Debate for the rights and wrongs of racing

[fankino04]

As all the Aintree / Cheltenham threads go off on a tangent about whether racing (and equestrian sport in general)is cruel I thought I'd open up a new thread where people can air their views.
I genuinely love watching the racing but often feel guilty / conflicted over it.
In flat racing I think the age they start is terrible and don't know why more pressure can't be brought to change that.
I would like to see racing ( flat and NH) trial a total whip ban, they would be allowed for safety to keep a horse straight but not to hit or wave about and push a horse too far, this would at least remove the image of the horse " being flogged to death".
I would like to see more ad hoc welfare inspections of training yards ( I don't know what happens now), I absolutely believe that most yards love and care for their horses as if they were royalty but this isn't the case for all, my ex racer landed badly after jumping a hurdle at Hexham, rotated her pelvis and didn't receive vet treatment, she began refusing after that and was bullied into continuing ( back at her trainers), became increasingly aggressive and after a further 6 months was given up on and sold out of racing ( this is 2nd and 3rd hand info I pieced together after getting her and having her pelvis sorted but it fits with the horse I had in front of me who also broke a farriers leg as in so much pain from her pelvis). My work experience was in a flat yard where the horses were pretty much kept in a constant state of terror when people were around (brooms and forks waved aggressively at them upon entering stables, lots of shouting etc), the head lad said the adrenaline built more muscle and made them run faster.
I would like to see more done about the wastage level, maybe less races lead to less being bred, maybe just better plans in place by owners for life after racing and owners need a licence too and if they fail their horses then they lose their licence.
I would also like to see better stats compiled for all equine deaths so we can truly see if racing is more harmful, for example how many out of 1000 horses in training suffer a heart attack / broken leg etc compared to those in other sports and leisure horses ( mine fatally broke her femur in the field).
Sorry this is a lot of rambling but just my unorganised thoughts, feel free to add your own.

 

[TPO]

I can't think of any rights....

At a push the money from/in racing used to try to fix broken racehorses filters down to help our "pets".

Wrongs:

Intensive breeding
Wastage
How they are kept
Lack of forage
Fed high starch feeds that their digestive system isn't designed for
Started <2yrs old
In training/racing before they've matured
Shod before their hooves have developed
Lives endangered to make money for people
Lives endangered for entertainment
"Socked in the mouth" by stable staff in a mood as just one example of the "love" some staff have for them.

Absolutely none of it is for the benefit of the horse/horses. It's just man doing what man always has to do and try to have the "best" at any cost.

 

[fankino04]

I can't think of any rights....

At a push the money from/in racing used to try to fix broken racehorses filters down to help our "pets".

Wrongs:

Intensive breeding
Wastage
How they are kept
Lack of forage
Fed high starch feeds that their digestive system isn't designed for
Started <2yrs old
In training/racing before they've matured
Shod before their hooves have developed
Lives endangered to make money for people
Lives endangered for entertainment
"Socked in the mouth" by stable staff in a mood as just one example of the "love" some staff have for them.

Absolutely none of it is for the benefit of the horse/horses. It's just man doing what man always has to do and try to have the "best" at any cost.

How much of that is also true of SJ / eventing / dressage / general leisure horse?
Edited to add that I'm not defending racing just trying to get a sense of if it deserves the attack it gets compared with other equestrian sports, also how can it be made better or do we just want them all banned?

 

[Trouper]

As a former ex-racehorse owner, you have both set out all my concerns very clearly. I am not sure how we go about changing things when so much money is involved - it just seems to be the way sport in general is going.

It is no good all those involved in racing going on about how well looked after the horses are on the day if their early years and daily regime are so at odds with the life any equine really needs. I know there are good trainers but even they are locked into the present system if they want to have any "success".

I suppose a whip ban would be a start. After all, if you can't ride without a whip should you be riding at all?

 

[TPO]

How much of that is also true of SJ / eventing / dressage / general leisure horse?
Edited to add that I'm not defending racing just trying to get a sense of if it deserves the attack it gets compared with other equestrian sports, also how can it be made better or do we just want them all banned?

Oh I agree and I teeter on the edge of the rabbit hole about us riding horses at all quite a lot of the time.

It is all for our benefit and, although certain people are ignorant to it, we do cause them "damage" every time we ride. Ergo the onus is to ensure that they are fit and capable to what we ask, that all tack fits well, that we aren't too heavy and that we ride as well as possible while always looking to improve.

To me the biggest difference between racing and other sports is the intensive breeding and level of wastage doesn't appear to compare.

Generally for high level competitive sports most people are looking for longevity. It takes a while and a lot of miles to get up the levels. Therefore horses are unlikely to be started as young and likely to be given time to mature physically.

All competitions are for man's benefit at the end of the day. Horses don't care but we need to somehow go faster/higher/harder/bigger

 

[ycbm]

This site is not perfect, I know, but death rates in jump racing are far higher than in the next most dangerous jumping sport, eventing. 53 so far this year, and that won't include some that went home and were PTS after assessment at home, or the ones that broke down in training and never made it to the course.

