Did anyone watch the British Breeding "backing showjumpers" webcast last night?

[MissTyc]

I dithered about posting this, but decided I was really interested in the opinions of others on this one.

Did anyone here watch last night's webcast about backing showjumpers?

NOTE: I am not a professional rider but I have backed many horses, professionally and for myself, over almost 40 years of equestrian experience. What I saw on that webcast was not what I expected from British Breeding in 2021, and it made me wonder if I'd fallen through a timeloop back to the late 80s when then this form of breaking in was the norm everywhere including a stud farm where I worked.

Is it the norm still and I just didn't realise?
Is this sort of treatment still considered necessary by higher level breeders?
I know these horses will become super show jumpers beyond what I could achieve, but do they have to be backed like this or do other studs do things differently now?

All the comments on the webcast seem so positive ... Maybe I'm the one how is out of loop but I am genuinely interesting in your thoughts as, honestly, it just made me feel a bit sad.

 

[TheMule]

I watched it and took away that I liked their horses but I didn’t find it relevant or useful to me. It's not at all how I back horses, partly because I don’t have all the added people around me necessary to make it function that way, but mostly because I have the benefit of time and so mine is much more progressive. They are doing it with a clear end goal- get them backed and sold or backed and out in the field to get the older horses in.
But, it clearly works fine for most of the horses they have, the principles of forward first were always at the fore and I think there are many much more harmful systems out there (they arent 2 1/2 year olds strapped down in tight side/ draw reins for example). It didn’t work so well for the more sensitive mare and it did make me wince when her obvious body language wasn’t listened to as I think they could have avoided a problem from developing.

 

[MissTyc]

Thanks for your thoughts - I think it was the mare that made me feel most sad as she seemed so confused and they were laughing at her for being sharp and quirky and a "professional ride" when all I saw was a lost baby who didn't understand that the kicks in the ribs meant "forwards". It made me really wonder if I was totally out of touch (or god god forbid, gone soft with age!) but I do believe in the teaching the tool before using the tool, no matter the context.

Of course you're right about the time element. Thankfully, I've never had to back a large well-bred horse in three days - I've always had the luxury of a few weeks at least, and that does change things considerably. I can't really imagine it .. and indeed, most seemed OK once the initial shock and tension was over. But then I started to wonder about conditioned tolerance and flooding and and ...

I was certainly reassured to hear that once they're forwards under saddle they are turned away again, sometimes for a very long time. Too many private owners aren't able or willing to give that time for growth.

 

[TheMule]

I can’t remember who said it, but I liked it- 'If they buck under saddle when you first start riding them then you've done something wrong'
We all know you CAN back a horse in a very short space of time- as is the 'natural horsemanship' way, but I don’t consider it necessary to rush such an important thing in a horse's life. I think all the mare needed was just another few days of sitting on quietly before being asked to do more- she looked over-loaded and responded in the only way she could to cope.

 

[RachelFerd]

I dithered about posting this, but decided I was really interested in the opinions of others on this one.

Did anyone here watch last night's webcast about backing showjumpers?

NOTE: I am not a professional rider but I have backed many horses, professionally and for myself, over almost 40 years of equestrian experience. What I saw on that webcast was not what I expected from British Breeding in 2021, and it made me wonder if I'd fallen through a timeloop back to the late 80s when then this form of breaking in was the norm everywhere including a stud farm where I worked.

Is it the norm still and I just didn't realise?
Is this sort of treatment still considered necessary by higher level breeders?
I know these horses will become super show jumpers beyond what I could achieve, but do they have to be backed like this or do other studs do things differently now?

All the comments on the webcast seem so positive ... Maybe I'm the one how is out of loop but I am genuinely interesting in your thoughts as, honestly, it just made me feel a bit sad.

I also watched it. I've broken in lots of horses when working in racing, and honestly think that we had the luxury of doing a more thorough job of breaking in our horses, with more time, and more exposure to different situations, when working in racing. Ours were lunged, double lunged, long reined all over the farm, backed in stables, ridden away in the arena, hacked out on the roads and the bridleways, taught to pop a pole, and go up the gallops in the space of around 8 weeks rather than 3.

