Detectives needed - Horse Related

[Ifmpw]

If I read this rightly:
He's 4, so very much still in the learning phase and with his Kevin period approaching, not surprising that he bucks occasionally.

You bought him on 1 September this year? That means you've had him a bare 6 weeks, hardly time for him to settle. Moving home is stressful for horses and the new environment may need a while for them to adapt to.

I agree that you want him physically checked but if nothing is diagnosed I'd suggest giving him a break from ridden work, if possible increase his turn out time so that he develops mentally and physically. Meanwhile concentrate on getting to know each other through grooming and in hand work, then start again from basics.

Hi
yes we have had him 6 weeks, not asked alot of him, except hack around the farm, was intending to give him a year for maturing, hacking and getting to know each other. I am more than happy to deal with "Kevin's" but he is such a nice horse, I don't think it is a Kevin stage - he would definitely ride through the issues and I am sure if i smacked him or shouted at him he would stop dipping and would learn not to buck or kick out. However with him being a young horse, and the awful winter coming in, it seams the best time to either turn him away for the winter or deal with any issues such as ulcers. Also I can get his bloods run if we do think their maybe something amiss.
It was the only thing the whole time I was looking I said I had to have, which was a horse that was good to mount - old riding injuries, so would be super disappointed in the seller if they knew something about mounting issues, but as they say buyer beware. Having tried him, had a full 5 stage vetting and all the x rays and a blood taken, not sure what mor as a buyer you can do.

 

[Marigold4]

Hi thank you, I have had a full set of x rays, back, neck included - nothing on these

Phew! That's a relief. I'm sorry you are going through this. When backing my current 8 year old when he was 4, he seemed to object to every saddle (kicking out and tensing and hollowing his back), even though the fitter said they fitted him well. I resorted to a correctly fitted treeless saddle (a Torsion) and fitted pad to get him going. It was very ugly and not great for me but it did the job and he was comfortable in it and I felt secure. I now ride him in a saddle with a tree and he is fine. Just a thought.

 

[SEL]

What breed is he? My one with muscular problems is cold backed - but only for the first time mounting.

A ceramic saddle pad helped hugely as did walking her round in hand before mounting. In winter I'd lightly lunge with the saddle on if it was cold/ damp before getting on.

 

[Jellymoon]

I had one similar, had all the checks done like you and lameness work ups, nothing.
He was very sensitive to anything on him he didn’t like, saddles, girths, martingales, nose bands, me wearing different boots…
Saddlers would tear their hair out because their saddles would fit in theory, but he just didn’t like them.

Anyway, long story short, he is now very happy in tack he likes is not cold backed any more! Phew!

What did I do? Tried loads of different giths and pads, only ride in long boots, never change anything without his permission first !!!

Saddles is the worst as you can spend a fortune. What I did there was measure his basic size, and then found a saddler who has lots of second hand, and I also order my own off second hand sites, and have a trying on session with the saddler present. He decided which one he liked. The horse that is!! And it prob won’t be the one the saddler would have chosen.

I would also say, in your case, he is just a baby and I’m a big fan of nice long holidays for that age, then start again from the ground up…you may find whatever was niggling him is resolved by rest.

 

[Ifmpw]

Well has this been an interesting week.....
Back Lady
Vet
Saddler
just got the bit lady to go next weekend.
lots of checks, all sorts checked and ruled out
So he has "Vagal Collapse" - never ever heard of it until this week, but if you press his sternum he basically drops like he is going to kneel down.
The saddle did need some more flocking out - so please note, this is his 3rd saddler visit in 6 weeks and he has had adjustments twice.
Nothing wrong with his back, no pain, no reaction, moves very well, albeit a bit lazy on the lunge
Does need some strengthening in his back end, and some regular work.
Without scoping we wont know if he has had ulcers but not girthy at all and no reaction when you get on him, if the saddle has been done up correctly.
I cant use a traditional martingale, saddler wants a clip on and I have just ordered a very expensive girth that is cut out around the sternum - again cannot be done up tightly
I have also ordered a mega mounting block so i can literally step on to him, its probably a few inches to high, but again looking to take any pressure off him

Review in a months time

 

[mossycup]

Well has this been an interesting week.....
Back Lady
Vet
Saddler
just got the bit lady to go next weekend.
lots of checks, all sorts checked and ruled out
So he has "Vagal Collapse" - never ever heard of it until this week, but if you press his sternum he basically drops like he is going to kneel down.
The saddle did need some more flocking out - so please note, this is his 3rd saddler visit in 6 weeks and he has had adjustments twice.
Nothing wrong with his back, no pain, no reaction, moves very well, albeit a bit lazy on the lunge
Does need some strengthening in his back end, and some regular work.
Without scoping we wont know if he has had ulcers but not girthy at all and no reaction when you get on him, if the saddle has been done up correctly.
I cant use a traditional martingale, saddler wants a clip on and I have just ordered a very expensive girth that is cut out around the sternum - again cannot be done up tightly
I have also ordered a mega mounting block so i can literally step on to him, its probably a few inches to high, but again looking to take any pressure off him

Review in a months time

Very interesting! I did wonder whether it was vagal nerve thing when you said he crouched. I am intruigued as to why his saddle has needed adjusted three times in 6 weeks - is this all by the same saddler?

