Deciding when to back and pressure.

[Cortez]

Hmm I'm not so sure about that tbh. I see a lot more horses still sound and being ridden here in their late 20s/30s, who I know have been backed at 2 years old (as is usual in my small part of the world), than I've ever seen in the UK where they were likely backed at 3 or 4 years old.

That is my experience as well SF (also not the UK, N.America). Could people of differing opinion please tell us how they know their horses were "not ready"?

 

[montanna]

Mine was started when she turned 3. She was long reined/led out for a few months, before I got on. I didn't turn her away (on full livery and we don't have the facility here in the winter) but hacked her at weekends only until February. She now does 2 x short hacks, 1 x schooling, and 1 x lesson, is perhaps jumped once every 2 weeks (very small may I add!).

 

[Fides]

That is my experience as well SF (also not the UK, N.America). Could people of differing opinion please tell us how they know their horses were "not ready"?

Mine was weak, bum high and narrow chested

 

[amandap]

Is it true that the majority of UK horses are backed at 3-4-5? I wonder if it is.

ps. If 2 is a good age then perhaps even youger would be even better? What age is the youngest limit and how is that decided?

 

[windand rain]

Personally 4 rising 5 is the best time but again it is the owners decision. What shouldnt happen is that others should pressure them one way or other.
I have found with younger than that that you do get some benefit from working on the hard surface on long lines so on roads and tracks but lunging, riding and too much of anything is a problem. I do however think that once started they should stay in work and make progression quickly to be able to walk, trot, canter, gallop and jump so this is why I usually leave mine longer to mature so they can do more once they get going Saves boredom and finding tricks to amuse themselves if they are fully occupied once they start

 

[Meowy Catkin]

There have been studies (proper scientific ones) that showed that horses which did a bit of work at 3 had improved bone and tendon strength.

This is true, bone, muscle and sinew does respond to the stresses placed on it. Someone came on here once that had something to do with research into this area (sorry i can't find it) but they were saying that in-hand work or ponying from another horse would also have the positive physical effect. If you wanted a dressage horse, you should start from a young age (again in-hand) to teach it lateral work as this is a specific thing that they will need to do. If you want a racehorse to run on turf, turn it out on a field so it can run and move on that surface.

I found that quite interesting as at the time I'd just bought my gelding. He'd come from a very flat area and I put him out on the hillside here and he really found it hard work. Soon he adjusted to the terrain and is now very nimble and agile on steep inclines. As he will be ridden around terrain like that, I'm certain that his years of getting used to it in the field will stand him in good stead to physically cope with it under saddle.

ETA - I'd be very interested to hear people's opinions on whether they think that this horse is ready for backing or not, based on this photo (sorry he's standing on a slope). The photo was taken this Easter and he'd just turned four.

 

[Auslander]

This is true, bone and sinew does respond to the stresses placed on it. Someone came on here once that had something to do with research into this area (sorry i can't find it) but they were saying that in-hand work or ponying from another horse would also have the positive physical effect. If you wanted a dressage horse, you should start from a young age (again in-hand) to teach it lateral work as this is a specific thing that they will need to do. If you want a racehorse to run on turf, turn it out on a field so it can run and move on that surface.

I found that quite interesting as at the time I'd just bought my gelding. He'd come from a very flat area and I put him out on the hillside here and he really found it hard work. Soon he adjusted to the terrain and is now very nimble and agile on steep inclines. As he will be ridden around terrain like that, I'm certain that his years of getting used to it in the field will stand him in good stead to physically cope with it under saddle.

I wrote an article last year about preparing young stock for racing, and the vet I collaborated with said much the same, that careful preparation (lots and lots of hand walking mainly) was proven to have positive effects on bone density and tendon/ligament strength. He was at pains to point out that there was a big difference between the intensive preparation of stock destined for the track, which includes very careful nutritional management as well as the walking, and your average youngster, who may not do so well if it's worked from an early age in a way that may compromise growing tissue. He said its very hard to feed non TB young stock sufficient high nutritional value feed without them getting too heavy, because they don't metabolise it as efficiently as TB's, and with the best will in the world, not many horse owners are in a position to hand walk their youngster for an hour a day. Although he specialises in young stock preparation, and is very much an advocate of early conditioning, he wouldn't recommend it to your average horse owner.

