Denman UR in Aon Chase..

Surely if the horse is below par, it is up to the jockey to take that into account and NOT ride for a miracle stride on him? AP tried to ride a tiring horse for two long shots, neither came off and the horse made mistakes.
As far as jumping on the first circuit goes, there is never going to be a problem when Denman is full of running. Go back and look at the middle of the Hennessy when he was jumping out of Ruby's hands, and then the end of the Hennessy, when he was not on a perfect shot (3rd last & 2nd last), Ruby let him pop.
Denman's greatest strength is his ability to maintain a superior cruising speed, under even a heavy weight, or at the end of a race, that leaves his rivals out on their feet. He doesn't get faster, the rest can't live with him.
However, that cruising speed also governs how the horse jumps. If he's travelling still full of running, them he will take the jockey to a long stride, as he did at the cross fence. The horse's decision, not the jockey's.
If however, the horse is even slightly tiring, he's already pretty much at his optimum; I don't believe the horse has speed gears at the end of his races, to me he's more like Carvills Hill was, so to push for more on a horse that is already giving everything, is asking for trouble.

I've watched Denman in every race he's had, I think he's awesome. But his way of running and jumping is always going to be his downfall at the end of a race if (and it's a big if) another horse can live with him, and that horse also has speed.
I think AP will always push for that last bit out of a horse, that's why he has won so many races. That is not a criticism, but fact. However, doing it on a horse that has no more to give is where his rides look ugly and go wrong. Like yesterday.
It makes no odds if what happened to Denman was whether he was tired because of not being right, or tiring as he can do, either way the jockey on top should know what he's sitting on and ride accordingly.
 
Just to add a little more to the debate Brough Scott in today's Sunday Times quotes Ruby as saying after the Hennessy of Denman "he needs blinkers" - so maybe Denman doesn't have the heart for the job anymore???
 
AP DID let him pop 4 out and the horse made a mistake. He was looking to pop 3 out and the horse picked up a stride early just like he did with Sam. Niche Market was coming back at Denman turning in, that is why AP was looking back so much as he knew he hadn't got enough horse under him to kick on and in theory he should have been cruising. The horse was emptying on him but it didn't look obvious as he wasn't pushing Denman's ears off. Denman has run badly for Ruby in the past too.
 
I saw it totally differently........... AP pushed for a long one 4 out and the horse chipped in a short one, then AP pushed for a long one 3 out, Denman tried to answer the call and the horse ended up walking through the fence and AP hit the deck.

I'm just so glad the horse is OK.

I guess those of you that don't see AP can do any wrong will view it differently to those of us that watch him as we see it.

ETA, sorry, didn't mean that last bit to sounds so harsh........
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is interesting that the likes of Brough Scott who watched the race from the doctor's car so from very close up was anxious that the horse wasn't going as well as he should after the cross fence.
To quote him talking about the fact that the Nicholls team have 5 weeks to get him right "The one thing they won't do is blame the jockey. That is for Dumbos.". They have just been talking about it on ATR and Jim McGrath said similar. In fact all the racing press that I have read agree that Denman was having an off day for what ever reason and it was not jockey error.
I have enough respect for AP's ability not to damn him for not being perfect 100% of the time just as I would not damn Ruby for his error yesterday. Horses are not machines and to blame the jockey on this occasion is incorrect from what I saw - and incidentally I was very disappointed that Sam was jocked off as I felt that was wrong. In hindsight I am glad he was as everyone would have been unfairly baying for his blood and he has had more than enough of that. I hope people don't try to destroy AP in the same way. If you heard AP's post race summing up of a horse you would realise that he has great feel and affinity for a horse. His job is to take risks and life will tell you that not all risks work. That doesn't mean we should not try - with no risk life would be very dull!!
 
Who is damning AP? I have said he's a great jockey throughout.

I'm saying it like it is, the same way it was Ruby's error on Master Minded.
If you have stars in your eyes where AP's concerned, that is your judgement clouded, not mine.

