Difference between English and American English riding

[lilyoftheincas]

While watching Americans ride English on Youtube, and then watching English people ride English on Youtube, I've noticed there are quite a few differences- the way the horse rides over the jumps (which are generally lower and wider than ones here in the UK?), the way the horse carries itself and the way the rider sits. It seems like they have a much more 'sedate' seat when it comes to riding, however seem perhaps less secure because they seem to stand in the stirrups. This video is a good example (excluding the fall, just thought the footage was nice and clear and shows what I'm on about):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8k3EgWrCS8&feature=g-vrec

Any Americans out there who ride English kind enough to explain?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

US Hunter classes are nothing like our Working Hunter classes.

I believe that saddleseat classes are counted as 'English' in the US.

 

[DGeventing]

In my experience a lot of us get into jumping via equitation and hunter classes. Essentially in hunter classes riders are scored not just for getting a clear round, but for doing it stylishly.

Childrens classes can be lower (I guess what's the point in pushing for higher and higher courses when the principles can be shown at lower heights?) but finals and medals are a minimum of 3'6" and up to 5 foot wide, so not that small!

A good competitor will not have a loose seat, they should be in 2 point most of the time, both over jumps (clearly ) but it's encouraged between jumps to keep weight off the horses back. The saddles used reflect this, and help to 'push' riders into this position. From what I've seen most UK riders will go into 'normal' seat between fences.

As for sedate, time is not taken into account in hunter classes, so it's far better to do a stylish clear in a balanced and secure canter, than race around.

 

[DGeventing]

US Hunter classes are nothing like our Working Hunter classes.

I believe that saddleseat classes are counted as 'English' in the US.

Saddle seat is English riding, but nothing like what the OP is discussing. SS is flat and (to me) looks just plain weird! Riders sit back, with higher hands (you lose points for leaning forwards, I believe) and look very very still. It mostly involved gaited horses, and those with a high head carriage. Hunter classes on the other hand are mostly WB and TB types, and mostly jump classes.

 

[Enfys]

You need to talk to Tarrsteps for one, she is Canadian and knows her stuff backwards, forwards, inside out and all the back home again

My daughter gave up competing when we moved to Canada because essentially (although she hunted, jumped, and represented her PC at Dressage in the UK) English here is completely different and unless she did pure jumping she would have to ride American English (fair enough, when in Rome and all that) I gave up English because I prefer western.

I have a friend who trains for the Trillium circuit so see a lot of Hunter Jumpers in the ring and at home but can only talk about what I see locally to me. I have zero interest in competing here out of the rodeo circuit. Horses are encouraged to go long and low in self carriage for a start, I used to look at them and think they would be warming up or cooling down in the UK.
A well trained horse is very obedient, almost like an automaton actually, rhythm is all, showing a bit of spirit in the ring (or out of it actually) is a huge No-No, I happen to think that a lot of show horses look defeated and downright depressed but that, again, is merely my observation.
Canter is done 'two point' standing in the stirrups basically. I can never get over the trot, the horse has his head level with the withers and you are posting with absolutely nothing in front of you, how I would absolutely hate to ride that! (So I don't )
It doesn't seem so awkward when a western trained horse does it somehow.

Riding gear and tack differ a lot too, coloured breeches are acceptable. Half chaps!!!!!!!!!!!!! Half pads (white wool) are de-rigeur, martingales are the norm, and braids tied with coloured wool.

English Pleasure Class:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3BJAAe9p8w&feature=related

 

[Jesstickle]

I assumed it was the same everywhere. I guess because people in Aus and NZ and all over Europe are basically the same.

Those who event in the states/canada, how do you make the jump from the slightly odd style class because I guess the FEI is the FEI and they want to see horses that look like English/european whatever you want to call it horses I guess?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Yes - jumping in a standing martingale makes me go as it was drummed into me when young that this should never be done.

 

[DGeventing]

I assumed it was the same everywhere. I guess because people in Aus and NZ and all over Europe are basically the same.

Those who event in the states/canada, how do you make the jump from the slightly odd style class because I guess the FEI is the FEI and they want to see horses that look like English/european whatever you want to call it horses I guess?

