Delivering the News to Trainer: You're Too Harsh

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HazuraJane

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Greetings, all. I have a nearly-four-year-old green mare who I bought three months ago. She is responsive to the point of being a touch too sensitive and getting her settled in her new living situation was challenging. De-sensitizing her to the new yard nearly did me in (previously she lived on an extremely rural property at the end of a quiet lane) as she was unused to traffic sounds, tractors, etc.

I was working with two trainers - one to work on groundwork, one to exercise, ride and bring her along in the arena.
The exercise, riding and arena work trainer is calm and extremely competent. No worries whatsoever there.

The groundwork trainer gets huge reactions from my mare ("responsive to the point of being a touch too sensitive") but the trainer's timing of dropping the pressure as soon as my mare responded was impeccable, so I kept the trainer working to desensitize the mare.
One day I was not able to be at a training session while my mare was learning to be tied (not cross-tied, just a regular tie) and when I asked how it went, the trainer told me the mare started to act up so the trainer picked up a whip and hit the ground with it.
That did not set right with me; horse tied up and a whip in play.
I was not there; I do not know how close the trainer was to the mare.

I have moved that particular trainer to the "job" of getting me ready for any riding emergencies: bolting, bucking, rearing, etc and we're using lesson horses.
Trainer has asked if there was something wrong with their interaction with my horse.
I fumbled a bit and said it was time I took over groundwork as the end result is meant to be me handling my own horse.
That was true, but not the entire reason.
The trainer is a friend and is also dogmatic and leads with the stick, not the carrot.
I'm the opposite of that.

Do I come clean with the trainer or do I let sleeping dogs lie?
 
depends on the nature of your friendship, for me.
If they are the sort of friend that you can have a good natured discussion about your inclinations vs their approach, and possibly agree to disagree without it affecting things, then go for it. With their trainer's head on they might wonder why you asked their advice when you knew you preferred doing things a different way but if you are close enough then it probably won't matter.

If you're less close, then I'd leave it be. You've found something else you can use their help with which is unlikely to end up repeating the issue, and if you want to stay on good terms then its not going to help foster a good working relationship as they might feel like you are undermining them.

JMHO. Mixing friendship with professional relationships can be tricky.
 
I think I would let sleeping dogs lie (as she's a friend) and if she's dogmatic she's unlikely to take criticism well. I'd just keep her away from your horse.
 
Well I don't understand the approach this horse has had at all. It just seems far too much has been going on with far too many people (most likely with slightly different ways of doing things) for a new horse in a new home.

I think that 'desensitizing' a young horse to it's new home sounds too full on. Why not just have one person consistently handling it, get it into the routine of turnout into fields/bring into stable/feet/groom etc... and give it time to settle rather than extra pressure?

Teaching a horse to tie up should be done calmly and if the horse needs a few sessions, so what?

I do wonder if this horse has just had too much pressure put on it?
 
You say your "trainer" rules by the stick and not the carrot; you have to ask yourself, is this really what you want for your mare?? Who sounds a sensitive little soul and this sort of continuing treatment could well ruin her longterm. Do you want a horse that learns from being ruled by fear - with the very possible result of repercussions further up the line - or a nice chilled out little horse who's learnt by having a Herd Leader she can trust, and who will willingly give you her trust back in return.

I know which I'd rather have! For what its worth, any horse of mine would be outta that place and away from a woman of this ilk before the sun sets!

Stuff the "friendship" issue, this is YOUR mare and YOU should be the one to decide how she is treated. If you are not happy, then MOVE her ASAP.

But hey, your call, your decision, your mare.............
 
I can only echo what others have said in that your horse has to come first and fair but firm, empathetic handling must be the way to go. I can’ t imagine that using a stick is at all helpful! The mare needs to trust people, not respond out of fear. But I think you know all this anyway🙂.
If this is a true “ friend” she will take your comments on board, and if she asks then you’re not forcing your opinion. The answer she gets might not be what she wants to hear but just try and separate the friendship from the professional if possible so that it doesn’t become a personal thing! Easier said than done but at the end of the day it is your horse and her welfare that have to come first and you are clearly committed to doing your best for her. Good luck.
 
milliepops said:
depends on the nature of your friendship, for me.
If they are the sort of friend that you can have a good natured discussion about your inclinations vs their approach, and possibly agree to disagree without it affecting things, then go for it. With their trainer's head on they might wonder why you asked their advice when you knew you preferred doing things a different way but if you are close enough then it probably won't matter.

