I think you'd find that regular flatwork lessons with a BHS instructor for this stage of your daughter's riding would be far more effective than lowering the height of hay!

Again apologies if this is covered earlier.

Hi Scarymare! I don't know where the Cabin is! We're based in Manchester (Oldham actually). She has a couple of regular instructors who are awesome and have helped no end.

I'm glad about what you've said about the hay though! Seems daft, but I was worried that a simple haynet would undo all her good work

Enjoy your meeting

 

[GT_02]

Nothing useful to add re her outline or hay, but just wanted to say how much I love your Dolly updates. She's a cracking pony, the type I'd have chewed my own arm off to have as a child!

 

[Lolo]

I am as big a Dolly fan as ever

The knowledge about how to achieve an outline is important sure. And the way miniRM rides, she's learning that all the while. I agree that Dolly is not a pony who is built for going in a truly 'round' way, but the skills miniRM is learning right now are transferable. She'll eventually move on to a bigger pony and her good practice on Dolly will mean she achieves what she might struggle to now. But they look fab, and so smart.

FWIW, Al didn't do 'outlines' until she was about 12, and even then it was all about the energy and correct basics. The pony just started working well when they were in place, and from that she began to develop the feel for it. Having fun is far more important- I'll never forget watching her and her pony in a bending race, as he switched legs between each pole. It was hilarious and such a good use of schooling!

 

[Bobbly]

They look a good combination and I'm sure given time things will improve as far as the overall picture looks. As far as the haynet thing goes, why not try and find an old lorry tyre to put in the corner and tip her hay (wet or dry) into that?

 

[1stclassalan]

Just nipped back to chip in about haynets and outline as I didn't say anything about them before. I think it's all myth!

99.9% of what any of us turn out to be is in our DNA - you can't odds it! You might be lucky and not inherit your old man's beard and bald head or aunty Credwin's delightful eating habits but you WILL get some genes in their place from some other relation in your tree.

So, have you ever seen the mother or the father?