Errin Paddywack
Well-Known Member
Having seen that picture of the bite I too would have whacked that colt. The pony rider didn't look so big from the front either.
Debate for the rights and wrongs of racing
- Thread starter fankino04
- Start date
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
What on earth are you on about .
My Tb J had a tie back in training he did not cough .
TheChestnutThing
Well-Known Member
As an ex racer owner (I currently have 2 and have previously had 3), these are my thoughts:
They are raced far too young
They are shod far too young
Some yards look after their horses better than others (my showjumper raced 19 times, came off the track when he was 7 as a winner of many and sound in body) whereas my friend's TB just turned 4 and raced 21 times, not placing or winning anything and is broken in body and mind.
Due to the racing industry racing them so young, when they come off the track many members of the general public think it's ok to jump them at 3 and 4 and take them to shows the same month the come off. I hate this part. It is not ok.
They are raced far too young
They are shod far too young
Some yards look after their horses better than others (my showjumper raced 19 times, came off the track when he was 7 as a winner of many and sound in body) whereas my friend's TB just turned 4 and raced 21 times, not placing or winning anything and is broken in body and mind.
Due to the racing industry racing them so young, when they come off the track many members of the general public think it's ok to jump them at 3 and 4 and take them to shows the same month the come off. I hate this part. It is not ok.
SibeliusMB
Well-Known Member
....Seriously? What are you basing your statements on, personal experience on the backside of US tracks and training centers or just what you see on TV for 30 seconds?
I've seen far more horses get treated very well in the US Thoroughbred industry than ones treated badly or with any kind of disrespect. Are there bad trainers/grooms/jocks in the US? Absolutely. But they exist elsewhere too. When I bought my last horse off the track, a low-level claimer from a small-time track in Illinois, he was loved by his trainer. The entire string looked impeccable, the barn immaculate despite a painfully small staff. He cared deeply about where the horses went and who he sold them to, to the point of denying potential buyers he felt were not suitable. Not all trainers in the world do that.
Some trainers in other parts of the world use their dead horses as sofas to make phone calls. I'm not judging the UK racing industry by that.
The US breeding output is actually on a downward trend. The industry has also gone through major changes regarding aftercare funding, rehoming and retraining efforts, and banning trainers who dump their former horses at auctions. The industry still has big improvements to make in ways of drug restrictions and injury prevention, but on the whole it's investing in their futures beyond the track in ways that other racing associations should follow.
Regarding the outrider, I understand the optics are bad and there could have been other ways to handle it. I agree the best thing to do would have been nothing and just let the horse go on its own. Other than standard protocol I don't see why the jock didn't just tell the outrider not to bother and ride the horse back unescorted. That said...the armchair critics have all day to sit there from the safety of their couch and criticize the man.
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Parrotperson
Well-Known Member
Bob Baffert aint exactly the best advert for American racing and he's pretty much all we hear about here most of the time
As for the treatment of Rich Strike I agree with Elf and others. Let the bloody thing go and re group. No need to abuse the horse even if it is a biter. And that was abuse pure and simple.
As for the treatment of Rich Strike I agree with Elf and others. Let the bloody thing go and re group. No need to abuse the horse even if it is a biter. And that was abuse pure and simple.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Elf's comment was unnecessary. However, my understanding - from a friend who worked in US racing - is that US racing does have more breakdowns than UK flat racing, and certainly more breakdowns than Japan, and that the US generally has more of a "horse sense" approach to training, rather than using methods supported by the science. So there are reasons for its poor reputation. (Plus, I would think that the trend of low-level trainers caring more about the horses would apply in most countries.)
Dismissing the related shock/upset as "armchair criticism" is a dangerous route to take, and polarises the debate. Everyone agrees it wasn't the right approach. Nor did it solve anything. Unsurprisingly, it didn't settle Rich Strike, and the outrider's horse started escalating its behaviour to show its own discomfort. Perhaps, the outrider was doing the best he could in the situation to control both horses. But neither of the horses was being set up to succeed either - for me, that's the bigger issue. The outrider's horse was put in a distressing situation. And a horse who bites like Rich Strike, in my mind, is a deeply unhappy animal to begin with, and certainly not biting for fun/out of arrogance, like I've heard people joke.
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Dismissing the related shock/upset as "armchair criticism" is a dangerous route to take, and polarises the debate. Everyone agrees it wasn't the right approach. Nor did it solve anything. Unsurprisingly, it didn't settle Rich Strike, and the outrider's horse started escalating its behaviour to show its own discomfort. Perhaps, the outrider was doing the best he could in the situation to control both horses. But neither of the horses was being set up to succeed either - for me, that's the bigger issue. The outrider's horse was put in a distressing situation. And a horse who bites like Rich Strike, in my mind, is a deeply unhappy animal to begin with, and certainly not biting for fun/out of arrogance, like I've heard people joke.