As far as risk taking goes, if you think that extends to being OK to f**king up enough to put a horse on the floor (or nearly as in this case), then we'll never be on the same wavelength.
 
First, there is no need to be rude. As I tried to explain I am not starry eyed about AP and if my judgement is clouded then so is that of the racing's great and good - Mick Fitz has just been on too saying it exactly as I saw it and explaining what was happening and that it was a mishap. I think Mick has forgotten more about race-riding than you or I will ever know.
Second, the experts don't consider he f**ked up any more than I do and BS, JM and MF among others are sensible people who say things as they see them. Opinions worth respecting I think.
No horseman likes seeing horses fall but it happens. Sometimes someone is to blame, sometimes not but that doesn't mean that we should never push the boundaries. Everybody (human and equine) learns by trial and error. Sadly we don't learn so much when things go right. We just have to hope that we learn when things go wrong and that no harm is done in the process. Being defensive can be as damaging as being positive. You don't know which until you try.
 
I was worried about AP riding Denman, but I have to say that I think that round the first circuit all looked really well. He might not have got as far in front as we were all expecting, but, by and large, he did jump well.

However, and I will quote BS in the Times too - ' McCoys three push crescendo into a jump is a style different from the quieter, more wrapped round Ruby Walsh system' and in my eyes this is what perhaps didn't work so well when the horse was really tiring towards the end of the race. Its funny how we all see it so differently, but I reckon he did push for his 'usual' long one, and the horse didn't have the petrol to respond.

We will never know if it would have been different with either RW or ST in the plate, perhaps not.. However, this is my opinion, I am no race rider myself, but I am a horsewoman, and this is how I read the race.
 
Oldvic, I listened to Mick Fitz as well......... he said that AP went long and the horse didn't pick up...... which is precisely what I am saying.........

I'm arguing the point as I see it, I'm not spuriously claiming that everyone agrees with me when they don't. As far as I'm concerned that's a losing argument.

I said in the previous thread what I thought would happen with AP on Denman, and it did. So I believe I read it right.

You don't.

I'll agree to disagree with you.
 
What Mick actually said was that AP asked Denman to lengthen towards 4 out and when he felt there was no response he sat which is what jockeys do. He then asked him to close the gap and again when there was no response he sat and Denman took off too far away.

Bustermartin - it is easy to make a quote fit what we think if we only quote part of a sentence so I will complete it for you.
"True,McCoy's three-push crescendo into a jump is style different from the quieter, more wrapped around Ruby Walsh system, but at fence after fence horse and rider flowed in and over in solid unison. As they swept off towards the second circuit the pair seemed a perfect match.". This puts a different slant on the quote, particularly when you read in the previous paragraph "Some armchair riders will probably start questioning McCoy's suitability to Denman's saddle but such suggestions are rubbish.". Similar to what he said in the Racing Post.
He also goes on to say that Ruby said the horse needed blinkers after the Hennessy. An interesting thought. Fatigue shouldn't have been a factor against inferior opposition and Paul Nicholls said he didn't blow much.
XDebsX You can see the race on the Racing Post website but you have to pay.
 
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What Mick actually said was that AP asked Denman to lengthen towards 4 out and when he felt there was no response he sat which is what jockeys do. He then asked him to close the gap and again when there was no response he sat and Denman took off too far away.


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*slaps head in frustration*

Yes, he stopped pushing when he thought he was about to pick up at the 4th fence out, except Denman chipped a stride in. He created the problem by pushing, if he'd let him come to the fence the stride was there........
Then 3 out, he did the same, except Denman tried to pick up for him instead of chipping in, couldn't make it from where he was asked, and walked through it.
He was ONLY sat still when the horse either left the ground to jump, or he thought he was about to leave the ground to jump. And to be fair, even the most inept of jockeys don't push in those circumstances.

If you know about racing, you'll know very well that it's not policy to criticise AP publicly. He didn't even get a whisper of criticism for his tantrum performance when Valiramix fell.