It wasn't so much that I was horrified by much of what I saw - but I saw horses being broken to do a very specific job, rather than being broken to be all-round good citizens.

I've just put together a video which i'm uploading on YouTube now of my 3yo being broken in (by a friend of mine) last year. I think I say in the voiceover - "this is a very boring video about breaking a horse in. Because when you break a horse in properly, nothing very exciting happens!"

I asked her to take as long as it took to break him in rather than to hurry through. He went from unhandled to ridden away in 6 weeks, with no drama. But that is twice as long as the horses we watched last night. That's fine for me as an amateur owner with no business interest, but time is money isn't it....

 

[humblepie]

I didn't see it but I like your phrase about breaking them to be good all round citizens. I've stayed in Middleham on occasions for work and seeing the young racehorses being long reined around the town was amazing, such good education for them whatever their future career or careers.

 

[MissTyc]

That sounds fantastic! I love long-reining and really enjoy it as a way to get them out and about before they're ridden. I find it a good way to teach them to cope with stressors and often give the handler confidence to handle temper tantrums!

In the webcast someone asked about long-reining, but the stud said they didn't do it because it makes them "too fit and too brave and then they bury you" ... Again, that doesn't align with my experience, but I do recognise that my horses don't have arm-long SJ pedigrees and don't end up jumping all around the world and getting sold for megabucks!

 

[RachelFerd]

I didn't see it but I like your phrase about breaking them to be good all round citizens. I've stayed in Middleham on occasions for work and seeing the young racehorses being long reined around the town was amazing, such good education for them whatever their future career or careers.

So my friend who broke my 3yo (now rising 4yo) in last year happens to work in racing in Middleham - but also breaks in the odd sport horse too. I've got many criticisms about racing, but most yards I worked in did a really decent job with the babies. I think she did an absolutely brilliant job with a youngster who was essentially unhandled, and pretty sharp to begin with.

Here's the video of my lad learning to become a 'good all-round citizen' - he's not jumping a course of fences like last night's showjumpers - but he's definitely seen more of the world. But then I want a future eventer suitable for an amateur, not a horse that is going to jump around 150s....

 

[RachelFerd]

In the webcast someone asked about long-reining, but the stud said they didn't do it because it makes them "too fit and too brave and then they bury you" ... Again, that doesn't align with my experience, but I do recognise that my horses don't have arm-long SJ pedigrees and don't end up jumping all around the world and getting sold for megabucks!

I don't think long-reining makes them fit and likely to bury you. I think lunging them into the ground daily can get them too fit.... but I think over time i've understood that lunging shouldn't be about winging them around getting their back's down - they've got to come out and learn to calmly work in walk and trot, not hoon around giving themselves injuries and learning that work=fast drama.

 

[MissTyc]

Thanks for the video - will watch it later!

I totally agree re the hooning/"getting it out of them" etc ... for me, these are all field behaviours and I don't encourage any of it during handling.

 

[TheMule]

So my friend who broke my 3yo (now rising 4yo) in last year happens to work in racing in Middleham - but also breaks in the odd sport horse too. I've got many criticisms about racing, but most yards I worked in did a really decent job with the babies. I think she did an absolutely brilliant job with a youngster who was essentially unhandled, and pretty sharp to begin with.

Here's the video of my lad learning to become a 'good all-round citizen' - he's not jumping a course of fences like last night's showjumpers - but he's definitely seen more of the world. But then I want a future eventer suitable for an amateur, not a horse that is going to jump around 150s....

Really nice video of a lovely young horse being done really sympathetically- building life skills properly

 

[tristar]

That sounds fantastic! I love long-reining and really enjoy it as a way to get them out and about before they're ridden. I find it a good way to teach them to cope with stressors and often give the handler confidence to handle temper tantrums!

In the webcast someone asked about long-reining, but the stud said they didn't do it because it makes them "too fit and too brave and then they bury you" ... Again, that doesn't align with my experience, but I do recognise that my horses don't have arm-long SJ pedigrees and don't end up jumping all around the world and getting sold for megabucks!

i would have serious reservations about the true horsemanship of anyone who says that on the webcast

 

[DabDab]

I didn't see the video, but it is disappointing if that is the way they are broadcasting backing.