 

[amandap]

This is true, bone and sinew does respond to the stresses placed on it. Someone came on here once that had something to do with research into this area (sorry i can't find it) but they were saying that in-hand work or ponying from another horse would also have the positive physical effect. If you wanted a dressage horse, you should start from a young age (again in-hand) to teach it lateral work as this is a specific thing that they will need to do. If you want a racehorse to run on turf, turn it out on a field so it can run and move on that surface.

I found that quite interesting as at the time I'd just bought my gelding. He'd come from a very flat area and I put him out on the hillside here and he really found it hard work. Soon he adjusted to the terrain and is now very nimble and agile on steep inclines. As he will be ridden around terrain like that, I'm certain that his years of getting used to it in the field will stand him in good stead to physically cope with it under saddle.

Yes this makes sense to me. It's not all about skeletal maturation but muscles, tendons and ligaments. Weak muscles will surely allow more spine sag (for eg.) and if the horse can't or hasn't been taught to lift it's back how can it carry the weight of a rider safely?

 

[Inthesticks]

I have a just 3 year old cob x, I do not think she is ready to break this year as she is bum high, immature, and has a very small chest. I will be sending her away for breaking, so maybe next spring or autumn but no rush.

I am not doing the long lines or biting her, I will leave that for when she gets broken, what she is doing is Horse Agility, which is helping handling, manners, spook busting and trust.

I would like to know how a horse can be 'desperate' to do something and go places? Is that not just the owners desperation to do those things, or how would you know?

 

[Slave2Magic]

Some interesting and varied replies. If it may help I have added a picture of my boy. Now I see a gangly and immature looking boy who would benefit from being left another year. ID in him I guess.

 

[amandap]

I'm no expert Slave2Magic but he looks a baby overall to me, but lovely.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

S2M - he's big, but that's not the same thing as mature. He also looks quite babyish to me. Not wanting to fully back and ride him away, doesn't mean that you can't do anything with him. There's plenty that you can do with him if you want to.

Aus - that's very interesting. Thanks.

AP - you are right, each joint is really only as strong as the sinew and muscle holding it together.

 

[Spring Feather]

I would like to know how a horse can be 'desperate' to do something and go places? Is that not just the owners desperation to do those things, or how would you know?

I assume this was directed at me since I used that phrase. Having 50 horses here of varying ages and types, for me to not know where each horse is at both mentally and physically, would make me a pretty poor horse professional. I suppose for people who don't spend every waking hour with their horses they may not be as aware as those of us who do.

 

[Fides]

ETA - I'd be very interested to hear people's opinions on whether they think that this horse is ready for backing or not, based on this photo (sorry he's standing on a slope). The photo was taken this Easter and he'd just turned four.

Hmm hard to tell if he is bum high due to the slope, or chest width due to the angle. I personally would want to see more top line before sitting as behind his withers he looks quite weak. But roughly I'd say with 4-6 weeks of long lining on hills to build up top line, he'd be OK.

He is rather gorgeous and looks like he knows it!

Yes this makes sense to me. It's not all about skeletal maturation but muscles, tendons and ligaments. Weak muscles will surely allow more spine sag (for eg.) and if the horse can't or hasn't been taught to lift it's back how can it carry the weight of a rider safely?

I wouldn't back a horse (even one at 4 or 5) that had a poor top line. When I have backed a horse I have always done a minimum of 2 weeks longlining on hills (with my own 4-6 weeks) to build up top line to allow them to carry a person. I would never just get on a horse straight off. The muscles to carry a rider do only truly come after a rider has been added to the equation but a weak youngster is unlikely to develop the muscles quickly enough to cope and then once soreness is there, the wrong muscles can develop due to coping strategies.