There's no point whatsoever you using what the pundits say.......... they won't tell it like it is, except perhaps Chapman, and he's had to stop because he gets into grief.

I know what I saw, and all the stars in your eyes won't change my view.

So, as I said before, I'll agree to disagree.
 
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There's no point whatsoever you using what the pundits say.......... they won't tell it like it is, except perhaps Chapman, and he's had to stop because he gets into grief.



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Immediately after the race John Francome actually had the balls to say that AP wasn't the right jockey for Denman.

IMHO, people are taking this a bit too personally.
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I think AP is an amazing jockey - a legend in our life time.
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But, as horse riders, we all know that even the most capable rider can come across a horse they simply can't get a tune out of.
Denman appears to be one of those horses...

He never really looked happy or fluent in the race, and even a complete novice could see that AP tried pushing him into some jumps, and sat quietly at others. No consistancy, and almost blind panic at the end, when he kept looking round and pushing on.

Again imho, Denman is a cruiser and a stayer, and wins his races by outlasting his tiring opponents. Like an automatic Range Rover, you simply put him into drive, and steer.
He is a different kettle of fish to the usual multi geared, sports car type, racehorses.

I am not saying AP is a bad jockey. I just thing he is the wrong one for Denman...
 
Honestly Dubs i think we were watching a different race!! I thought he was happy and fluent right up until the mistake, and i don't think AP gave him mixed signals at all (not just saying that cos its AP, i geniunely believe that). And Paul Nicholl's himself has described how lazy Denman is - you have to keep going at him to keep him running, you can't just sit there and steer... He's also heavy in the hand so a tricky ride. And i think you're slightly putting words in Francomes's mouth!!
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I can't remember exactly what he said about it (i remember him commenting on whether AP suited Denman after the race) but he certainly didn't say "AP wasn't the right jockey for Denman".
 
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Honestly Dubs i think we were watching a different race!! I thought he was happy and fluent right up until the mistake, and i don't think AP gave him mixed signals at all (not just saying that cos its AP, i geniunely believe that). And Paul Nicholl's himself has described how lazy Denman is - you have to keep going at him to keep him running, you can't just sit there and steer... He's also heavy in the hand so a tricky ride. And i think you're slightly putting words in Francomes's mouth!!
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I can't remember exactly what he said about it (i remember him commenting on whether AP suited Denman after the race) but he certainly didn't say "AP wasn't the right jockey for Denman".

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I have watched Denman in every race he has ever run in, apart from Aintree when he fell. I recorded that, but haven't the heart to watch it...
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I just wasn't happy with the way he was going from the off. My OH's and daughters perforated eardrums will bear testament to that....
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Seriously, if you watch the race over and over, you will see the mixed signals...

Sorry, you are correct; JF didn't come right out and say that AP wasn't suited to Denman, but he did allude to that, by comparing riding styles between AP, and Sam and Ruby.

At the end of the day, it's all about opinions and nothing we say will make any difference.
AP will be riding Denman in the Gold Cup. I hope to god he practises on him first!
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Nice to have a good old debate about it isn't it?
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I was just thinking that - usually if you disagree with someone on this website you get abuse and all sorts
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Nice to actually discuss and debate things without having to scrap about it *wipes brow* And we're in the same camp really - Team Denman!!
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Perhaps you should watch the Aintree race that Denman fell in. It was replayed on C4 on Saturday and the jumping pattern was similar to the Aon fall, and with a jockey who had ridden the horse before.
 
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Perhaps you should watch the Aintree race that Denman fell in. It was replayed on C4 on Saturday and the jumping pattern was similar to the Aon fall, and with a jockey who had ridden the horse before.

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I can't!
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I am too much of a wuss!
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Yes I had heard that actually, and will try and get round to watching it this week, and will let you know my expert opinion afterwards...
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I was just thinking that - usually if you disagree with someone on this website you get abuse and all sorts
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Nice to actually discuss and debate things without having to scrap about it *wipes brow* And we're in the same camp really - Team Denman!!
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Abuse?? On here??
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The thing is, all we can give, are our opinions.
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Love or loathe AP, and the Denman/AP connection, we can disagree til the cows come home, but it won't change anything, so it's pointless falling out over it.