We still have some 'normal' sj and eventing at lower levels, but most kids come through the hunter system (in my area anyway). To be honest it doesn't matter that much. My event pony started off in hunters with me, and it taught him to be very very careful over fences, so if anything it's been beneficial.

The only issue would be dressage, since the long and low position is encouraged (doesn't matter, we'd be rubbish anyway!) but since most people going into eventing etc aren't riding the same horses or ponies as the did hunt classes on, it's mostly avoided.

As an aside, well schooled (yes, well schooled to go in that 'strange' manner ) hunt seat & equitation ponies sell for a bomb From looking at H&H etc a lot more than a good UK show pony.

 

[Jesstickle]

Thanks DGeventing. It was definitely the dressage I wondered about. Jumping is jumping at the end of the day isn't it? Horse can jump or horse can't jump. Simple stuff

 

[Celestica]

Something about their seat always annoyed me, it's as if they stick their butt out behind them where as we sit on our seat bones. Also I don't understand how they balance in their jumping position! They literally lie over the neck! The horses seem to stretch over the jump rather that jump up and over like the uk and ROI horses do.

 

[Enfys]

As an aside, well schooled (yes, well schooled to go in that 'strange' manner ) hunt seat & equitation ponies sell for a bomb From looking at H&H etc a lot more than a good UK show pony.

Ah yes, so they do Producing these horses can be a very profitable business I imagine.
I had one in my barn (sadly not mine) that went to The States for $20,000 (US) and currently have another in that cost his owners in excess of $15,000, a very expensive pet.

 

[shanfd_]

While watching Americans ride English on Youtube, and then watching English people ride English on Youtube, I've noticed there are quite a few differences- the way the horse rides over the jumps (which are generally lower and wider than ones here in the UK?), the way the horse carries itself and the way the rider sits. It seems like they have a much more 'sedate' seat when it comes to riding, however seem perhaps less secure because they seem to stand in the stirrups. This video is a good example (excluding the fall, just thought the footage was nice and clear and shows what I'm on about):

Any Americans out there who ride English kind enough to explain?

Don't get me started on watching Americans ride english. It bothers my soul watching them ride. Watching the horses lollop along with no impulsion or effort at all. Throw themselves over piddly jumps because the rider has never been taught how to actually set a horse up to a jump. Nearly every single video I have ever seen of americans riding english has ended in a fall as soon as the horse so much as flinches because riders are taught to lean forward in the saddle which throws their balance off.

They need to learn to sit up tall, plant their butts in the saddle and actually work their horse into a contact. That way their horse is listening and engaged, the rider is secure and you are actually ACHIEVING something in your session. It just annoys me even hearing them say equine words... like canter.

Sorry for the rant!

 

[Orangehorse]

Saddle Seat is completely different. I have ridden Saddle Seat but I am not an expert by any means, so stand to be corrected by anyone with greater knowledge.

It is for "upheaded" horses, so the complete opposite of long and low, western style. Like the Saddlebred, Morgans, Walking Horse and even Arab horses. The saddle has a cut back head and is like an old showing saddle, to allow the horse's neck to come up, and fits closely to the horse.

The overall look is to have a horse that is lively and very forward going, but to be controlled by the very lightest of aids which should be invisible to the onlooker. So the bit is a long shank double with very thin reins, on a very light rein, the lower leg is held away from the horse's sides and any leg aids are given by the outside leg so the inside leg doesn't move. The clothes are "a gentleman's riding outfit" from 18th/19th century, certainly not boots and breeches would be a servant's outfit. The horse should be schooled to be a delight to ride over long distances and a long time in the saddle, while making the rider look good.

So the horse is controlled by the light hand and using the body, core muscles, and thigh. You can aid to canter using the outside lower leg if necessary. When watching a lesson the instructor was saying, feel the connection to the ground through your seat bones if you have a lively horse that wants to go faster than you want!

 

[Mule]

You need to talk to Tarrsteps for one, she is Canadian and knows her stuff backwards, forwards, inside out and all the back home again

My daughter gave up competing when we moved to Canada because essentially (although she hunted, jumped, and represented her PC at Dressage in the UK) English here is completely different and unless she did pure jumping she would have to ride American English (fair enough, when in Rome and all that) I gave up English because I prefer western.

