Dealing with a horse who has been roughly handled in the past?

[Ambers Echo]

Just wondering about something. The other day I went to take off Lottie's rug and she made to nip me. Possibly because we have been doing carrot stretches so she was getting a bit pushy. I automatically reprimanded her with a sharp 'oi' and blocked her with my hand. My hand made contact with her muzzle but more because she was swinging her head into it than because I struck her. But the raised voice and the contact properly panicked her. Head shot up and she ran to back of the stable. I tried to approach and she then skeetered round the edge of the stable to try and get away while I stood still with a non threatening posture. When she stopped I approached gently and she let me unrug her and tie her up for grooming.

As I started grooming she was rigid with tension. It occurred to me that the problem wasn’t really the 'oi' and the contact but the fear of 'what happens now'. I assume she has been beaten. She reminded me of a traumatised child who goes into meltdown at the mildest reprimand because of the fear of 'where is this leading'. I carried on grooming and she slowly relaxed. By the end she was back to normal and did not object in any way to being tacked up. Dropped her head for the bridle. Loaded nicely and gave me a fabulous ride.

So my question is - assuming she has been beaten, how best to manage that? With kids it is easy to tread on eggshells around them for fear of triggering a meltdown but actually they need to learn that a reprimand does not lead to a beating. They need to learn to be ok with mild consequences to poor choices, and trust that they will not be hurt. Is that the same with Lottie? I felt terrible that I had scared her. But maybe it will be important for her to learn that if she does the wrong thing she will have a proportionate consequence. And that’s then the end of it. Rather than tiptoe around her? Similar to the jumping issue - instead of avoiding it I tried to change her experience of it and therefore her perception of it so it is no longer something to get stressed about.

Since then she has been fine again. It does not appear to have set her back at all. If anything she has been a bit more chillled in the stable. And approaches to be caught rather than simply allowing it which is an improvement too.

Any thoughts?

 

[Roxylola]

Yeah, I think people can be over careful. I don't lose my temper but I'll correct behaviour, if they over react that's on them, I'll reassure if I need to, or give them a minute but I'm very black and white with them. Anything I've worked with has always settled well with that.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I assume she has been beaten.

That is a huge jump from one very minor accidental incident that she very briefly reacted to, to make the huge assumption she has been previously 'beaten' surely?

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks, that's reassuring. x

 

[Pearlsasinger]

My Draft horse had been roughly handled in her previous home, where, fortunately she had only been for 9 months. She was extremely wary of having 2 people anywhere near her stable while she was in there. I bought her tack with her and soon found that it did not fit. The previous owner told me that she bit, given half a chance. She always tied her up and put the bridle on first to keep her mouth closed.
The mare never bit me but did threaten a couple of times and, as I don't tie up routinely, then shot to the back of the stable. I ignored her, made sure that she had well-fitting tack and was careful when tacking up. In fact I stripped the saddle down so that there were no clanking stirrups etc to upset her. I gradually got her used to having a 2nd person coming closer and closer, until she finally decided that having 2 people in the stable giving her treats was actually quite nice.
So my advice is to take account of her preferences in the stable, make sure that you aren't rough/careless in any way and continue as matter-of factly as possible. She will learn that the world won't fall in if you say 'Oi!'

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks PAS. She is very brave and non-spooky generally so I don't think she is temperamentally highly strung or reactive. But she has been headshy and wary in the stable from day 1 and the reaction the other day was a very marked fear response. She was clearly expecting Bad Things to happen. But yes I am sure she will slowly learn that she doesn;t need to worry about that anymore.

 

[Cortez]

I have over the years had several horses that have been properly roughed up - as in beaten to the floor with chains, etc. (and still I have that particular one now, he's <<< over there in my avatar). I don't really treat those horses all that differently to the others, although it might mean not carrying a stick for a while, or being careful about raised voices or sudden movements, and it's a great day when you can reprimand them without huge overreactions, then you know the trust and confidence has been restored. This can take an extremely long time. I've also had horses that were huge overreactors, never been abused in any way and were just sensitive/liked a bit of drama/scaredy cats. Ignoring/reassuring them works best.

I wouldn't always assume abuse if a horse reacted like yours.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I've also had horses that were huge overreactors, never been abused in any way and were just sensitive/liked a bit of drama/scaredy cats. Ignoring/reassuring them works best.

I wouldn't always assume abuse if a horse reacted like yours.