If you're less close, then I'd leave it be. You've found something else you can use their help with which is unlikely to end up repeating the issue, and if you want to stay on good terms then its not going to help foster a good working relationship as they might feel like you are undermining them.

JMHO. Mixing friendship with professional relationships can be tricky.
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It is definitely tricky. Thank you for the advice.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
You say your "trainer" rules by the stick and not the carrot; you have to ask yourself, is this really what you want for your mare?? Who sounds a sensitive little soul and this sort of continuing treatment could well ruin her longterm. Do you want a horse that learns from being ruled by fear - with the very possible result of repercussions further up the line - or a nice chilled out little horse who's learnt by having a Herd Leader she can trust, and who will willingly give you her trust back in return.

I know which I'd rather have! For what its worth, any horse of mine would be outta that place and away from a woman of this ilk before the sun sets!

Stuff the "friendship" issue, this is YOUR mare and YOU should be the one to decide how she is treated. If you are not happy, then MOVE her ASAP.

But hey, your call, your decision, your mare.............
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It's not what I want for my mare, who is definitely a sensitive type!! You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned fear ruining her long term. I agree. It was a tough thing to realise that the trainer did go beyond the bounds of what I will allow. I kept hoping it wouldn't happen if I kept a close eye on it.
 
Faracat said:
Well I don't understand the approach this horse has had at all. It just seems far too much has been going on with far too many people (most likely with slightly different ways of doing things) for a new horse in a new home.

I think that 'desensitizing' a young horse to it's new home sounds too full on. Why not just have one person consistently handling it, get it into the routine of turnout into fields/bring into stable/feet/groom etc... and give it time to settle rather than extra pressure?

Teaching a horse to tie up should be done calmly and if the horse needs a few sessions, so what?

I do wonder if this horse has just had too much pressure put on it?
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It was an all-around terrible integration into the mare's new home; she'd only ever left her previous home once for an afternoon; the trailer trip was 11 hours to her current home, her previous home was so so so quiet and her current home is a hive of activity. I've taken off all pressure I hope by having the mare handled solely by me or the trainer who is calm and aware of how to treat a sensitive horse. It's a bad feeling to realise I made a mistake and the one who ultimately paid the price was my mare. I'm hopeful it won't have any lasting effects since it was only the one time and I've removed that trainer from her world. Thank you for your advice!
 
Shay said:
Come clean. You do not know the context in which the idnicent was reported to you. The least you can do is give the professional the opportunity to explain their actions.
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The trainer was the one who reported it to me; I *think* this particular trainer is suffering from job burn-out after 12 years of teaching small kids on lesson ponies. The trainer is frustrated that their students segue into lessons with other trainers with an alarming and predictable rapidity. I'm treading the thin line between being transparent about my reasons and kicking someone who is already down. It's a tough call.
 
Wizpop said:
I can only echo what others have said in that your horse has to come first and fair but firm, empathetic handling must be the way to go. I can’ t imagine that using a stick is at all helpful! The mare needs to trust people, not respond out of fear. But I think you know all this anyway🙂.
If this is a true “ friend” she will take your comments on board, and if she asks then you’re not forcing your opinion. The answer she gets might not be what she wants to hear but just try and separate the friendship from the professional if possible so that it doesn’t become a personal thing! Easier said than done but at the end of the day it is your horse and her welfare that have to come first and you are clearly committed to doing your best for her. Good luck.
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Thank you for your reply. The trainer in question has a one-size-fits-all mentality about horses and has limited, if any, experience with horses that are of a bloodline and degree of sensitivity different than a grade lesson horse. In future I may tell my reasons but at present the trainer is already bridling at any hint that I consider my horse above/not allowed to be handled with big gestures. My mare requires the smallest of corrections before she responds which is my good luck. Hitting the ground with a whip whilst she was tied must have sent her to the moon and it truly ticks me off to think of it.
 
How did the horse react to the trainer's approach?

How /has the horse been developed as a result of that approach?

We can all sit here all day long giving opinions, but really what you thought of the approach is largely irrelevant compare to how the horse reacted to it. Sometimes carrot works; sometimes stick. It would be foolish to object to either as a blanket approach.
 
I don't understand why a 3 yr old horse needs 2 trainers as well as her owner. What on earth is she destined to do in the future? I would expect a sensitive 3 yr old mare to be allowed to take her time to settle into a new yard with new companions and a new owner, without being pressured. If she were mine, I would concentrate on building a relationship with her, so that she trusts *you* her owner enough to be the one who introduces her to new things that she can be confident won't harm her.
I would imagine that 2 trainers are confusing both you and the youngster.
 