I've always found that horse backing and riding away seems to have gone in trends the way that agriculture did (in the UK anyway). Old fashioned, traditional backing was a comparatively slow process, with bitting and long reining and leaning over and then starting off by spending the first 4 weeks on board just walking on a long rein. And then through the 70s, 80s, 90s it seemed to become more commercialised with people condensing the process down as much as possible. And since then there seems to be an increasingly diverse range of methods and processes used.

Fwiw I used to back showjumpers (approx 15 years ago), using slow/progressive methods and never had one that was difficult in any way. If they are going to be a bit spicy it's generally 4-10 weeks post backing that you start to see it ime.

 

[tristar]

Thanks for your thoughts - I think it was the mare that made me feel most sad as she seemed so confused and they were laughing at her for being sharp and quirky and a "professional ride" when all I saw was a lost baby who didn't understand that the kicks in the ribs meant "forwards". It made me really wonder if I was totally out of touch (or god god forbid, gone soft with age!) but I do believe in the teaching the tool before using the tool, no matter the context.

Of course you're right about the time element. Thankfully, I've never had to back a large well-bred horse in three days - I've always had the luxury of a few weeks at least, and that does change things considerably. I can't really imagine it .. and indeed, most seemed OK once the initial shock and tension was over. But then I started to wonder about conditioned tolerance and flooding and and ...

I was certainly reassured to hear that once they're forwards under saddle they are turned away again, sometimes for a very long time. Too many private owners aren't able or willing to give that time for growth.

that poor bloody mare

 

[brighteyes]

So my friend who broke my 3yo (now rising 4yo) in last year happens to work in racing in Middleham - but also breaks in the odd sport horse too. I've got many criticisms about racing, but most yards I worked in did a really decent job with the babies. I think she did an absolutely brilliant job with a youngster who was essentially unhandled, and pretty sharp to begin with.

Here's the video of my lad learning to become a 'good all-round citizen' - he's not jumping a course of fences like last night's showjumpers - but he's definitely seen more of the world. But then I want a future eventer suitable for an amateur, not a horse that is going to jump around 150s....

Super, super, super - lucky horse! Good luck and I hope to follow his progress!

 

[TheMule]

i would have serious reservations about the true horsemanship of anyone who says that on the webcast

It wasn’t said quite like that, they answered quite generally about too much work from the ground- I didn’t disagree with their sentiment

 

[MissTyc]

It wasn’t said quite like that, they answered quite generally about too much work from the ground- I didn’t disagree with their sentiment

Actually those were the words that were used. My friend and I repeated them as we were chatting in msg at the time. no groundwork/long-reining because it makes them "too fit/too brave/they bury you" ... Totally agree with not overworking young horses and getting them "fit", but teaching a tool in advance has value.

 

[ITPersonnage]

Fab video RF, I'm in love he does happen to look like my girl who I lost a year ago... but love the way he's going by the end, such a good boy !!

 

[TheMule]

Actually those were the words that were used. My friend and I repeated them as we were chatting in msg at the time. no groundwork/long-reining because it makes them "too fit/too brave/they bury you" ... Totally agree with not overworking young horses and getting them "fit", but teaching a tool in advance has value.

Yes agreed, she said she doesn’t long rein on the whole unless she has a problem one. 'I don’t like to get them too fit and I think long-reining and lunging them for too long can get them too fit'

 

[KEK]

So my friend who broke my 3yo (now rising 4yo) in last year happens to work in racing in Middleham - but also breaks in the odd sport horse too. I've got many criticisms about racing, but most yards I worked in did a really decent job with the babies. I think she did an absolutely brilliant job with a youngster who was essentially unhandled, and pretty sharp to begin with.

Here's the video of my lad learning to become a 'good all-round citizen' - he's not jumping a course of fences like last night's showjumpers - but he's definitely seen more of the world. But then I want a future eventer suitable for an amateur, not a horse that is going to jump around 150s....

Very much enjoyed your vid! Any updates?