I have a friend who trains for the Trillium circuit so see a lot of Hunter Jumpers in the ring and at home but can only talk about what I see locally to me. I have zero interest in competing here out of the rodeo circuit. Horses are encouraged to go long and low in self carriage for a start, I used to look at them and think they would be warming up or cooling down in the UK.
A well trained horse is very obedient, almost like an automaton actually, rhythm is all, showing a bit of spirit in the ring (or out of it actually) is a huge No-No, I happen to think that a lot of show horses look defeated and downright depressed but that, again, is merely my observation.
Canter is done 'two point' standing in the stirrups basically. I can never get over the trot, the horse has his head level with the withers and you are posting with absolutely nothing in front of you, how I would absolutely hate to ride that! (So I don't )
It doesn't seem so awkward when a western trained horse does it somehow.

Riding gear and tack differ a lot too, coloured breeches are acceptable. Half chaps!!!!!!!!!!!!! Half pads (white wool) are de-rigeur, martingales are the norm, and braids tied with coloured wool.

English Pleasure Class:

I wonder do the horses backs get really strong from stretching over their toplines so much?

 

[ihatework]

Zombie thread!!
But yes American hunters and pleasure really grates on me too.

 

[Cortez]

I wonder do the horses backs get really strong from stretching over their toplines so much?

No.

 

[splashgirl45]

You need to talk to Tarrsteps for one, she is Canadian and knows her stuff backwards, forwards, inside out and all the back home again

My daughter gave up competing when we moved to Canada because essentially (although she hunted, jumped, and represented her PC at Dressage in the UK) English here is completely different and unless she did pure jumping she would have to ride American English (fair enough, when in Rome and all that) I gave up English because I prefer western.

I have a friend who trains for the Trillium circuit so see a lot of Hunter Jumpers in the ring and at home but can only talk about what I see locally to me. I have zero interest in competing here out of the rodeo circuit. Horses are encouraged to go long and low in self carriage for a start, I used to look at them and think they would be warming up or cooling down in the UK.
A well trained horse is very obedient, almost like an automaton actually, rhythm is all, showing a bit of spirit in the ring (or out of it actually) is a huge No-No, I happen to think that a lot of show horses look defeated and downright depressed but that, again, is merely my observation.
Canter is done 'two point' standing in the stirrups basically. I can never get over the trot, the horse has his head level with the withers and you are posting with absolutely nothing in front of you, how I would absolutely hate to ride that! (So I don't )
It doesn't seem so awkward when a western trained horse does it somehow.

Riding gear and tack differ a lot too, coloured breeches are acceptable. Half chaps!!!!!!!!!!!!! Half pads (white wool) are de-rigeur, martingales are the norm, and braids tied with coloured wool.

English Pleasure Class:

i know this is old but the video made me depressed, the horse looked really depressed as well, and as for so called canter

 

[Caol Ila]

It is a zombie!

But let's not mince words or history -- saddleseat comes from the Antebellum South, where the master needed a comfortable horse to ride over his plantations, minding his slaves, and the horse having a certain look about it, the high head carriage, etc., was the 19th C equivalent of people driving Lamborghinis. It conveys the wealth, power, status of the master class. I can't watch it without thinking about that. And it's always overweight white guys riding whenever you see those gaited horse classes. They look like they should be slave owners. Yuck.

Hunters is bizarre. Americans who do other disciplines find hunters bizarre. They got their own problems -- there was a big NY Times investigative feature a few years ago exposing the flagrant use of drugs in the hunter ring to make horses more sedate. While jumping. Which seems like a brilliant idea. Hunters done well should require a balanced, steady horse going over fences. It's just gone too far towards the 'steady' and for really strange ascetics. I see a lot of jumping in the UK where people are encouraged by instructors to chase their horses over fences while the horse is totally unbalanced and motorcycling wildly through the corners. And the answer when the horse starts acting uncomfortanle and wanting to back off the fence? Faster! More leg! Um, how about you teach horse and rider to be upwards and engaged in canter and bend, rather than scurrying on the forehand. It's true that US showjumping has tons of that as well, but the US doesn't have a monopoly on pants riding.