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fetlock
Well-Known Member
The pony's neck (and almost severed rein)
fetlock
Well-Known Member
Another one (mostly posting this one for the top left corner part of the photo) . Not sure what's going on or gone on there.
GSD Woman
Well-Known Member
That poor pony and the rub on the other horse, yikes. If another horse had bitten my horse like that I would have punched that sucker as hard as I could.
Are you a pet psychic?? And yes, that is sarcasm. Stallions pull that stuff. Horses bite because horse bite. Stallions seem to do it more that geldings and mares. I seriously doubt Rich Strike has been abused.
Are you a pet psychic?? And yes, that is sarcasm. Stallions pull that stuff. Horses bite because horse bite. Stallions seem to do it more that geldings and mares. I seriously doubt Rich Strike has been abused.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Horses can be unhappy without technically being abused - don’t put words in my mouth. Behaviour is performed for a reason - and a happy horse doesn’t take bites of peoples’ legs. You don’t need my psychic talents to recognise that; secondhand equine science textbooks are cheap.
And, above all else, the 20th century called - they want their attitude to stallions back.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I don't think you can conclude from horses being horses that the horse is unhappy. Sometimes, horses just want to go for another horse. My old mare wanted to go for every other horse! All of them. My friend's horse (a gelding) does not seem to be an unhappy horse, yet he hates my horse. God knows why. They live in different herds, and Foinavon is very much an omega sort of horse. The other week, friend's horse got himself wound up on a hack, then, when his blood was up, he tried backing into Fin, threatening to kick. I always give him a wide berth and was a few horselengths away, but I still bricked it and had to take fast, evasive maneuvers. Luckily my horse is small and quick. Horses just do that stuff sometimes. Don't think you can extrapolate much beyond that.
Anyway, sounds like it's racing rules for the outriders to catch the winner and pony it to the winner's circle.
Anyway, sounds like it's racing rules for the outriders to catch the winner and pony it to the winner's circle.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
If you mean the red bit, that was his headgear.
GSD Woman
Well-Known Member
for stangs, a copy and paste from Denny Emerson.
Tamarack Hill Farm
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I have had more direct contact with stallions, I suspect, than most. I got my first stallion in 1958, which is 64 years ago. I have ridden two stallions around Rolex. I have placed second on the GMHA 100 mile trail ride on a stallion. I have ridden thoroughbred, Arabian, warmblood, Morgan and Irish cross stallions, maybe 25 or so, over the last 70 years. I have stood about 16-17 stallions at stud---So my dealings with stallions have been close up and frequent, over many decades.
Which is why I feel somewhat qualified to chime in on the controversy surrounding the aggressive behavior of yesterday's Kentucky Derby winner, after the race, while he was still pumped full of energy and adrenaline, toward the lead pony who was bringing him back.
Stallions have built in drives and aggressions that geldings rarely have. That is one big reason we geld male horses, to make them less aggressive. Some mares have a bit of this, but not nearly so common a behavioral trait.
When a young and highly revved young stallion is coming at you, mouth open, what are you going to do, sit there and get savaged? No, you are going to do what you have to do to try to not get hurt, and anyone stupid enough to think otherwise ought to get out there and see what it is like, rather than blab about what the rider SHOULD have done, from the safety of some couch.
Big talk, no action---Easy to do from a safe haven.
Photos are a few I've ridden--
Tamarack Hill Farm
·
I have had more direct contact with stallions, I suspect, than most. I got my first stallion in 1958, which is 64 years ago. I have ridden two stallions around Rolex. I have placed second on the GMHA 100 mile trail ride on a stallion. I have ridden thoroughbred, Arabian, warmblood, Morgan and Irish cross stallions, maybe 25 or so, over the last 70 years. I have stood about 16-17 stallions at stud---So my dealings with stallions have been close up and frequent, over many decades.
Which is why I feel somewhat qualified to chime in on the controversy surrounding the aggressive behavior of yesterday's Kentucky Derby winner, after the race, while he was still pumped full of energy and adrenaline, toward the lead pony who was bringing him back.
Stallions have built in drives and aggressions that geldings rarely have. That is one big reason we geld male horses, to make them less aggressive. Some mares have a bit of this, but not nearly so common a behavioral trait.
