Mule
Well-Known Member
They probably aren't riding dirty stoppers ?
Difference between English and American English riding
- Thread starter lilyoftheincas
- Start date
Mule
Well-Known Member
They do have long reins and a long frame so the horses must be trustworthy and quiet. Some of the showjumping half halts are a big sock in the gob
ecb89
Well-Known Member
True ? I do watch those videos thinking if that horse stops they are going to go flying
Mule
Well-Known Member
I did a couple of those competition i enjoyed them too. I don't think they are very popular though.
Mule
Well-Known Member
Hehe i know a couple of horses who would gleefully take advantage ?
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Yes, and because there is no (or little) actual engagement, so all the push is going into the ground and not up through the forehand.
The Problematic Hunter
New User
What many of you consider "overfolding" or "laying up the neck" couldn't be further from the truth. As a Hunter/Eq rider this irks me since Europeans have the loudest and often rudest things to say about hunters and most of yall would be excused out of the hunter ring, especially the eq ring for unsafe riding or horses. Hunters don't lay up the neck, we ride with a light but engaged seat and core. the whole point of hunters is to present quality rounds and horses that would be needed for the hunt field ie. A balanced horse that can canter along calmly little interference, soft light and honest to fences, jumps a consistent distance to every fence, horses should jump in a fluid arc, they also have to have changes. None of these are possible if you lean up the neck. Its incredibly hard for a horse to jump well if your up their neck, so as you can imagine hunters don't do this. We do however ride with a closed hip angle paired with a crest release over fences this position allows the horse to reach their peak jump over the fence. I've also seen many people claim that the horses go around on the forehand and disengaged once not true. Just because they have a lower headset doesn't mean their on the forehand or disengaged we ride them on the bit just as every other equestrian but they break at the withers not the poll. As mentioned above the horse needs a "textbook knees to nose" jump this is basically impossible to achieve if your horse goes around flat or downhill. Circling back to the rider some common retorts i see people saying "they could never survive a hunt field" or "they could never sit a stop" or "they could never ride a proper fence" or my personal favorite "that position it just not it" Ironic since international derbies can have fences over 4'6, and I don't know if you have ever watched a MCLAY work off riders are regularly asked to drop their stirrups and jump courses. Hunters ride well and effective. Don't believe me look as the US showjumping team, hint they all grew up doing the junior hunters or Big eq
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeVcvX5s/https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeVcTxsh/https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeVc3CHK/TPO
Well-Known Member
Excellent reply ?
Another that fed up of the ignorant views on American riders, be it English or western, but nowhere near knowledgable to provide a detailed reply (coupled with CBA) & no first hand experience of Hunt seat or equitation.
Another that fed up of the ignorant views on American riders, be it English or western, but nowhere near knowledgable to provide a detailed reply (coupled with CBA) & no first hand experience of Hunt seat or equitation.
The Problematic Hunter
New User
They actually aren't on the forehand at all. As someone who rides hunters i can assure you that a flat downhill horse won't get pined in a class. Its pretty impossible to get that perfect of a jump if your horse is disengaged
These a some photos of a hunter I used to ride you can clearly see he's not lacking impulsion
Its pretty plain as dawn to see that none of the horses are laking engagement or impulsion
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Yes. And for Prob Hunter, I used to sell hj's in the States (I used to have a stud farm and breed sportshorses) and they are nowhere near as engaged as a dressage horse or showjumper. HJ's jump with a flat back over low jumps, eq horses even more so, so the rider can pose and look pretty.
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The Problematic Hunter
New User
Basically every word of that was wrong which needs me to believe you've never ridden a hunter.
Below I've linked some videos so you can better understand hunters
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeVwAVAq/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeVwh4Pp/
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeVwTRYo/
As you can see a rider in this "unsecure" position was able sit quite a few misshaps
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeVKkwBM/
BaronSamedi
...
What you say is utter rubbish. Not one of those 'hunter riders' as you call them would last 10 seconds on my old boy who was a top junior showjumper who was an Irish team pony or my niece's 128cm pony and definitely not my tank of a lad, he would ditch them in micro seconds
The Problematic Hunter
New User
And the way you want us to ride would honestly make most hunters dangerous maniacs. I find it ironic that you say we can't ride jumper horses. I'm a hunter, I ride a large pony who is a bad refuser yet I've ridden an ex grand prix horse who was HOY 4 times in a row, I've ridden ottbs, and multiple rescue horses, also maybe I should remind you that Basically everyone on the US showjumping team grew up in the junior hunters, so if you want to call beezie madden a bad or ineffective rider
then be my guest.