The thought of all this makes my head spin.
You have bought a young horse but do not appear to have confidence in you own skills, and are leaning on the 'dreaded friend', who may or may not have the right skills.
Most equines need consistency in their training, some are smarter than others and will go off piste but tying up should no be made a drama, and if you are uncertain about you friends methods I would call a halt now. You just say you want to do it all yourself now or send the youngster a way to a good yard where there will be a consistent approach in hand and ridden.
 
As to whether to explain to your friend why you have backed her away from direct contact with your horse, I think MP has it pretty much spot on up thread.

As for the slightly bizarre tie up discipline method....well it's not something I have ever come across before, and can't imagine how it would be useful particularly - sounds like everything is very pressurised for this young mare.
 
I have moved that particular trainer to the "job" of getting me ready for any riding emergencies: bolting, bucking, rearing, etc and we're using lesson horses.
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I'd be fascinated to read how she's doing this on horses which don't bolt, buck, or rear?
 
OP, IMO you have had some useful responses and also fairly dogmatic ones, which you've handled with a polite response. It's nice of you not to want to kick someone when they are down, too, although clearly your horse has to take priority. I'd say trust your instincts.
 
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I would be seriously pissed off friend or not, using a whip around a young sensitive horse while it's tied up is really stupid and could have had disastrous results, I have a 15 year old Arab and if you waved a whip or hit the ground with it while he was tied up he would have a melt down he is a sensitive reactive type, and something I would never dream of doing.
 
Without wishing to derail, YCBM my trainer will work with me to give me the skills to handle my horse in future possibly challenging situations.
For example mine ever so occasionally finds 5th gear and when she does she can get a bit rude about it. So we spent a lot of time riding the canter, working on breaks etc so that as and when she tanks, I am equipped with the skills to deal with it. All practiced when she is in normal mode of not putting in even a smidgen more than minimum effort.
So you can learn how handle a situation without having to be in it (As I'm sure you know anyway!)
Although prepping for bucking/rearing/bolting seems weird - most horses if handled and trained correctly won't do that. Never a bad idea to know what to do if it happens but it seems a strange thing to train for to deal with.
 
HazuraJane said:
It's not what I want for my mare, who is definitely a sensitive type!! You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned fear ruining her long term. I agree. It was a tough thing to realise that the trainer did go beyond the bounds of what I will allow. I kept hoping it wouldn't happen if I kept a close eye on it.
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Sounds like deep down in your heart-of-hearts, you KNOW, just know, that this isn't the right regime for her.

Yes it will continue to happen unfortunately; these sorts of people who "train" horses this way won't change their ways just on a whim - and won't act on a friend's expressed opinion either - even if you voice your concerns and she "agrees" to your face, you can be sure that when your back is turned she'll continue just the same as she is and it may even make her more inclined to take it out on your mare.

Move her!
 
Pinkvboots said:
I would be seriously pissed off friend or not, using a whip around a young sensitive horse while it's tied up is really stupid and could have had disastrous results, I have a 15 year old Arab and if you waved a whip or hit the ground with it while he was tied up he would have a melt down he is a sensitive reactive type, and something I would never dream of doing.
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Yes, I have to say that as much as I tried to read it impartially, I couldn't help putting my sensitive young mare in the place of the OP's when reading and wincing at the tie up training description. She would get very upset by an approach like that
 
teacups said:
OP, IMO you have had some useful responses and also fairly dogmatic ones, which you've handled with a polite response. It's nice of you not to want to kick someone when they are down, too, although clearly your horse has to take priority. I'd say trust your instincts.
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Yes, definitely the first folks to respond have a more even-handed response vs. those who piled on later in the responses. I probably should have mentioned that the desensitizing took place three times for around five to ten minutes - and only because my mare was attempting to jump out of her stall when a tractor went by, or rearing/backing up/shying when the property wasn't absolutely dead silent. It was an untenable situation and she needed to learn to trust me. Now I can lead her around with a very loose line and she's taking the strange sights and sounds in stride, so a good outcome.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Sounds like deep down in your heart-of-hearts, you KNOW, just know, that this isn't the right regime for her.

Yes it will continue to happen unfortunately; these sorts of people who "train" horses this way won't change their ways just on a whim - and won't act on a friend's expressed opinion either - even if you voice your concerns and she "agrees" to your face, you can be sure that when your back is turned she'll continue just the same as she is and it may even make her more inclined to take it out on your mare.

Move her!
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The trainer isn't allowed near my mare anymore. I did make that clear. My mare is accustomed to the pace and the sounds of the yard now, and is a calm girl (still young, but calm.) Thank you for your insight.
 
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