 

[SmallSteps]

Yes agreed, she said she doesn’t long rein on the whole unless she has a problem one. 'I don’t like to get them too fit and I think long-reining and lunging them for too long can get them too fit'

She actually just said she doesn't lunge for too long, which honestly is what you're all agreeing with (and I'd also agree with).

Similarly the process they showed from getting on in the stable was three weeks (not 3 days) PLUS the initial groundwork which they didn't show "because that's very standard" so it didn't strike me as any faster than the 6 week examples you're all agreeing with here. The sharp horse she showed she said she'll spend an extra month with, because they felt that a slower approach was right for this individual horse. The others get turned away quickly yes, but not because they need the stables, they feel that their experience tells them it works best for those ones to work in short bursts.

Thing is we've got a lot of people on here that didn't watch the webinar and wouldn't know that all these descriptions aren't true, and that's not really OK. I'm miles away up North but even I know that this stud has a strong reputation for being very open, so it seems rather ironic to pick them to libel. If you did watch it and felt you knew better than them, that's great, we're all just trying to do our best. We can represent our own opinions without having to misrepresent theirs. They never said they get everything right, just that they've broken ten horses a year for 50 years, and here's what their current process is, if you're interested.

Personally I'm really grateful they did it because until then I'd never put two and two together about some horses just not liking crosspoles! I just thought if there's going to be a cheeky buck it'll be after the first or second jump of the week but with hindsight I always think that once we're past the cross pole we're safe! lol

 

[TheMule]

She actually just said she doesn't lunge for too long, which honestly is what you're all agreeing with (and I'd also agree with).

Similarly the process they showed from getting on in the stable was three weeks (not 3 days) PLUS the initial groundwork which they didn't show "because that's very standard" so it didn't strike me as any faster than the 6 week examples you're all agreeing with here. The sharp horse she showed she said she'll spend an extra month with, because they felt that a slower approach was right for this individual horse. The others get turned away quickly yes, but not because they need the stables, they feel that their experience tells them it works best for those ones to work in short bursts.

Thing is we've got a lot of people on here that didn't watch the webinar and wouldn't know that all these descriptions aren't true, and that's not really OK. I'm miles away up North but even I know that this stud has a strong reputation for being very open, so it seems rather ironic to pick them to libel. If you did watch it and felt you knew better than them, that's great, we're all just trying to do our best. We can represent our own opinions without having to misrepresent theirs. They never said they get everything right, just that they've broken ten horses a year for 50 years, and here's what their current process is, if you're interested.

Personally I'm really grateful they did it because until then I'd never put two and two together about some horses just not liking crosspoles! I just thought if there's going to be a cheeky buck it'll be after the first or second jump of the week but with hindsight I always think that once we're past the cross pole we're safe! lol

I'm not sure why you've quoted me when I've typed out the exact phrase they used (I went back to re-watch and check) and I have actually been pretty supportive of the stud. In fact, I have been a client of theirs in the past and bred a foal by the same stallion as the sharp mare.

 

[DabDab]

Libel?

There's no libel on this thread. Just some people who saw the webinar expressing (generally quite balanced) views on the methods that they observed on the vid, and people who didn't see it just talking about backing in general.

 

[AWinter]

You can watch the full webinar here

Webinar

 

[McGrools]

I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think its great that the stud is being so open and taking the time to create viewing material for us to watch
X

 

[SmallSteps]

Apologies Mule - the quote reply was accidental, had intended the reply to be general! Winter has linked Webinar above for those that did want to see it ^^^

 

[RachelFerd]

Very much enjoyed your vid! Any updates?

Thanks for lovely comments about my young horse. Very happy with him, and particularly happy with the job that was done thoroughly and calmly! Update is that I got him in from the field last week (slightly earlier than planned) because he'd picked up a bit of mud fever and wanted to get that sorted out. Did a bit of groundwork and got back on board within a couple of days... hacked out alone today... very relaxed and unconcerned about getting back into the swing of things!