But here's the good bits, at least in my view. I found really great training, for dressage and for general horsemanship, to be way more accessible there. Especially in the west, where I'm from, some of the mentality from the days where you *needed* your horse to be a safe, reliable partner while working cattle in the middle of nowhere has seeped into the general riding culture, and ground manners and stuff like that are more of a thing.

 

[HazuraJane]

Something about their seat always annoyed me, it's as if they stick their butt out behind them where as we sit on our seat bones. Also I don't understand how they balance in their jumping position! They literally lie over the neck! The horses seem to stretch over the jump rather that jump up and over like the uk and ROI horses do.

Who is this 'they' of which you speak?

 

[Buster2020]

I hate there jumping position it looks so overdramatic . There hunter shows are weird but also very expensive.

 

[Orangehorse]

But let's not mince words or history -- saddleseat comes from the Antebellum South, where the master needed a comfortable horse to ride over his plantations, minding his slaves, and the horse having a certain look about it, the high head carriage, etc., was the 19th C equivalent of people driving Lamborghinis. It conveys the wealth, power, status of the master class. I can't watch it without thinking about that. And it's always overweight white guys riding whenever you see those gaited horse classes. They look like they should be slave owners. Yuck.

Actually, this did pass through my mind! But I believe it is how riders on Rotten Row in England used to ride too and it was when hunting took over as the pastime of choice for the English that it died out here. The origin of "gaited" meant fully trained and able to do Spanish Walk and Trot, well that is what I was told by an American instructor. And the ambler of Europe was exported to the Americas but died out in Europe as carriages took over and trotting looked smarter and trotting was necessary for the new fashion for dressage.

 

[shortstuff99]

I follow the USEF on facebook and they often put winning rounds on from hunter jumper shows and all the comments are saying it's amazing. I watch the videos like errr sure! I really don't get hunter jumper ?

 

[Cortez]

The American Hunter Jumper scene is quite unlike anything we have over here (not to mention Saddle Seat and TWH classes, which are another universe entirely. And then there is Western Pleasure; I could go on......).

 

[Orangehorse]

I think the point of Hunter Jumper is to have the horse jumping out of its stride, so the rider sits and looks as though they are doing nothing, but of course they are!

Just because it is different, it doesn't mean that it is wrong.

 

[Pippity]

I think it would be interesting to see something similar to hunter jumper over here, but without the weird extremes of the American classes. Just something where a horse and rider are judged for their style and schooling over fences, rather than just height. Almost like dressage with jumps.

 

[shortstuff99]

I think it would be interesting to see something similar to hunter jumper over here, but without the weird extremes of the American classes. Just something where a horse and rider are judged for their style and schooling over fences, rather than just height. Almost like dressage with jumps.

We do it is called Style Jumping and is run by the riding club. You are judged before, during and after your SJ round like a dressage test.

 

[lozloz1]

I think it would be interesting to see something similar to hunter jumper over here, but without the weird extremes of the American classes. Just something where a horse and rider are judged for their style and schooling over fences, rather than just height. Almost like dressage with jumps.

I think there are classes called jumping and style that fit that description?

EDIT: While I was looking it up someone else posted it too

 

[BBP]

I’ve ridden a lot of US hunters and the thing they all had in common was that they were all incredibly pleasant to ride. They all carried me along and in to a fence, no pushing, kicking or pulling. They all did flying changes without a bother. Their job is to make an average rider look brilliant. It’s an odd scene to be part of. My boss/pro trainer would have me ride them before he would get on to compete, so they didn’t put a foot out of line to make him look stupid. I would say that a lot of them are probably bored out of their minds though, as that’s all they ever do. 3 jumping classes and two flat, all long sides and diagonal lines. When I was a kid I rode a super pony who was totally ring sour. At one show my sister was allowed to take him in a jumper class or two and he just loved it! When I came to take him in a hunter flat class, which is meant to be pretty sedate, he was lapping all the others as he had perked up so much! It’s not my cup of tea but I learned some decent riding skills doing it, and the horses really were lovely.

 

[ecb89]

Ahh glad this has been bumped. I follow a few US instagram accounts and the Hunter jumpers have puzzled me. The riders fold completely forwards over the smallest of jumps and then stay perched between the jumps. Seems the complete opposite to here where we are told to stay off the horses neck and to sit back in balance between the jumps.

 

[Mule]

No.

Is that because they are on their forehands?