Spirit2021
Well-Known Member
I going to be honest the same could be said about uk/ Irish riders most European countries consider the uk bad riders because of the lack of good teaching and most people have really bad habits . I don’t think the USA is actually to bad I think they spent a lot of time on position I think the uk could take a leaf out of there book.
mini_b
Well-Known Member
Ok without wading in but a quick one from those videos.. the rider in the tiktok vid was pulled forward from a little cow kick. Had the horse actually bucked or done a second buck their position was massively compromised.
This is not subjective of my opinion, that is an observation from watching the video.
That to me is not a good seat. Sorry
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Which means nothing, tbh. I rode hunters in the US since it was what was available to me. When I moved back overseas I started riding jumpers and then dressage. I then realized how much bad and useless habits I had picked up. Riding dressage has made me the most effective rider I've ever been. I give almost zero credit to my hunter background. Not because of bad trainers, I was successful, so it's not like I was at a B circuit backyard barn.
They may have started in the hunters, but that's not where they are now and clearly picked up further education (outside of the hunters) along the way. So it's a point, but not an incredibly strong one. Especially because they may have been like me, in a area where hunters is the most popular style, so they picked it up and then went from there.
I've also ridden a wide variety of horses, which doesn't mean I rode them all well or learned anything. It doesn't mean that you did either. I get what you're trying to argue, but this part of the argument is quite weak.
US hunters is not my cup of tea, but it doesn't have to be. If you're proud and happy with your discipline, then so be it.
mini_b
Well-Known Member
why does one rider head into jumps with absolutely zero contact? Not a light contact but washing line reins? What is the purpose of this?
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
I have watched hours of Equitation and Hunters. If you watch someone like Tori Colvin jump hunters and then go and jump normal showjumping classes she actually has a huge difference in style. The more traditionally correct for the Sjing classes and then the monkey up a tree look for hunters. I kind of find that fascinating and it says a lot about 'expectations'.
Equitation is much more correct in position and again loses a lot of the monkey up a tree look. Its why they then transition so successfully to the big jumping classes. You could not go round 1.40+ classes with the monkey up a tree look and it works because the horses are incredibly trained, athletic and only jumping 3'6 on the whole with the occasional 3'9 courses. Jumping 1.15m is easy peasy on a horse like that.
We do not have anything like Equitation in this class - NZ and Australia do. I also think its why the NZ and Australian eventers style is quite uniform as they normally start out in showjumping/equitation. George Morris before his crimes were finally revealed would often go to NZ but you would never find him coming to the UK because the styles are so vastly different.
I think we could do with a half way house in equitation. The Americans know distances like the back of their hand but they are also too drilled and not so good at dealing with imperfection. The UK are useless with distances at the normal RC level and have never made any effort to learn about them.
Equitation is much more correct in position and again loses a lot of the monkey up a tree look. Its why they then transition so successfully to the big jumping classes. You could not go round 1.40+ classes with the monkey up a tree look and it works because the horses are incredibly trained, athletic and only jumping 3'6 on the whole with the occasional 3'9 courses. Jumping 1.15m is easy peasy on a horse like that.
We do not have anything like Equitation in this class - NZ and Australia do. I also think its why the NZ and Australian eventers style is quite uniform as they normally start out in showjumping/equitation. George Morris before his crimes were finally revealed would often go to NZ but you would never find him coming to the UK because the styles are so vastly different.
I think we could do with a half way house in equitation. The Americans know distances like the back of their hand but they are also too drilled and not so good at dealing with imperfection. The UK are useless with distances at the normal RC level and have never made any effort to learn about them.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
?
I ride that way. You can see in my avatar. I've ridden 7 horses BE eventing and actually hunted about the same number, different horses and not one has turned into a dangerous maniac.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
The other thing is, now that I think of it, Hunters have strayed a bit far from actual hunting. The hunter horses are always on immaculate footing, going over small (usually less than 1.10m) and wide fences with good spacing and at an even pace.
Actual hunting is not like that and I think an eventer would transition better to hunting, IMO. I get that it needs to look easy and effortless so the rider could ride for miles (but this is the goal of many disciplines), but you just cannot compare the two anymore or say that a hunter would actually do well on the hunt field. Hunters in the ring has evolved into its own style. It's all about a certain style and look.