Diet plays a lot into it to. How many people feed a diet higher in protein when work is being started to help muscle buildup? I know a few home backed horses who weren't even fed a youngstock mix.

Again Faracat - I really can't get over how beautiful he is!

ETA my friend had a horse with KS that had to be in hard work to maintain his top line enough to cope with an SI problem. If he needed time off for any reason he had terrible back problems. He had surgery and was retired in the end but it does show that proper musculature holds the back in place.

 

[Spring Feather]

Based on the two photos given; Faracat, yours I would back this summer. S2M, I would not back your horse this year.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Thanks Fides, he does think a lot of himself. Thanks for your opinion too SF.

 

[Fides]

Thanks Fides, he does think a lot of himself. Thanks for your opinion too SF.

I've never really 'considered' Arabs before but wow, he just makes me melt...

ETA I'm gonna look really stupid now and he's not an Arab

 

[Inthesticks]

I assume this was directed at me since I used that phrase. Having 50 horses here of varying ages and types, for me to not know where each horse is at both mentally and physically, would make me a pretty poor horse professional. I suppose for people who don't spend every waking hour with their horses they may not be as aware as those of us who do.

Although I used the term - it was not aimed at anyone - I was interested to know the behaviour a horse shows when they are desperate to do things and go places, being physically and mentally mature enough to be broken is one thing I guess and being desperate to do things is another?

 

[Wagtail]

This is true, bone, muscle and sinew does respond to the stresses placed on it. Someone came on here once that had something to do with research into this area (sorry i can't find it) but they were saying that in-hand work or ponying from another horse would also have the positive physical effect. If you wanted a dressage horse, you should start from a young age (again in-hand) to teach it lateral work as this is a specific thing that they will need to do. If you want a racehorse to run on turf, turn it out on a field so it can run and move on that surface.

I found that quite interesting as at the time I'd just bought my gelding. He'd come from a very flat area and I put him out on the hillside here and he really found it hard work. Soon he adjusted to the terrain and is now very nimble and agile on steep inclines. As he will be ridden around terrain like that, I'm certain that his years of getting used to it in the field will stand him in good stead to physically cope with it under saddle.

ETA - I'd be very interested to hear people's opinions on whether they think that this horse is ready for backing or not, based on this photo (sorry he's standing on a slope). The photo was taken this Easter and he'd just turned four.

He looks very light of bone and not fully grown, so maybe would leave him. But if I were to back him I would want a very light weight jockey, not my hefty ten stone.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I'm with you. Backing early makes no sense to me. Young horses can go out and about in hand, on long reins (if safe to do so) with fit peeps and be ponyed. Tracks can be set up to increase movement for eg.

Ok I'm sure all on H&H are great, balanced riders but we are still a weight on an immature back, body and hooves. It doesn't stop with carrying weight, there's tack, learning about aids and what yougsters might be asked to do.

I realize it's been done forever and many have no problems but does that mean we should carry on? I know I will have to agree to disagee with some far more experienced than me.

Regarding your first paragraph, yes you could do those things, but if I bought a horse to ride then I want to ride it not spend a year doing those other things (or faffing about as I would call it).

Regarding your last paragraph, I view young horses who are not even upto *light* work as the type of animal who is likely to become a huge money pit for whoever owns it. Either in terms of it becoming somehow unwell or unsound, necessitating the vet / prolonged or frequent periods out of work. Or in terms of the above average time, effort and money needed to keep it healthy / sound and in work. So yes breaking in at 3 has been done for years and is fine for many horses so I do think we should carry on doing it.

