Deposit paid on horse that's not fit- long! Sorry

[Rlm]

Thanks, I have registered with bhs today so I'll call them on Monday. I'm also waiting for the vets report, I'll go from there then. Thanks

 

[Clodagh]

If you haven't picked him up yet surely you could just leave him where is is, write off the money you have paid out so far and leave the owner to deal with it. However I am sure legal title hasn't transferred to you as you haven't paid the balance, but what you would spend trying to get it back would probably outweigh the amount (unless it was thousands).
Please someone get a vet to look at him properly, though, poor thing. I am always impressed by vets with x ray vision.

 

[paddi22]

please get an xray done before you write the horse off. I'd be wary of a vet who would diagnose a joint issue without xray. a companion home might sound like the fairest thing but the horse could have pain or arthritic issues with the injury and retirement for the next 20 odd years mightnt be the fairest option.
what a horrible situation for you, so sorry about it. really hope it gets resolved.

 

[Rlm]

I've already got the horse. The payment remainder is due at the end of the month To be honest, I'm not bothered about getting my money back,might don't want to have to get him pts, it's not the money but I don't want to make that decision. Plus, if I don't fully own the horse, how can I decide to do that. Confused. I will have to get legal advice on Monday. I just want her to come and pick him up so I can put this mess behind me

 

[L&M]

Sadly part of being a 'responsible' owner IS 'having to make that decision' - sorry to sound brutal but if you are not prepared to do that with this horse, or any other further down the road, then maybe horse ownership is not for you.

What you need to first resolve is whether you are the owner before any decisions can be made.

Good luck and will be interested to hear the outcome legally.

 

[Booboos]

You may want to clarify whether you paid a deposit or a part payment. Usually people pay a deposit for the horse to be taken off the market while they arrange a vetting. If the horse passes the vetting the agreed price is paid, if not the deposit is usually returned. If you paid a part payment then I think you may owe the rest of the money regardless of the current state of the horse's health.

And sadly, as above. If it is your horse you need to sort out its future. The only secure options are either to pay for grass livery or to have it PTS. Expecting someone to take an injured 5 year old as a companion for the next 15-20 years is very unrealistic.

 

[suzysparkle]

This is a very odd situation and definitely legal advice is needed here. I wouldn't have thought ownership changed hands until full payment is made. If that's the case then you should be able to return the Horse.

If however it transpires that the Horse is indeed yours then you absolutely need to get a proper vet investigation done. I just can't believe a vet would make a diagnosis like that without an X-Ray. If they are adamant then you need a 2nd opinion. Re insurance, yes it would be covered as it was an accident. It's only illness which isn't covered for the first 14 days. Was the Horse insured at the time it happened?

If after a thorough investigation the Horse will never be sound then the kindest thing (unless you have loads of grazing and money!) is to PTS. As someone above has said you must be capable of making that decision as a Horse owner. Far too many ride-able Horses can't find homes let alone those that can't be ridden. Selling on may also result in the Horse being drugged to get through a vetting, sold on and basically leading a miserable life. This is not fair on the Horse and many don't take to being companions, especially at that age.

 

[Rlm]

Thanks. I will update after taking some advice.

 

[Equi]

I sold my horse the day after he went gaga in the field and injured his leg. I was honest and said if he's lame he's not leaving me but he trotted up sound and the buyer was happy to take him on. To me that's that I've done my bit. If she had then turned around a week later and said he's still injured I want a refund I wouldn't have to give it cause she decided to take him knowing he had been injured.

 

[Custard Cream]

How can a horse go from needing 'thousands of pounds worth of treatment' to 'no treatment'?

Whole story sounds odd and I don't think we're being told the whole truth.

Any normal person would be instigating x rays as the first port of call. Your vet sounds rubbish if it is true that they are diagnosing skeletal damage without any proper testing. Do they have x ray vision? Is the horse not insured?

 

[Rlm]

I have not been dishonest so please don't say that.

The vet said the injury would cost thousands, if it worked at all, to bring him back to a rideable state. If he's not being ridden then treatment isn't really critical.

The vet did suggest an X-ray to confirm what she already thinks but when we explained the circumstances she said to take the horse back rather than pay in excess of £300. Seller said this horse that was promised to make a full recovery and her vets had 'confirmed that'.she welcomed us to do a check which she said 'he would fly' when he'd settled and we did so.