On the webinar itself - I don't think there's any libel on this thread. I think views have been pretty balanced. My take is very much that they are broken to do a specific job, but not do a generalist job. And that has a time advantage, but wouldn't be my personal choice. I liked quite a few of the horses - the lovely grey and the chestnut with the white legs both seemed super genuine to me. I also think there was plenty of common sense spoken and it was good to see an open and honest account of processes taken. It wouldn't make me hesitate to buy a horse from the stud (if I was ever horse shopping again); but I would do so knowing that i'd probably need to go back and do some long-reining and hacking-type work to give the horse the background knowledge I'd want them to have.

An ex partner of mine used to break problem horses and would always get it done in a week... and that was a key reason for me sending my own horse to someone who wasn't going to attempt that

 

[SmallSteps]

The points about how people are providing a balanced discussion are really important, this is exactly what prompted me to stick my neck out here. The discussion here is really appropriate but my point was that what is being discussed is false. There are several points made here that were completely different to my understanding - the stud didn’t back horses in 3 days, there wasn’t a horse that was just kicked and expected to know that meant forward (even once lunge rein was removed in the lunge pen and then in the school the handler on the ground continued to provide an aid with the lunge whip) etc. etc. People were commenting on whether a few of these different things that I didn’t think happened were appropriate, so it seemed important to provide that balance. Doesn’t mean the discussion wasn’t good, just that I didn’t feel people got a fair impression from the starting assertions. If you guys feel that actually these things were true then that’s fair enough. It sounds like I need to go watch it again!

 

[Asha]

The points about how people are providing a balanced discussion are really important, this is exactly what prompted me to stick my neck out here. The discussion here is really appropriate but my point was that what is being discussed is false. There are several points made here that were completely different to my understanding - the stud didn’t back horses in 3 days, there wasn’t a horse that was just kicked and expected to know that meant forward (even once lunge rein was removed in the lunge pen and then in the school the handler on the ground continued to provide an aid with the lunge whip) etc. etc. People were commenting on whether a few of these different things that I didn’t think happened were appropriate, so it seemed important to provide that balance. Doesn’t mean the discussion wasn’t good, just that I didn’t feel people got a fair impression from the starting assertions. If you guys feel that actually these things were true then that’s fair enough. It sounds like I need to go watch it again!

i watched it to. I got the same impression as this ^^

The mare in question had been lunged and was taught all the voice commands. The kick was to back those commands up when she froze. They did move onto using a stick, which would just tap them on the shoulder when needed. Shirley had actually said they had hours and hours of videos but to make it more enjoyable they had condensed it, and ultimately got rid of a load of the boring / necessary repetitive work.

I thoroughly enjoyed it, and was impressed with the young girl who rode the tricky mare. By the end of it she was going so much better.I was also impressed with the body armour used. I particularly loved the young horses at the end when they jumped the water tray. They just took it in their stride. If there had been gaps in their education theres no way on earth they would have jumped those fences at that time of night with all those shadiws etc. the horses had clearly learnt to trust the riders.

 

[MissTyc]

I was the first to admit I haven't worked with horses of this caliber and none of mine would go on to ever be horses of this caliber, so I apologise if some of my comments were taken the wrong way.

I was interested in the whole thing, the whole approach; I found some of the responses to questions a little odd; and I did find some of the interactions with the horses unkind (from my perspective; also recognising these horses will never be pets etc etc) . I merely wondered if others with horses of a similar caliber did things differently, and I've heard lots of interesting perspectives and stories now.

Like many, I've seen some big big changes in horse training over the last 10 years. With the emotional welfare and associated expressions being more researched this has influenced my perspectives. But I absolutely said in most of my posts that there were things I admired within their backing and things I didn't like so much.

Editing to add (sorry, hope that's OK!)

This comment was one of mine: "there wasn’t a horse that was just kicked and expected to know that meant forward "

The horse didn't understand. She was planted and quite overwhelmed. And yes there was help on the ground, but it didn't in that moment solve the issue.

But I do actually totally agree that they moved on to a different approach afterwards and I'm sure the horse will be a lovely horse in the end. I have o doubt of that for any of them, having seem them in action. I just feel there was a different route in that moment. As I said futher above, it was mostly that mare that made me sad. The other horses seemed more suited to the approach and generally got on with it.

The rider was superb - no doubt about that. And brave.