I have a dog like that! Falls apart at the slightest hint of a cross voice and has very definitely neve been roughed up. Soo yes I see what you mean. But I really don't think Lottie is a drama queen. She is actually really easy going. I guess I'll never know for sure what her history is. I am looking forward to the day when she doesn;t over react anymore though x

 

[LEC]

I now do the Warwick Schiller thing of rubbing their muzzle and over fussing them if they try to nip. It actually works a treat.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks LEC that’s really interesting. I’ll definitely try that instead of correcting her. I didn’t think of it as engagement behaviour as opposed to pushiness.

 

[LEC]

Thanks LEC that’s really interesting. I’ll definitely try that instead of correcting her. I didn’t think of it as engagement behaviour as opposed to pushiness.

With the mares I think they communicate much better than geldings and that’s often around I don’t like that and tell you - rugs, rub them in wrong place etc. they are used to such subtle behaviour a flick of an ear, pulling a face. Rubbing the muzzle seems to say I hear you. I use it on girthy horses etc as well and they do get better.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

With the mares I think they communicate much better than geldings and that’s often around I don’t like that and tell you - rugs, rub them in wrong place etc. they are used to such subtle behaviour a flick of an ear, pulling a face. Rubbing the muzzle seems to say I hear you. I use it on girthy horses etc as well and they do get better.

Now that is really interesting!
I used to have a TBXWelsh mare, bought as a rising 4 yr old who was known to have been kept very short of food as a 2/3 yr old. She was very proud of all food, including hay when I first got her and would also chew lead-ropes etc. We used to rub her muzzle on a regular basis, as it calmed her down and sent her almost into a trance, a bit like a twitch does with some horses..

 

[LEC]

Now that is really interesting!
I used to have a TBXWelsh mare, bought as a rising 4 yr old who was known to have been kept very short of food as a 2/3 yr old. She was very proud of all food, including hay when I first got her and would also chew lead-ropes etc. We used to rub her muzzle on a regular basis, as it calmed her down and sent her almost into a trance, a bit like a twitch does with some horses..

There is probably an endorphin effect as well as we know it’s a sensitive area so maybe has a positive stimulation

 

[Highmileagecob]

Are you able to spend some time doing Join-Up with her, and generally allowing her to hang out with you eg standing with you whilst you chat to others, and being around you whilst you quietly get on with chores? Once she recognises you as the safe space to be, then hopefully, the defensive behaviour will calm down. Monty Roberts reckons that a horse can hear your heartbeat, and when it increases, that is a signal to fight or flee. My old boy originated from the travelling community: the only area where I still have problems is if we encounter a man/men with raised angry voices. Then the ears go back and the eye fixes and he will start to chase them. Found this out when we had to move to another yard for a short time, and a man there used to swear at his horses and swing a clip rope at them if they refused to be caught. Mine chased him the length of the field, with the girls on the yard sat on the gate cheering....

 

[Regandal]

There is a frenulum between the top lip and the gum, behind it is a big nerve plexus that when massaged, releases endorphins. It is that plexus that a top lip twitch stimulates. Any massage around that area will stimulate the release.
Or so it said in an ancient horse book I had years ago!

 

[Ambers Echo]

When I first got her she would try and chase me out of the stable. Ears pinned, snaked neck. But I never got the feeling it was aggression. Just anxiety. So I’d stand my ground, and when she softened I’d move away to take the pressure off to reward accepting me. I kept grooming to a minimum as she hated it. Her whole skin would shudder like they do when a fly lands. I wondered if it was actually sore/ticklish but the reaction was only in the stable so then I started doing most jobs tied up on the yard. It was specifically in the stable she struggled with.
Over time she allowed me in the stable more and I started just hanging out while she kept a ‘what are you doing’ eye on me. Finally about about 2 weeks ago she ate hay while I was in the stable with her. That felt huge. I actually approached to give her a scratch and she sighed and let me. I scratched her neck, ears etc. And I can now groom her in the stable and she’s fine. Seems to quite enjoy a good groom now. I don’t do the sending away part of join up but I do some Liberty with her and she follows my shoulder nicely.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

No, I don't like the sending away part of 'join-up', completely unnecessary and pointless, if not self-defeating, imho.

 

[GinaGeo]

I have used this to great effect with Pod.

I now do the Warwick Schiller thing of rubbing their muzzle and over fussing them if they try to nip. It actually works a treat.

His mouthiness was mostly boy play behaviour with his natural level of cheekiness added in top.