 

[sandi_84]

Sorry for the confusion but are you saying after the horse was injured you were offered a vet check?
Did you then have one done and that was when your vet suggested there was more to the injury that at first it seemed?
When your vet offered the x-ray did you decline?

 

[Rlm]

The horse was vet checked checked by owner few weeks before sale. She said all was ok and we could have access to report so we didn't really need another vet check, Then the horse was injured, she got him checked and said he was fine to go but vet didn't want him to travel for a week but had no report. Again she said vet said cut was no issue. We said we would get our own check done at new yard. He had to move that week due to her stable lease expiring. We got the vet check when we moved him and you know the rest.

 

[sandi_84]

May I ask why you didn't vet check prior to paying any money for him and have you actually seen her vets report?

Sorry it's just when a seller vet check with their own vet and tells the buyer the horse checked out 100% it's usually a scam. This is why buyers are meant to have an independent vet check done themselves.

 

[Rlm]

We'd spent so much time getting to know her that we trusted her. We had him checked as we agreed when we bought him. I'll take legal advice and see where I go from there. Thank for replying. I do appreciate it.

 

[sandi_84]

I'm sorry but it very much sounds like you've been taken for a mug by this seller Sadly it is always best to assume the worst of horse sellers, if you've only met this seller through the purchase of this horse you can't assume that because she comes across as a nice person she will be honest. To be honest from what you've said so far she actually doesn't seem that nice at all

 

[MerrySherryRider]

What part of the country are these vets based ? I need to avoid them.

 

[suzysparkle]

I would have to agree. Out of interest is this seller a dealer or a private seller? It should be fairly simple to establish by googling her name. As for her own vet, I'm thinking this Horse was probably never seen by one in the first place. Were you there when the vet attended the Horse? If a Horse is for sale the sellers own vet should refuse to do any sales vetting. Certainly that has always been my experience.
This comment you made is also a cause for concern 'He had to move that week due to her stable lease expiring'. That alone would set off alarm bells for me.

 

[be positive]

I cannot think what the injury could be that would require such expensive treatment yet without treatment the horse will not actually suffer by being left, most injuries will heal given time but not many that require extensive treatment will be pain free and fine to leave yet will never heal properly.

I would be interested in the diagnosis, in the vets words, as it still sounds a very unusual situation where the diagnosis is based on the vet feeling the damage rather than using xrays, one of my horses had a completely wrong diagnosis done by a vet who felt damage where there was nothing wrong yet missed the true reason for him being lame, later confirmed by xrays which she had felt were not required. A few xrays are not overly expensive, about £40 each, you probably only require 1 or 2 to get a good clear picture which may end up showing the damage is not as bad as feared, a 5 year old must be worth a spending that on even if it just confirms the worst and makes a decision to pts easier.

 

[dunkley]

L&M has made some very good points.

Unfortunately, the age of the horse is largely irrelevant If it is unrideable, and unfixable (after proper diagnosis and xrays) then my opinion also is that it should be PTS. It would be wrong to ask any sanctuary to take it, because they are, as already said, overflowing with genuine welfare cases. If they DO have space, it should be used by one of those, not an unrideable 5yr old that will clog up that place for many, many years. Likewise, giving away as a companion may make you feel better, but again, even if you find a 'good' home with someone you trust (sadly, you trusted the vendor, and that didn't go well) circumstances have a habit of changing over a period of 20/25 years, and there is no guarantee that he will remain where you send him. There are far, far worse things that can happen to a horse than PTS - it is the only way you can be certain that he will not end up in a spiral of neglect/ridden/further injured in the future. Awful decision, but one we as responsible owners have to be prepared to make.

I am very wary of the current trend of paying by installments, for this very scenario. Pay a deposit to prevent the horse being sold, get it vetted by YOUR vet, then pay the balance. If you cannot afford the balance, then get a loan. If you are going to owe anyone, owe the bank - then at least there is no dispute as to who actually owns the horse at any time.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Good luck tomorrow.

 

[Rlm]

Thank you all.some things to think about. Will let you know.

 

[Flyermc]

Xrays shouldnt cost that much. The last set we had was something like £40 for the first and £20 each after that, we only needed 2 and i think the bill came to £83 including call out. All this stress could be over nothing. i once had a vet out to a very lame pony, she nerve blocked his feet, then fetlocks and he was still very lame. She looked at his hock and was thinking he's fractured it! Anyway it was nothing of the sort and he was back to himself afew days later.

