Denman UR in Aon Chase..

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First mistake, he got too close, second, took off too soon. Surely its the jockey's job to get the horse in the right place for take off?


They are racing not show jumping. It is not about placing horses but about from point A to point B faster than the others. This requires economy of effort to have energy for the finish. Some horses find it easier to stand off, others use less energy getting close to keep momentum when not on a perfect spot. The jockey has a split second to weigh up the best option and the safe one isn't always the right one. Ground lost by playing safe has to be made up but too long a stride uses energy so it is not that simple. When the horse comes off the bridle the options are reduced as the stride is less adjustable.
In the Hennessy Denman was carrying Ruby more than he was AP today. In November he was still tanking turning into the straight and would have had these horses in trouble. Today he didn't look as bright in his face.
Also I am sure Ruby is not going to put his riding of the last on Master Minded as his finest hour. He, like AP, is brilliant but human!!
 
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And Ruby just had a big mistake on Master Minded and survived by the skin of his teeth. Wonder if he'll be doubted now *rolls eyes*
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But my God, what a ride he gave him before that, took my breath away, absolutely superb
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And give Ruby his due, he admitted it was his fault, top man.
 
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I was shouting at the telly for AP to just leave Denman to jump and stop pushing into fences

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Ditto this 100%.

Sometimes he niggled, and sometimes he sat quiet. I think it was a bit confusing for Denman.
He is not the easiest horse, in that he likes to be in charge, and both Sam and Ruby always rode him quietly.
I watched the race specifically to see how he rode him, and I was never comfortable, and I don't think Denman was comfortable either.

I just don't think AP and he are suited, and I would have said the same even if he had won by a mile.

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Yep, totally agree with you Dubs.
 
I came in from being out and heard the comments - went to CH4+1 and managed to catch the race. I have to say I had been a little apprehensive about AP riding himas I just think for some reason after races i have watched Denman in, Sam just seems to be suited to him - he never really seems to move and doesn't get at him and the horse just seems to accelerate away.

I always think APs riding is a bit more aggressive although i do think he did seem to be sitting quietly for the first half. I just wonder whether he started pushing before it was really necessary?

The first mistake i thought looked rather unfortunate actually as D did seem to slip a fair bit trying to save himself. I do think that knocked his confidence and he almost panic-jumped the next. Hindsight's a wonderful thing but i think (as JF said afterwards) maybe AP should have just taken a bit of a pull to try settle him again?

I know there will have been immense pressure on him and maybe it could work in AP and Denman's favour for the GC after knowing what can happen when a mistake occurs so next time he'll know maybe how to ride a bit differently?

I am just glad when all finish safely. I was dreading something to happen with the build up just to this race today. I don't think Denman's confidence will be knocked - he jumped the final fences really really well on his own after all!!!
 
Wizoz. a) So do you want AP to sit quiet or help the the horse? I'm sure he would love to know!
b) I am not sure why the ride on Master Minded was so superb. The horse jumped and travelled comfortably and had the (inferior) opposition in trouble turning out of the back. Ruby saw a very long stride at the 2nd last and was indecisive at the last. Not down in my book as ride of the week.
c) Denman didn't go a yard for Ruby at Kempton last year. It was his 1st run back after a hard race (Gold Cup that he won). He had a hard race in the Hennessy. Is this significant?
d) Sam gave him a very positive ride when he won the Gold Cup. He put the gun to his head a very long way from home and the horse answered every question so he can be given a positive ride.
e) If the horse isn't travelling you cannot just sit there and hope. AP was sitting quiet when he could but had to niggle at times to keep the momentum. To me it was ominous that he didn't pick up the bit until after the 2nd fence, just like at Kempton.
 
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I don't like Denman so much anyway, he has none of Kautos charisma and class.
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Wash your mouth out!!
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Ahhh Oldvic, i'm not gonna spar with you, you're obviously an AP fan so it won't matter what I say, but I will answer.