If eventing had the death rates of jump racing then I think it would be stopped.

https://www.horsedeathwatch.com/
.

 

[spacefaer]

Well, it doesn't look as though you're going to get a balanced discussion!

 

[Gingerwitch]

Any sport that uses tie back or hobday ops so horses can breathe better when galloping fast, horses still fired in Ireland, foals bred to be euthanized if dam needed for a better bred foal who has lost its dam.
Flogged when on their last legs for entertainment to add a few more

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Is ‘being treated like royalty’ a good thing for horses? (Is it good for royalty?) What does it even mean?

What is royalty for horses-company, as much turnout and forage as possible and being kept safe from fear, pain and illness? And is that what racehorses get? What about the ulcers? What about the kissing spines? The feet? The vices? The breeding from any ‘well bred’ mare that breaks down before she even sees a track?

and even if that is the case, does all that good treatment matter a jot if they are passed on without due care at the end of their useful racing career.
The racing public don’t give a damn about the horses, they only care about getting drunk, wearing daft clothes and winning money-the whole spectacle is really quite obscene.

I worked in Newmarket for years, in yards, vet practices and because I got freebie passes, accompanied the race vets on numerous occasions. If you think I hold professional racing in contempt, don’t get me started on events such as the Newmarket Town Plate, where ‘horse lovers’ race their unfit/failed racehorses over 3 miles 6 furlongs of often very hard, and in some places roughish ground. 3 horses broke down the year I was in the vet car.
I went from loving it to hating it in my 20s and I worked on a much more enlightened yard than most.

And no, I don’t care for other disciplines either, at a high level when there’s money/ego at stake then the horses suffer. I think there are some very good horse people at lower levels and a lot of poor ones.

It is true in the UK anyway, that vet research has been advanced in part due to racing but so has the advent of horse insurance -whether people like it or not.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I disagree that other sports start their horses at an older age for longevity. How many foals, yearlings, 2/3yos do you see at these futurity events loose schooling. How many times have they done this at home, jumping big fences and combinations to be sold for high prices. The 4yo jumping and dressage classes put pressure on these horses to be broken, ridden away and jumping/performing higher level dressage moves as a 3yo. Mostly being forced into an outline. How many showing animals are fed to the gunnels to "look right" yet their joints are scoobied before they are 8yo. As to eventing deaths vs racing - I suspect it would actually be on par with racing % wise as there are so, so many more horses racing than eventing.

The biggest difference between racing and any other sport is because it is to wide open to the public.

I do not agree with 2yo racing. Never have, never will. The only slight saving grace for them is they can't run before the first turf meeting of the season at the end of March/start of April - the Lincoln at Doncaster is always the start of the turf season.

 

[Sandstone1]

I hardly ever watch racing anymore but being laid low by covid I did watch it yesterday. I was interested to see the virtual races. I know they will never replace racing but could they be used to help cut down the wastage of horses in racing theses days?
They could help with the publics love of gambling?
I just do not see how racing can be seen as ethical theses days. Too many horses bred too many accidents and deaths.
Do we have a right to use animals like this?
I wonder how breeders and owners can go to all the trouble expense and heartache to breed and train horses to send them out racing knowing there is a good chance each time they may not come back?

 

[TPO]

Well, it doesn't look as though you're going to get a balanced discussion!

I don't understand this comment.

Anyone who is pro racing is able to put forward their case in the same way that the "antis" have. They are able to counter any of the points raised against racing too.

A debate needs at least two sides. If somehow there aren't any pro racing people then surely that speaks volumes also?

Like another poster said I can't ever see it ending due to the vast amounts of money involved but I do hope that the general public become more aware of what it really involves.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Any sport that uses tie back or hobday ops so horses can breathe better when galloping fast, horses still fired in Ireland, foals bred to be euthanized if dam needed for a better bred foal who has lost its dam.
Flogged when on their last legs for entertainment to add a few more

There is also a huge percentage of leisure horses, show jumpers, eventers, dressage horses, show horses, hunt horses, endurance horses - the list is endless - thay have had wind ops for many various reasons - 99% of the time to improve performance.

 

[ycbm]

As to eventing deaths vs racing - I suspect it would actually be on par with racing % wise as there are so, so many more horses racing than eventing.

The last time I checked, quite a while ago now, it was 1 in 250 racing starters. Let's say things have improved a lot and it's now 1 in 300. That would mean for every single weekend of BE cross country, a horse would die on the course.

Every single weekend's eventing.

BE would be stopped, I'm pretty sure, if that was happening.




(Edited to weekend from day. )
.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Well, it doesn't look as though you're going to get a balanced discussion!

I don’t generally comment on the racing threads as I am anti racing. So thought I would on this one, as it invited debate.

 

[Sandstone1]

I was disappointed that the winning jockey in the national not only broke the use of whip rules in the finish but didnt even mention the horse in his interview. He didnt do it alone....

 

[lannerch]

There is also a huge percentage of leisure horses, show jumpers, eventers, dressage horses, show horses, hunt horses, endurance horses - the list is endless - thay have had wind ops for many various reasons - 99% of the time to improve performance.