 

[criso]

The vet did suggest an X-ray to confirm what she already thinks but when we explained the circumstances she said to take the horse back rather than pay in excess of £300.

I wonder if the vet is suggesting that if the horse could possibly still belong to the seller, the OP sends it back to get the diagnosis rather than spending the money getting the injury investigated. More pushing the responsibility back to the seller rather than saying it doesn't need x rays and treatment.

 

[Houndman]

The legal status is that horse remains the property of the seller until paid for in full.

This means that they are responsible for it and it is also their responsibility to cover on their insurance etc. The horse was on their land under their care.

Therefore the horse is not going to be received in the condition that it was seen when the sale was agreed, and the defect has occurred when in their care. You have the right to have your money returned in full (but not anything you spend on vet inspections etc).

You would therefore have grounds to sue them for the return or your money under the small claims court system. I would speak to a solicitor before jumping straight in and filling out an N1 form to make sure you fill it in correctly.

What you are saying in the original posting is not that you have paid a deposit but that you have made part payment.

 

[Dry Rot]

The legal status is that horse remains the property of the seller until paid for in full.

This means that they are responsible for it and it is also their responsibility to cover on their insurance etc. The horse was on their land under their care.

Therefore the horse is not going to be received in the condition that it was seen when the sale was agreed, and the defect has occurred when in their care. You have the right to have your money returned in full (but not anything you spend on vet inspections etc).

You would therefore have grounds to sue them for the return or your money under the small claims court system. I would speak to a solicitor before jumping straight in and filling out an N1 form to make sure you fill it in correctly.

What you are saying in the original posting is not that you have paid a deposit but that you have made part payment.

Mayson v Clouet 1924. Cheshire & Fifott, "The law of Contract", page 513.

"Where the intention was that the money should form part payment of the full amount due, then as we have seen, if the contract is rescinded for the payer's default, the payee is required at law to restore the money, subject to a cross claim for damages. If, on the other hand, the intention was that the money should be deposited as earnest or as a guarantee for the due performance of the payer's obligation, the rule at common law is that if the contract is rescinded by reason of his default the deposit is forfeited to the payer and cannot be recovered (Dies v British and International Mining and Finance Corporation ltd".

A few "if's" and "but's" follow but the advice to see a lawyer still holds good. I wouldn't be too keen to rush into court relying solely on the above.

 

[Dry Rot]

The legal status is that horse remains the property of the seller until paid for in full.

This means that they are responsible for it and it is also their responsibility to cover on their insurance etc. The horse was on their land under their care.

Therefore the horse is not going to be received in the condition that it was seen when the sale was agreed, and the defect has occurred when in their care. You have the right to have your money returned in full (but not anything you spend on vet inspections etc).

You would therefore have grounds to sue them for the return or your money under the small claims court system. I would speak to a solicitor before jumping straight in and filling out an N1 form to make sure you fill it in correctly.

What you are saying in the original posting is not that you have paid a deposit but that you have made part payment.

Mayson v Clouet 1924. Cheshire & Fifott, "The law of Contract", page 513.

"Where the intention was that the money should form part payment of the full amount due, then as we have seen, if the contract is rescinded for the payer's default, the payee is required at law to restore the money, subject to a cross claim for damages. If, on the other hand, the intention was that the money should be deposited as earnest or as a guarantee for the due performance of the payer's obligation, the rule at common law is that if the contract is rescinded by reason of his default the deposit is forfeited to the payer and cannot be recovered (Dies v British and International Mining and Finance Corporation ltd".

A few "if's" and "but's" follow but the advice to see a lawyer still holds good. I wouldn't be too keen to rush into court relying solely on the above.

 

[Rlm]

Thanks both. I do appreciate it. I'll take your advice and seek legal. Thanks again

 

[Houndman]

The bottom line is that the horse was under their ownership, not yours, when the injury happened so they are responsible. Also the horse is not yet your property as full payment has not yet been made.

As far as I understand the situation should be that as the horse is not in the condition when the sale was agreed, they are unable to fulfill their obligation under the terms of the original contract now and so the original contract is void.

This is as I understand it for material goods and the details may differ for livestock. As stated, seek legal advice.

If it were me selling the horse (being an honest person), I would have the horse written off, claim on my insurance and refund the buyer without being asked, but that's just me.

 

[Rlm]

It's a shame there are not more people like you!

 

[sandi_84]

OP did you get my PM?