With regards to sitting quiet or helping out, you don't always have to push for a stride to the fence, he could have taken a pull?

Masterminded travelled and jumped bl00y well in my opinion, I do agree that he saw a long one at the second last but the horse answered, and as for the last, Ruby has already put his hands up for that one!

The best race that I saw Denman run was the Hennessey with Sam, when they won it. Ruby had broken his collarbone, so that is why Sam had the ride. It was the most foot perfect round i've ever seen, he jumped EVERY fence out of his stride, never made a blunder and all Sam had to do was sit and guide.

Today, I think AP's niggling annoyed/confused Denman, he's used to the quiet ride, Sorry if you disagree.
 
I rest my case on everything I said on the previous thread.......... AP did exactly what I was worried he'd do, and Denman didn't cope........

But you know, I wish he hadn't, and that he's given him the perfect ride. I love Denman, and I hate seeing horses messed about like that.
 
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I don't like Denman so much anyway, he has none of Kautos charisma and class.
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Sorry Dubs but I agree
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I like Denman but nowhere near as much as KS
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Yes I am an AP fan. I am also an admirer of Sam and Ruby. They are all super riders who use their heads and think about what they have done and learn from it. I agree that Denman was extraordinary that year but in those days he tended to be very strong and there was no option but to hang on and go with him. Maybe nowadays he sometimes saves himself a little particularly when he is not 100% fit.
Yes Master Minded travelled and jumped beautifully but that is normal, not jockey inspired. My point about the long one at the 2nd last was that AP was critisized for going for a forward stride at the cross fence so why is that worse than going for a really long one 2 out when you already have the race won?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I dare say AP might have taken a pull if he could turn back the clock but when you have ground to make up and the other horse is going better it is probably the 2nd choice. Winning is not always about taking the less risky option.
 
QR Totally agree with Wizoz & Dubs. AP rode him exactly as I feared he would. I'm also gutted - I just hope Denman can bounce back for the Gold Cup.

However there will be one person smiling tonight - my boss, the owner of Tricky Trickster....!!
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I'll certainly be backing him e/w for the GC!
 
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I don't like Denman so much anyway, he has none of Kautos charisma and class.
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Sorry Dubs but I agree
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I like Denman but nowhere near as much as KS
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However there will be one person smiling tonight - my boss, the owner of Tricky Trickster....!!
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I'll certainly be backing him e/w for the GC!

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Will he be going for the GC and GN then?
 
I don't think Denman looked the best in his coat today. In his Telegraph pic its very dull, that growing out clip look that chestnuts can get so badly, maybe he wasn't 100% at the top of his game to start with, but on paper he should still have won easily, even handicapped by having someone as hopeless as AP on board
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...(that was for JH).
 
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I don't think Denman looked the best in his coat today. In his Telegraph pic its very dull, that growing out clip look that chestnuts can get so badly, maybe he wasn't 100% at the top of his game to start with, but on paper he should still have won easily, even handicapped by having someone as hopeless as AP on board
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...(that was for JH).

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You are VERY brave!
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You are also very funny!
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I expected Denman to win today as the competition really wasn't that good but I think he started to look tired after the first circuit and wonder if that was down to a hard race in the Hennessey, where he really didn't go well on the first circuit. Harry Findlay has the same opinion re. Hennessey - read the interview in today's Guardian.The comparison with Sam Thomas falling with him at Aintree shown on C4 was interesting.
 
I don't know enough about any of the jockeys to be a 'fan' of any as such I guess you just judge it on what you've seen and what results have come of certain people's riding.

I found it interesting that Francome et al seemed to make similar comments as posters here about APs riding style maybe not being suited to a horse like Denman.

I hope for the horse's sake they they make the right decision for the GC i would hate to see anyone/any horse end up injured. That goes for any race but I think particularly with these two great horses things run smoothly.