Nobody wants a money pit, they're often sold on frequently or suffer low grade neglect from an owner who doesn't really want to call the vet out yet again so "wait and see" a while longer than they should, hoping the problem goes away. Those owners who do keep money pit horses long term seem to suffer themselves for it, getting dragged down emotionally or into financial difficulties. Such a horse is a mill stone round anyones neck and I cant help wondering if it might be best if they weren't here IE identified young as unlikely to be upto work and PTS. Harsh yes and I'm sure various people would like to shoot me now, but really horses aren't 'wild animals' or 'pets' first and foremost, riding or driving is at the heart of why most people are involved with horses.

 

[Wagtail]

Some interesting and varied replies. If it may help I have added a picture of my boy. Now I see a gangly and immature looking boy who would benefit from being left another year. ID in him I guess.

If I'm honest, I would probably lightly back him this year. He looks pretty strong and solid to me. I wouldn't do any proper work, just a sit on the lunge in walk and trot for five minutes and then leave until net year. But he looks easily sturdy enough to me.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I've never really 'considered' Arabs before but wow, he just makes me melt...

ETA I'm gonna look really stupid now and he's not an Arab

He is an arab! Well done on your breed identification. Most non-arab people prefer my grey one as she has a less extreme head.

Thanks for your thoughts wagtail.

 

[Wagtail]

He is an arab! Well done on your breed identification. Most non-arab people prefer my grey one as she has a less extreme head.

Thanks for your thoughts wagtail.

How tall is he? He really is stunning. I have read that arabs have denser bone than other breeds, and if that is the case then being very light would not be an issue. When do you plan to back him?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

How tall is he? He really is stunning. I have read that arabs have denser bone than other breeds, and if that is the case then being very light would not be an issue. When do you plan to back him?

I haven't measured him, but he's now about an inch taller than the grey who's 15hh. His hocks and knees are almost level with CM's (she's 15.2 and a bit), so I suspect that he might grow to a similar height to her. The thing that stands out to me with him, is how short his back is still and he's also really narrow width ways at the moment (not visible in the photo I put up, so I'll add one from the front).

At the moment I'm teaching him to wear a saddle (he wore one for the second time this weekend - he was very good apart from trying to lie down in it) so I'm working towards backing him. However we're having to go at such a slow pace compared to the grey as that is what his brain can cope with (again, not something that you can tell from a photo). I think he'll be backed at 5.

 

[windand rain]

Regarding your first paragraph, yes you could do those things, but if I bought a horse to ride then I want to ride it not spend a year doing those other things (or faffing about as I would call it).

.

Then you should buy an older horse simple dont buy a baby unless you are prepared to give it the time to be a healthy and capable adult patience is a virtue with horses

 

[Fides]

I haven't measured him, but he's now about an inch taller than the grey who's 15hh. His hocks and knees are almost level with CM's (she's 15.2 and a bit), so I suspect that he might grow to a similar height to her. The thing that stands out to me with him, is how short his back is still and he's also really narrow width ways at the moment (not visible in the photo I put up, so I'll add one from the front).

At the moment I'm teaching him to wear a saddle (he wore one for the second time this weekend - he was very good apart from trying to lie down in it) so I'm working towards backing him. However we're having to go at such a slow pace compared to the grey as that is what his brain can cope with (again, not something that you can tell from a photo). I think he'll be backed at 5.

I agree with you about the narrow chest. Mine was very like that. I think you are right about backing next year unless he seriously broadens in the next few months

 

[blitznbobs]

So when do you think I should back this girly then

she's 3 tomorrow, a holsteiner and standing about 16.2 now... broad in the chest already (but if her parents are anything to go by will be broader) and as you can see still slightly bum high...?

Blitz

 

[Wagtail]

So when do you think I should back this girly then

she's 3 tomorrow, a holsteiner and standing about 16.2 now... broad in the chest already (but if her parents are anything to go by will be broader) and as you can see still slightly bum high...?



Blitz

She looks like she may have another hand to go! I would leave her until next year.

 

[blitznbobs]

She looks like she may have another hand to go! I would leave her until next year.

I hope not!

 

[Wagtail]

I hope not!

Her withers will come up more and her chest will deepen. I really do see another hand to go! Wish I could with my filly.