He’s also prone to massive over-reaction and a raised voice would have him whirling backwards round the stable. He has never been beaten. But is a react now think later kind of horse. His flight response is very sharp.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

Pepsi is very similar to Lottie. I also think hes probably not had the best experiences with humans (as like her, he’s actually not very sharp/spooky, and underneath all the tension is very sweet and curious) so is interesting to see the responses here.

I’ve done a lot of R+ and pressure-release stuff with him which definitely helps. Teaching him to accept sudden movements in the vicinity without such a dramatic fear reaction, that hands moving don’t equal bad things. So basically doing star jumps and waving my arms around with him on a lunge line, basically acting like a total loon. But building it up slowly and with lots of praise to try not to overwhelm him.

Don’t get me wrong, I do “correct” him. But it’s less telling off and more redirection. For example, he gets bargy when he’s anxious/stressed. He knows how to back up out of my space on command, I’ve taught him in groundwork sessions. He pushes into my space? He gets told to back up. Pressure gradually increases and doesn’t get released until he listens. Basically just calmly and insistently asking for something ELSE. For him, he also gets a food reward. I’d probably leave that out for a nippy/pushy horse, I think it would still work.

Sorry got a bit off track there but you get the idea. I’m not sure how you’d directly translate that to the nipping issue, but reverse might help. Plus looks like you’ve got lots of good suggestions here already!

The little wins definitely become big wins with these guys don’t they?! I was so happy the first time he let me feed him a treat over the door rather than immediately retreating to the back of the stable when I approached.

 

[ihatework]

My 6yo came out of the womb completely suspicious of people and any hint of anything other than calm & confident from the handler would lead to some sort of over reaction. If you were to raise a hand or voice to him (it’s never been necessary btw) I can pretty much guarantee you would spend a long while regaining his trust and he’d probably be in counselling for life ?

He is btw one of the most hard working, honest, kind and intelligent horses I’ve dealt with for a long time!

By the way he reacts you would think he had a traumatic upbringing. I can guarantee you he hasn’t!

How is he dealt with - in a matter of fact, black & white way. Expectations set. No/little reaction from rider/handler if he accidentally gets it wrong (he almost tries to hard). Calm and consistent all day long but absolutely no pandering.

To be honest, that’s generally what most horses do well with irrespective of trauma / no trauma

 

[Zuzan]

I think I would be looking at lowering my energy / softening my posture and turning side on to her (not facing directly at her), immediately after a reprimand.. You kind of want to get the message that the blocking / reprimand is all .. Full Stop. (Assuming the immediate reprimand has been heeded..) Horses are very adept at reading body language and Amber will soon learn that there isn't going to be follow up beating / further punishment. Also bearing in mind it's very important to get the timing right for any shaping that you attempt.

 

[Bellaboo18]

I haven't read all the replies but thought I'd reply as it's something I live with.

My lovely mare did have a tough time before she came to me. I go with completely ignoring any overreaction. Her go to was to think she's going to be hit; if I was talking to someone and gesture she'd shoot away to the back of the stable and i'd just carry on and let her process that nothing bad actually happened. It's working, it's rare she shoots off now but I think the worst thing you can do is overly reassure them and reinforce that well done you coped with that really scary thing. It wasn't scary and that's why I didn't make it a thing.
And yes she's still corrected if she's being rude but interestingly if she knows she's been bolshy she accepts an Oi!

 

[Ambers Echo]

This is all really reassuring. I felt terrible that she was so panicked. I felt like I must have done something terrible because she behaved like I had attacked her! But it’s helpful to think about ignoring over reactions x

 

[Highmileagecob]

No, I don't like the sending away part of 'join-up', completely unnecessary and pointless, if not self-defeating, imho.

Agree. And the more I pick up on the horse's body language, as pointed out by Monty - the ear fixing, the head lowering and the chewing motion, the more I wonder if we thoroughly confuse horses by lunging? All the same signs are there that the horse is ready to 'join' your herd, but the lesson keeps pushing them away....Feel free to shoot me down, I don't lunge, I'm a happy hacker!

 

[Britestar]

I have a rescue pony. He came from a less than reputable dealer.
When he arrived any movement at all almost resulted in a him shaped hole in the wall.

I quickly came to realise that previous owners jumped higher than him when he jumped.
I did contact someone who owned him as a 2yr old. He only comment was "he has a strong flight response". I think naturally he's very wary. Definitely not smooshed enough as a foal!