When a young and highly revved young stallion is coming at you, mouth open, what are you going to do, sit there and get savaged? No, you are going to do what you have to do to try to not get hurt, and anyone stupid enough to think otherwise ought to get out there and see what it is like, rather than blab about what the rider SHOULD have done, from the safety of some couch.
Big talk, no action---Easy to do from a safe haven.
Photos are a few I've ridden--
SibeliusMB
Well-Known Member
Putting this out there and risking being told what a terrible horseman I am...
Sometimes sh!t happens. This was from my previous horse, my heart horse who himself was off the track years earlier. Soon was a perfect gentleman with exceptional ground manners, lived a happy, relaxed life with lots of turnout and the chance to be a horse. He and his new turnout partner (who was also easy to handle and respectful) were on their second day out together, and me being in a rush that morning, I brought them in together. Something that many of us do every day and probably take for granted. Perhaps they were still sorting out their pecking order. Perhaps Soon was feeling territorial or possessive. But when we were halfway down the hill and both horses walking calmly in their own space on either side of me, Soon suddenly lunged at the other horse...and missed.
Impacting with my shoulder seemed to shock him, his jaw locked as a result and I felt his teetch clamp down on the muscles over top of my shoulder blade. He immediately threw his head up, which dragged me to the left until his teeth finally slid off my shoulder. It hurt so badly I shrunk down to one knee, still holding a horse in each hand. I was screaming absolute bloody murder. It was sudden, it took me completely by surprise, and it hurt like nothing I had experienced before that. It honestly felt like the muscle was being torn from the bone.
I expect that outrider probably has a similar mark or two, and we see that Rich Strike chewed a hole in the outrider horse's neck. Rich Strike had never been in that position before, we're looking at a heated, adrenaline and testosterone fueled moment with fit, excited, and stressed racehorses. For that reason lots of horses are caught and ponied back to the winner circle without incident in North America. Many of us seem to agree that the right thing to do in this situation may have been to let the horse go, but it was Churchill's rule for the winner to be caught and escorted back to the winner's circle. That may not be how things are done in this part of the world, but being different doesn't mean wrong. Just a reminder that sh!t happens and being a human in that position, in that moment, isn't enviable. Call it heroic, call it abuse, call it whatever you want, but at the end of the day...it just sucks.
Sometimes sh!t happens. This was from my previous horse, my heart horse who himself was off the track years earlier. Soon was a perfect gentleman with exceptional ground manners, lived a happy, relaxed life with lots of turnout and the chance to be a horse. He and his new turnout partner (who was also easy to handle and respectful) were on their second day out together, and me being in a rush that morning, I brought them in together. Something that many of us do every day and probably take for granted. Perhaps they were still sorting out their pecking order. Perhaps Soon was feeling territorial or possessive. But when we were halfway down the hill and both horses walking calmly in their own space on either side of me, Soon suddenly lunged at the other horse...and missed.
Impacting with my shoulder seemed to shock him, his jaw locked as a result and I felt his teetch clamp down on the muscles over top of my shoulder blade. He immediately threw his head up, which dragged me to the left until his teeth finally slid off my shoulder. It hurt so badly I shrunk down to one knee, still holding a horse in each hand. I was screaming absolute bloody murder. It was sudden, it took me completely by surprise, and it hurt like nothing I had experienced before that. It honestly felt like the muscle was being torn from the bone.
I expect that outrider probably has a similar mark or two, and we see that Rich Strike chewed a hole in the outrider horse's neck. Rich Strike had never been in that position before, we're looking at a heated, adrenaline and testosterone fueled moment with fit, excited, and stressed racehorses. For that reason lots of horses are caught and ponied back to the winner circle without incident in North America. Many of us seem to agree that the right thing to do in this situation may have been to let the horse go, but it was Churchill's rule for the winner to be caught and escorted back to the winner's circle. That may not be how things are done in this part of the world, but being different doesn't mean wrong. Just a reminder that sh!t happens and being a human in that position, in that moment, isn't enviable. Call it heroic, call it abuse, call it whatever you want, but at the end of the day...it just sucks.
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GSD Woman
Well-Known Member
SibeliusMB.
Wow! I can't imagine the pain. Glad that there were no broken bones.
Wow! I can't imagine the pain. Glad that there were no broken bones.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Ouch to the injury. I've been picked up by the arm and I agree, one of the most painful things I've ever felt and I still have the scar 25 years on!
I don't get that argument, sorry Sib. Are you saying that the jockey isn't capable of safely riding the horse he's just won on back to the paddock without a ridden lead? That he couldn't have ridden it back alone and that it couldn't have been led in quietly by a handler on the ground?
Are the other horses also caught by someone on horseback and led in, or is it just the winner?