I am still in 'camp Denman' though, as good a horse Kauto is there's just something about Denman. I don't know what it is. ooh, can see some t-shirt printing going on here "Team Denman!" here i come! Lol
 
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I don't think Denman looked the best in his coat today. In his Telegraph pic its very dull, that growing out clip look that chestnuts can get so badly, maybe he wasn't 100% at the top of his game to start with, but on paper he should still have won easily, even handicapped by having someone as hopeless as AP on board
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...(that was for JH).

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You are VERY brave!
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You are also very funny!
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*looks unamused*
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OK am gonna have to have my say too! Am a big Denman/AP and Ruby fan!! But this is how I see it;-

1. People who saw the horse in the paddock have been quoted as saying he looked 'burly' and not as hard fit ashe should have done.

2. Those crying for the reinstatement of Sam Thomas - was the blunder today not virtually identical to that at Aintree when he was under ST?

3. Yes Ruby and Master Minded made it look easy apart from one shocking blunder BUT it is easy to look an outstanding jock on a talented horse at the top of his game - if a horse isn't quite right/on the ball on aparticular day that same combination can look like muppets! IF Denman was under par my heart bleeds for McCoy - what s*** luck, because a bad run was always going to have the anti AP club rubbing their hands with glee.

4. Denman should have been out of sight of those horses today - does no-one else think he just didn't seem to be able to seamlessly move up a gear the way he normally does?

5. Finally, Ruby missed on Master Minded, If McCoy missed on Denman (and I think he would have admitted if he felt the mistake was his as he is his own harshest critic) - is it unacceptable for a pro jockey to make a mistake?? Those of us on this forum who jump/have jumped how many times have you missed your jerk showjumping? How long do you think the stride of a racehorse doing 30+mph compared to your bouncy little SJ stride - three possibly 4 or more times as long? I have made quite a few mistakes in my time - let him without sin cast the first stone etc etc.....

Anyway that's all that springs to mind for now.

Am not convinced that the mistake was down to the ride AP gave not suiting Denman. My gut instinct was that Denman just wasn't right today, and the worry is that if he was only slightly below par he still should have trounced the opposition!
Hopefully he is sound after that near-miss and they can rectify any problems before Cheltenham!
 
I agree with minesadouble. Denman was 20 lbs better than his opponents today, he shouldn't have been under pressure going to the 4th last, he should have been 5 lengths clear at that stage. The fact that he couldn't shake off Niche Market says (to me anyway) that he was struggling.

AP rode him fine, the first circuit was pretty much textbook...

If Denman had blundered at the last fence while clear of the field (like Ruby and MasterMinded) he would have won as well I dare say, and the last fence blunder would have been forgotten.

Fiona
 
A P missed and the horse was not used to it. If you watch the race again, you will see that he drops the contact while pushing for a long one (at the fence before the fall). He did not need to push as the horse was on a good one. The horse then lost confidence and made a whopper of a mistake at the next. That said, AP is a genius and I suspect he will not make the same mistake twice. I would not factor him out of the GC just yet...
 
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I want to go and bang some heads against some brick walls whilst screaming "14 time champion jockey"!
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And right there is your answer, AP has to be determined and tenacious to achieve that total and you see him riding the lazy old donkey in the seller tailed off a mile by the first to a convincing win at then end, because the horse has not got a lot between it's ears and he is still hungry for the wins. Yes he is successful on quirky talented horses but a lot of them he has ridden since novices and helped in their education.

The likes of Denman however have a lot between their ears and like a lot of athletes at the very top of their game, like to do things his own way and when they are dictated to it can throw them off track. Not all Jockeys however brilliant will get on with all horses and the clash is more likely with talented horses like this.

I've lost count of the talented horses Richard Dunwoody put on the ground, Dessie, Florida Pearl etc, simply through dictating to them, yet on lesser animals who needed that style he was effective.

It remains to be seen if this is a clash of personalities/styles but Denman mine I would err on the side of caution with the gold cup looming swallow my pride and change back.
 
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