I totally disregard any leaps or over reaction. I just get on with what I'm doing. If you raised your voice at him, he just about melted. Now, if it genuinely is a reprimand, he will scoot away, but honestly most of the time he just looks at you, with his big brown eyes, blinks as if to say, "you can't tell me off, I'm nervous!".

He's still impossible to catch, and I accept that and have a system to get him in whenever I need him.

 

[Caol Ila]

Agree. And the more I pick up on the horse's body language, as pointed out by Monty - the ear fixing, the head lowering and the chewing motion, the more I wonder if we thoroughly confuse horses by lunging? All the same signs are there that the horse is ready to 'join' your herd, but the lesson keeps pushing them away....Feel free to shoot me down, I don't lunge, I'm a happy hacker!

With my funny little ex-feral, I've found lunging very useful, but used very carefully, with intent and goals in mind. Not just making him run around in circles for exercise, or run until he submits (whatever that means). His previous trainers never quite got the message through to him that he could trust and follow a human's direction without the human walking directly in front of him.

If I lunge him, standing in line with his hip, I can convey this message while at the same time, conveying the message that I want him to keep doing the thing he's doing (trotting or walking in a circle) until I want him to do something else. Both very useful lessons for riding. But you have to be so precise in your cues, timing, body language. When he does what I'm asking (trotting in a circle), I maintain my position, but stay very, very quiet with my aids (the lead rope/lunge line in the leading hand, and the dead rope/lunge whip in the other). If he starts slowing, drops to walk, tries to turn, I give him a light cue, a slight wiggle of my dead rope. If he ignores that, he gets a slightly more emphatic wiggle, then immediate quiet as soon as he offers me the desired response.

Humans are busy. You can create stress and neurosis, not through intententonally thwacking horse, but just not being as self-aware as they need. I was watching someone lunge a horse, and even when the horse was going in their desired gait, in the desired direction, they were still flicking the rope at it. Don't think they were even 100% aware of it. They were just doing it. We just like doing things with our hands. The horse would get confused, and then "misbehave," at which point the handler would shank it with the rope. I was spitting fire from my observation point, but didn't feel like my opinion was actually wanted. I get it too. It's so easy to start getting really busy when things aren't going quite right and then get yourself and your horse into a muddle, but if my funny little ex-feral has taught me anything, it's about just stopping, being still, collecting yourself, and trying again from a different angle. One even quieter and clearer.

 

[Equi]

I too have a bit of a drama queen overreactor. She’s never been beaten or rough handled (I bred her) she never needed to be. Some days you would think I’m out to electrocute her. But she’s still the first to run up in the field and see what you’ve got and what you’re doing then follow you to the gate cause you forgot to take her with you. Can’t exactly pin point when this started but it seemed to be around about the start of her seasons, but she’s never naughty so I never have to correct her. Some days she just has this way about her. Some days she won’t get out of the way. If she’s having one of her moods I make sure I give her a few moments to process, then she gets a quick scratch in her favourite spot so she doesn’t actually start to believe she’s ferel then I leave her alone.

I’m convinced she’s been here before though. I don’t ever remember teaching her to lunge but she went foot perfect the other day going when I said and stopping when I said. Weird pony.

her brother who’s had probably more done as he was kept entire until 4 doesn’t have any of this way about him. He’s the one I have to reprimand now and then for just being in the way all the time lol

 

[LegOn]

My horse reacted like this - still reacts like this sometimes and was never roughly handled or beaten! He is just a worrier and quite sensitive but if you approach him with submission he gets more worried about why you are worried!

I've given him said taps in the past with massive overreaction or if he accidentally got a tap of a broom handle while sweeping his stable or mucking out or a swing of a rope in accident either - and if you just are like 'ah your fine' in big positive voice with lots of big pats and general happiness and not worry, he gets over it really quickly - but if you give him kid-gloves and are all slow and steady and moving cautiously, he gets majorly stressed about why you are stressed! He needs the happy-go-lucky, life is fine, that was fine vibe to just de-stress his little brain! He is a loveable fusspot!

 

[Cob Life]

I just ignore the behaviour where he freaks out, with the exception of lunge whips, I can’t take them near him and I can ride with a schooling whip now (that used to send him mental too, I just started carrying one every ride but not using it and he’s learnt it isn’t anything to be scared of) but can’t have any sort of whip with me if he’s being lunged.