It seems to me as if it's being done just for the spectacle of it. And yes, I do believe that horse should have been let go.
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I don't get that argument, sorry Sib. Are you saying that the jockey isn't capable of safely riding the horse he's just won on back to the paddock without a ridden lead? That he couldn't have ridden it back alone and that it couldn't have been led in quietly by a handler on the ground?
Are the other horses also caught by someone on horseback and led in, or is it just the winner?
It seems to me as if it's being done just for the spectacle of it. And yes, I do believe that horse should have been let go.
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SibeliusMB
Well-Known Member
What I'm saying, and have said in a previous post, is that that track has a standard protocol and that's to escort the winner back. We all can disagree with it because it's not done here in the UK. Cool. Good for us. This is the first time I can recall, ever, that the horse got aggressive like that with the pony after the race. You don't have a handler waiting on the far side turn to hand walk the horse back a quarter mile or more, and Rich Strike didn't give any indication according to his trainer of that kind of behavior in previous races.
So again, different is just different. It's how things are done there at that track. If people feel so strongly about it, do feel free to write Churchill or KY Racing. I'm sure they'll be happy to lay off dozens of pony and outriders because the UK doesn't us them, and neither should Churchill. ?
Also, that horse ran one hell of a race, which has been completely overlooked.
So again, different is just different. It's how things are done there at that track. If people feel so strongly about it, do feel free to write Churchill or KY Racing. I'm sure they'll be happy to lay off dozens of pony and outriders because the UK doesn't us them, and neither should Churchill. ?
Also, that horse ran one hell of a race, which has been completely overlooked.
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
No I'm sorry, "different is different" and "it's the standard protocol" don't answer the situation which arose. If the protocol is turning out on the day to be dangerous, it should be dropped in favour of a safer alternative, like riding in together without being led. And if a horse is so wound up it's attacking the man who is trying to lead him, and his horse, the answer is not to punch the horse around the head, yank it in the teeth, and take a shorter hold. Any decent horse person knows that will most likely only wind the creature up more.
I understand that you are, rightly, annoyed about the "Americans!" criticism, but I'm really surprised that as a horse owner you're defending what's seen on that video.
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SibeliusMB
Well-Known Member
Where did I defend him and condone his actions? Twice now ycbm I've said the horse should have been let go and regrouped. I agreed with Elf on that. Others in this thread have said outright that they'd have hit the horse too, for crying out loud, are they all terrible horse owners now too?
I am attempting to explain the track protocol, clearly very unsuccessfully. I personally think horses should just be ridden back, it's done at other levels of racing in the US. But i don't make rules at US tracks. People are welcome to voice concerns with Churchill because doing so here is not going to spark change.
I am upset over Elf's comment. It's insulting to those of us try to learn and do better, and to the American horsemen in racing who care.
I am attempting to explain the track protocol, clearly very unsuccessfully. I personally think horses should just be ridden back, it's done at other levels of racing in the US. But i don't make rules at US tracks. People are welcome to voice concerns with Churchill because doing so here is not going to spark change.
I am upset over Elf's comment. It's insulting to those of us try to learn and do better, and to the American horsemen in racing who care.
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Your upset is justified.
I hadn't read your post saying he should have been let go, sorry. I only read your defense of it as it was protocol.
I don't have any problem with the protocol, or with difference. I hope the track now realises that they need a fallback plan.
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I hadn't read your post saying he should have been let go, sorry. I only read your defense of it as it was protocol.
I don't have any problem with the protocol, or with difference. I hope the track now realises that they need a fallback plan.
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Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Elfs comment is extremely rude and ignorant and after that she will go into the posters who views I don’t consider box .
I have been round horses long enough not to wish to condemn a reaction made as a response to pain in a stressful situation .
Everyone looks pretty stressed in that picture .
I got picked up by one of my boobs and throw across the yard by a horse who came over the stable door to do it , it was agony I was black and blue all over my torso front and back .
I have been round horses long enough not to wish to condemn a reaction made as a response to pain in a stressful situation .
Everyone looks pretty stressed in that picture .
I got picked up by one of my boobs and throw across the yard by a horse who came over the stable door to do it , it was agony I was black and blue all over my torso front and back .
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Elsewhere it’s been stated that they’re led back in asap to get the interview, which doesn’t partner too well with a horse that needs to canter down a bit before coming in, or unled.
tristar
Well-Known Member
why on earth do they do things like that, taking another horse near a colt or stallion is asking to get bitten
TPO
🤠🏴
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Not knowing a lot about racing in the US or the UK, I asked on COTH why they use pony horses in the States, but not here. Why have a bun fight when you can ask for information?