Actual hunting is not like that and I think an eventer would transition better to hunting, IMO. I get that it needs to look easy and effortless so the rider could ride for miles (but this is the goal of many disciplines), but you just cannot compare the two anymore or say that a hunter would actually do well on the hunt field. Hunters in the ring has evolved into its own style. It's all about a certain style and look.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I love this one. Titled "Hunters do not lean on the neck" it shows a rider rubbing her boobs up and then back down the horse's mane. She is definitely in contact with the neck. I suppose it would aid stability if you have big enough boobs to have one each side of the neck ?
.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I would call it "western jumping" , from what I know of how my friend trains her western horses on the flat. Hunters is a complete misnomer.
.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
and gone into 'jump' position half way round the arena. That monkey up a tree look would have the coconut before it even got to the jump.
marmalade76
Well-Known Member
I think the idea is a horse that would take your granny out hunting without dropping her?
I don't dislike the style, much better than all the wince inducing gob socking you see on Irish hunting vids if you ask me. What I don't like is the horses that go along with their heads on the floor in a canter that's more like a crawl, like the one in the vid Enfys posted - zombie horse for the zombie thread!
paddi22
Well-Known Member
edited as wasn't fair to be adding screen grabs of people for examples.
I really just don't like watching it because the riding positions are ineffective and weak. as the other poster said, one of the riders looked like they were coming off the side because of a single cow kick. it's quite a weak position, if a horse had a stumble or landed on a downhill slope after a fence the rider would be be gone, no support or balance. if a horse went to run to the side the rider isn't able to react in time. it's the kind of riding that suits riders who ride robotic, well-trained horses.
there's a lot to be said for well trained calm horses, but from my time in America seeing this system, these riders who learn on those type of well trained horses are limited to being competitors, not horse people. I'm not talking about beezie madden style people who grew up grafting and riding anything that came her way, I mean these riders who put style before effectiveness.
I really just don't like watching it because the riding positions are ineffective and weak. as the other poster said, one of the riders looked like they were coming off the side because of a single cow kick. it's quite a weak position, if a horse had a stumble or landed on a downhill slope after a fence the rider would be be gone, no support or balance. if a horse went to run to the side the rider isn't able to react in time. it's the kind of riding that suits riders who ride robotic, well-trained horses.
there's a lot to be said for well trained calm horses, but from my time in America seeing this system, these riders who learn on those type of well trained horses are limited to being competitors, not horse people. I'm not talking about beezie madden style people who grew up grafting and riding anything that came her way, I mean these riders who put style before effectiveness.
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CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
I do think, as with other disciplines, you have to watch carefully. Not all riders of every discipline are equal. There are things I don't like about US hunters as a whole, but some riders are less "offensive" than others.
TPO
Well-Known Member
Exactly
There is good and bad in every discipline
It is ignorant to dismiss a whole sector.
I'd much rather watch a smooth equitation round than the majority of show jumping rounds in the UK. It's not just luck or breeding that the horse and riders can maintain the same balanced canter and consistently take off from the correct spot. Not a very common sight in the UK!
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
though there is a massive machine behind Equitation. Those kids are in professional programmes on professionally trained horses. For that cost they should ride well. There are special horses at the barn to practice on, the ones they compete are ridden by experts and the horses are very carefully chosen. Those kids will be jumping 5 days a week at a professional barn on specially trained horses under the eye of an expert every single time.
TPO
Well-Known Member
True but there's plenty of rich folk buying "made" horses in this country too.
Theres plenty to written on COTH about the trials of the not so rich (I.e. normal folks!) competing and trying to make it. They do a massive amount of work on their canter and take offs. Even on home produced "budget" horses they are aiming for the same end result.
Picking up on your RC comment the same could be said at BS, BE and unaffiliated. It's not a common occurrence to see a round that could be described as smooth and consistent (fully include myself) yet that very thing is criticised fairly regularly on here if an american (Canadian) is doing it.
I find the attitude towards american/different from UK ways really strange. Along with the assumption that there is no contact when the horses are "on the bit" & in front of the leg. Contact isnt solely about about the tightness of the reins.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
I like the American style for Sjing. Light and classically beautiful in position when you look at the top guys. I can watch Mclain, Kent, Beezie, Laura etc for hours. I try and watch a lot of warm up when I am at places like Dublin and Windsor.
I was watching Tim Price Sj at Kentucky and Strezgom and he has a very easy contact. His horses are all very similar though - light and blood so need to run and jump. He is just a genius at placing them and helping them even when a bit special in their style. I ignore most of HHO as always a weird little cauldron of opinions which a lot are not correct in.