 

[Ifmpw]

Very interesting! I did wonder whether it was vagal nerve thing when you said he crouched. I am intruigued as to why his saddle has needed adjusted three times in 6 weeks - is this all by the same saddler?

Hi No

The first saddler was from where he was brought from, my saddler came out 3 weeks later and adjusted the gullet up by 2 sizes, he has come back again today and he has just taken out some flocking from the front pads, as the horse has gained more muscle and condition, he was quite pinched in on the 2nd check, and we were expecting a second call out - whilst he could have been ridden as he was due to the Vagal nerve diagnostics we have been super careful and he has also stopped me using the first girth strap, so I am on 2 and 3 now.

 

[Polos Mum]

Glad you've had lots of input from specialists

My only additional comment is 4 hours turn out for a very young horse isn't much at all.

If there is anything you can to do increase turn out (even the maximum of 8 hours you mentioned isn't loads!) then I would do that. It will help with all sorts of mental and physical health niggles in a baby.

 

[Ifmpw]

Glad you've had lots of input from specialists

My only additional comment is 4 hours turn out for a very young horse isn't much at all.

If there is anything you can to do increase turn out (even the maximum of 8 hours you mentioned isn't loads!) then I would do that. It will help with all sorts of mental and physical health niggles in a baby.

Hi
I think you miss read my post, so in the winter he is out in a group of 4 for 8 hours a day, this is in super large fields with friends to play with, and then come spring he will be out for 20 hours a day.

I ride pretty early in the morning, or late at night, so he doesn't loose turn out, he is in a large airy stable with friends at all times, and does seem pretty settled.

 

[Polos Mum]

Ah sorry -

If he is prone to niggles then somewhere with more turn out (vs. 16 hours in a stable) might be worth considering - I appreciate winter turnout is like hens teeth so hopefully he'll cope until spring

 

[Jambarissa]

It sounds like you're getting there at least in ruling things out and identifying potential issues.

My other thought is whether he was started well? You say he's a nice person, I think people can rush the nice ones, put the saddle on and they don't mind, get on and they don't mind so not bother with proper desensitisation/acceptance.

I had a similar mare and after spending a fortune on trying to find a medical issue I found this was her issue. Did a quick run through every step of starting and she was bracey about the saddle and girth but very quiet about it and I hadn't noticed.

 

[blodwyn1]

My first Welsh d mare had this once you had tightened the girth you had to walk her round before mounting and not touch the girth again or she would faint unluckily once on top of me! It was due to the girth pinching the vagus nerve. I just learned to manage it and she stayed with me for the rest of her life.

 

[Ifmpw]

It sounds like you're getting there at least in ruling things out and identifying potential issues.

My other thought is whether he was started well? You say he's a nice person, I think people can rush the nice ones, put the saddle on and they don't mind, get on and they don't mind so not bother with proper desensitisation/acceptance.

I had a similar mare and after spending a fortune on trying to find a medical issue I found this was her issue. Did a quick run through every step of starting and she was bracey about the saddle and girth but very quiet about it and I hadn't noticed.

interesting thought

 

[Ifmpw]

Ok
not had the fancy swanky girth as yet but used his normal cottage craft girth on straps 2 and 3, and no martingale as don't have a clip on this girth, we girthed up slowly, one side at a time, did take him for a lunge on both reins - he has defiantly had side reins on.
No ears back, turn to look whilst tacking up - absolutely ignored the process, but he did have his face in a net of haylidge lol
Stood stock still for me to mount, had a big fuss and a thank you, leg on to move he was pretty reluctant, so asked again, tentative step forward, then he walked on, no buck but did still seam like he sorted his hind legs out- so i am still not 100% happy with everything, will see what he is like again tomorrow.
Had a hack and when we got to good ground I asked for trot OMG ! what a movement, i really felt those shoulders move and elevate, I was so stunned I nearly fell off.

I am just shocked at how free he was, and what an impact the right fit of saddle and girth can make to a horse, I have never had one so obviously display what he is, or is not happy with.

 

[blodwyn1]

They cannot help if they have a placement of the vagus nerve that can be impinged by girth pressure. My mare was foaled in 1986 long before shaped girths etc. I think if I had an anatomic girth it would have greatly helped her. She used to literally buckle at the knees and hocks and sink down slowly. It is very easy to deal with just don't be in a hurry to leap on. It is what we used to call cold backed.

 

[Bobthecob15]

Ulcers spring to mind, it’s not unusual for a change in home environment to bring it on. Stress, change of diet, change of routine etc Or he’s had them before and they have flared up now he’s in a new home. If he’s been in pain from his saddle that can be enough to cause ulcers.

Might also be worth a second opinion with a different saddle fitter to double check the saddle.