Their answers (paraphrased): there's less space at the US tracks, so if a horse gets loose, it has potential to cause a lot more damage because everybody and everything is packed in closer. And while UK racehorses are hacked to the gallops, ridden on roads, and trained much more like 'normal' riding horses in some ways, US horses are not (you can debate the ethics and practicalities of that, but it is what it is). They are used to being lead/ponied when moving from one place or another. Also, if things go wrong, that jockey is coming off. So, safety! And after the Kentucky Derby, there are a million people milling around on the track, and that three-year old stallion (usually) has to get from A to B, quickly. For the last 147 Kentucky Derbys, the winners have been caught by the outriders without any hassle. Not just for the interviewers, but to make sure no one's cheating, trying to keep everyone safe with huge crowds pressing around the horse, and tradition. Clearly, getting caught by the outrider wound Rich Strike up, and in hindsight, it would have made sense to let him canter it off a bit. Hindsight is great. But that guy has been catching Derby winners for many years; he was doing his job, same as every year, with other colts, and this colt got studdy. Horses don't always do what you'd hoped or predicted, and when you're in it, you're in it. I've had my own horse freak out at something unexpected, miles from home, and you're just trying to figure out what the least worst thing is. Do I try to hold him while he's rearing and plunging, or do I let him trot/canter up the West Highland Way and hope that dog walkers, WHW hikers, and mountain bikers get out of my way?
Once it started to go a bit pear shaped with Rich Strike, I see why the outrider didn't let him go. He could have wheeled around and kicked the other horse; he could have continued attacking the pony or gone for another horse; he could have bucked or reared and gotten loose and caused more carnage. The COTH racing people pointed out that a jockey, with his stirrups in racing position, is not in a great place for staying on board or controlling the horse if it starts doing stupid stuff. Especially with a youngster that's broke to do one job, and only one job.
They also added a few videos from the UK and Ireland of loose horses causing chaos, and no outriders to chase them down. Everyone thinks their system is the best one.
Their answers (paraphrased): there's less space at the US tracks, so if a horse gets loose, it has potential to cause a lot more damage because everybody and everything is packed in closer. And while UK racehorses are hacked to the gallops, ridden on roads, and trained much more like 'normal' riding horses in some ways, US horses are not (you can debate the ethics and practicalities of that, but it is what it is). They are used to being lead/ponied when moving from one place or another. Also, if things go wrong, that jockey is coming off. So, safety! And after the Kentucky Derby, there are a million people milling around on the track, and that three-year old stallion (usually) has to get from A to B, quickly. For the last 147 Kentucky Derbys, the winners have been caught by the outriders without any hassle. Not just for the interviewers, but to make sure no one's cheating, trying to keep everyone safe with huge crowds pressing around the horse, and tradition. Clearly, getting caught by the outrider wound Rich Strike up, and in hindsight, it would have made sense to let him canter it off a bit. Hindsight is great. But that guy has been catching Derby winners for many years; he was doing his job, same as every year, with other colts, and this colt got studdy. Horses don't always do what you'd hoped or predicted, and when you're in it, you're in it. I've had my own horse freak out at something unexpected, miles from home, and you're just trying to figure out what the least worst thing is. Do I try to hold him while he's rearing and plunging, or do I let him trot/canter up the West Highland Way and hope that dog walkers, WHW hikers, and mountain bikers get out of my way?
Once it started to go a bit pear shaped with Rich Strike, I see why the outrider didn't let him go. He could have wheeled around and kicked the other horse; he could have continued attacking the pony or gone for another horse; he could have bucked or reared and gotten loose and caused more carnage. The COTH racing people pointed out that a jockey, with his stirrups in racing position, is not in a great place for staying on board or controlling the horse if it starts doing stupid stuff. Especially with a youngster that's broke to do one job, and only one job.
They also added a few videos from the UK and Ireland of loose horses causing chaos, and no outriders to chase them down. Everyone thinks their system is the best one.
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Is it only the winner that is ponied in?
If not all the horses in the race are ponied in, then the arguments about safety etc go right out the window.
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If not all the horses in the race are ponied in, then the arguments about safety etc go right out the window.
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Cortez
Tough but Fair
IM (admittedly not comprehensive) E, all runners are ponied in.
SibeliusMB
Well-Known Member
In an opposite example of what crazy things can happen when an outrider is needed and not there...It might be worth considering that the presence of outriders could have prevented this horse from ever reaching the crowd:
bonny
Well-Known Member
Not sure how anyone was going to catch that horse, was very lucky that no one was injured.
SibeliusMB
Well-Known Member
You'd be very surprised what a good horse and a good outrider can catch.