Yup my now retired eventer for one , made a noise when cantering so I had a hobday and tie back done on him when he was 5.
And yes it did improve performance and quality of life , he’s now 19 , never ever had a comeback with it .
Was this me bring cruel?

 

[Regandal]

Other welfare concerns aside, the use of the whip on tired horses doesn’t sit well with the public. I think it was APMcCoy who suggested banning use of the whip after the final fence. That would be interesting.

 

[spacefaer]

I was disappointed that the winning jockey in the national not only broke the use of whip rules in the finish but didnt even mention the horse in his interview. He didnt do it alone....

He did - in the immediate interview while he was still on the horse

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Other welfare concerns aside, the use of the whip on tired horses doesn’t sit well with the public. I think it was APMcCoy who suggested banning use of the whip after the final fence. That would be interesting.

I have long said that all races should be run like the Conditional/Apprentice Hands and Heels series. There is no need to actually hit the horse unless its for safety reasons. "Showing" the Whip is just as effective for sending a horse forward and urging it on. A Scandinavian country does this. Whips are carried as a safety thing but are not to be used.

 

[spacefaer]

I don’t generally comment on the racing threads as I am anti racing. So thought I would on this one, as it invited debate.

That's my point .... All the replies so far have been anti and always are in this sort of "debate"

 

[Gingerwitch]

There is also a huge percentage of leisure horses, show jumpers, eventers, dressage horses, show horses, hunt horses, endurance horses - the list is endless - thay have had wind ops for many various reasons - 99% of the time to improve performance.

At a life time of misery for the horse! Would you like to constantly cough as something is in your lungs ? Just for someone's fun ?

 

[ester]

That's my point .... All the replies so far have been anti and always are in this sort of "debate"

Only if pro people don't post.

 

[Sandstone1]

He did - in the immediate interview while he was still on the horse

Well I watched that and if he did it must have been very short as I was listening out for it... He also got a 9 day ban and £400 fine for over use of the whip...

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

At a life time of misery for the horse! Would you like to constantly cough as something is in your lungs ? Just for someone's fun ?

They don't constantly cough. I have no idea where you have got that notion from but it is certainly untrue! I would far rather be able to breath properly than struggle for breath.

 

[Sandstone1]

There is also a huge percentage of leisure horses, show jumpers, eventers, dressage horses, show horses, hunt horses, endurance horses - the list is endless - thay have had wind ops for many various reasons - 99% of the time to improve performance.

As in the hunting thread there will always be a lot of what about this and what about that. Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

That's my point .... All the replies so far have been anti and always are in this sort of "debate"

so noone should reply? I think it’s mostly been civilised so far, I am glad Elf is here to provide some balance.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

At a life time of misery for the horse! Would you like to constantly cough as something is in your lungs ? Just for someone's fun ?

have to say that this is not my experience of hobdays etc

 

[lannerch]

They don't constantly cough. I have no idea where you have got that notion from but it is certainly untrue! I would far rather be able to breath properly than struggle for breath.

My old boy only ever coughed once first thing after his operation, and only if he had come out of the stable never the field, coughed a lot more before!

 

[Peglo]

As all the Aintree / Cheltenham threads go off on a tangent about whether racing (and equestrian sport in general)is cruel I thought I'd open up a new thread where people can air their views.
I genuinely love watching the racing but often feel guilty / conflicted over it.
In flat racing I think the age they start is terrible and don't know why more pressure can't be brought to change that.
I would like to see racing ( flat and NH) trial a total whip ban, they would be allowed for safety to keep a horse straight but not to hit or wave about and push a horse too far, this would at least remove the image of the horse " being flogged to death".
I would like to see more ad hoc welfare inspections of training yards ( I don't know what happens now), I absolutely believe that most yards love and care for their horses as if they were royalty but this isn't the case for all, my ex racer landed badly after jumping a hurdle at Hexham, rotated her pelvis and didn't receive vet treatment, she began refusing after that and was bullied into continuing ( back at her trainers), became increasingly aggressive and after a further 6 months was given up on and sold out of racing ( this is 2nd and 3rd hand info I pieced together after getting her and having her pelvis sorted but it fits with the horse I had in front of me who also broke a farriers leg as in so much pain from her pelvis). My work experience was in a flat yard where the horses were pretty much kept in a constant state of terror when people were around (brooms and forks waved aggressively at them upon entering stables, lots of shouting etc), the head lad said the adrenaline built more muscle and made them run faster.
I would like to see more done about the wastage level, maybe less races lead to less being bred, maybe just better plans in place by owners for life after racing and owners need a licence too and if they fail their horses then they lose their licence.
I would also like to see better stats compiled for all equine deaths so we can truly see if racing is more harmful, for example how many out of 1000 horses in training suffer a heart attack / broken leg etc compared to those in other sports and leisure horses ( mine fatally broke her femur in the field).
Sorry this is a lot of rambling but just my unorganised thoughts, feel free to add your own.

agree with all of this but would also like to see breeding done better for health. With all the ks and arthritis etc in TB’s I would like to see a movement to help with that sort of thing if it was possible.