Nothing is set in stone, and you are correct. We are on the same team!
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I am still scouring google for 'Team Denman' merchandise, but no joy....
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First mistake, he got too close, second, took off too soon. Surely its the jockey's job to get the horse in the right place for take off?

Will AP get the ride in the Gold Cup now?

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Let's hope connections see sense and put his regular jockey back on.

Farce.
 
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here you go dubs... not quite team though..

http://shop.jockeyclubracing.co.uk/denman-gold-cup-08-t-shirt-143-p.asp

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Aww, thanks!
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I want one with 'Team Denman' though...
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You would think that some bright spark would have realised that they could make a few pennies from producing 'Team Denman' and 'Team Kauto' merchandise, in the run up to the GC. Where are all the entrepreneurs nowadays??
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First mistake, he got too close, second, took off too soon. Surely its the jockey's job to get the horse in the right place for take off?

Will AP get the ride in the Gold Cup now?

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Let's hope connections see sense and put his regular jockey back on.

Farce.

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Connections have confirmed that AP still has the ride for the GC...
 
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First mistake, he got too close, second, took off too soon. Surely its the jockey's job to get the horse in the right place for take off?

Will AP get the ride in the Gold Cup now?

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Let's hope connections see sense and put his regular jockey back on.

Farce.

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Connections have confirmed that AP still has the ride for the GC...

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Really, really sorry to read this. And feel the connections are letting the horse down very badly. It will be the end of a stunning career.
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finally watched it just now online, i'm no expert but i couldn't see anything wrong at all until the first blunder, not sure how anyone can criticise AP's riding up to that point? yes, he got a bit close to that one but I think if he hadn't stumbled/knucked over in front a bit on landing it wouldn't have looked as bad, didn't look as if he hit the fence hard. the Denman-shaped hole in the next one was a bit different... horse a bit underconfident after blunder + not great spot again? (i couldn't tell from camera angle and other horse in the way though)
 
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here you go dubs... not quite team though..

http://shop.jockeyclubracing.co.uk/denman-gold-cup-08-t-shirt-143-p.asp

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Aww, thanks!
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I want one with 'Team Denman' though...
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You would think that some bright spark would have realised that they could make a few pennies from producing 'Team Denman' and 'Team Kauto' merchandise, in the run up to the GC. Where are all the entrepreneurs nowadays??
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*runs off with idea and to get t hirts printed up*
 
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here you go dubs... not quite team though..

http://shop.jockeyclubracing.co.uk/denman-gold-cup-08-t-shirt-143-p.asp

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Aww, thanks!
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I want one with 'Team Denman' though...
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You would think that some bright spark would have realised that they could make a few pennies from producing 'Team Denman' and 'Team Kauto' merchandise, in the run up to the GC. Where are all the entrepreneurs nowadays??
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*runs off with idea and to get t hirts printed up*

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LOL!
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I will be your first customer!
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I'm a huge fan of Ruby Walsh. He seems to ride more big race winners than AP, who rides more total winners but spends a lot of time pushing moderate horses to win. Different horses respond to different styles, good horses generally know they are good and don't like their style being altered. Hopefully AP can rise to the challenge and adjust his style to get the best results out of Denman in the Gold Cup but I have to say I think the chance of him forgetting this and pushing him into the final fences in the heat of the moment and dropping the contact and falling are quite high.

Why is Sam not riding in the Gold Cup?
 
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Why is Sam not riding in the Gold Cup?

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A combination of things according to Harry Findlay.
Sam has left Ditcheat, so is no longer 'employed' by Paul Nicholls, though that is a poor excuse imho, as AP isn't 'employed' by PN either...

The other reason is that Harry Findlay is reported to have said something along the lines of it's fitting that the two best horses in the GC, will have the two best jockeys....
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