Difficult decision - literally any suggestions welcome!

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DifficultTimes

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Hi everyone,

Please forgive the long post, I would honestly be so grateful for any advice and your time reading this. I'm not one for posting on forums usually but I have limited people to ask advice from on this and am interested in any suggestions that others might have.

I am at a complete cross roads with my (1st) horse. I've had him for 2 years, rescued him from a dealer (I know, never again) and have tried almost everything I can think of and afford to turn his behaviour around. I've not been able to ride him properly in the whole time and I could have bought an extremely nice horse with the amount I've spent on him.

He was apparently gelded late (not a rig, tested) and hadn't done much in a couple of years before I had him. He's now 9, extremely opinionated and strong willed both when ridden and on the ground and is unmanageable (for most). He was on schooling livery at the local BHS approved riding yard who did a reasonable job with him and has been on a professional yard for the last 6 months. Their riders are fantastic and have done the best job they could but it's clear he doesn't enjoy any sort of work really and reverted to his rearing ways as of the weekend. This was his favourite at the previous yard about a year ago and I thought we had got past it. It was the worst I've ever seen.

I have tried to loan him but he is so difficult it's impossible. The only other options I can now think of, and I've tried to think of everything, are to retire him, sell him (probably would have to be to a dealer), give him to a charity who could try to re-home him better than me, or the option I don't really want to consider but that has to be considered.

Retirement seems unrealistic. Firstly he's physically healthy (has been fully checked and bone scanned at great expense!) and although would be happy, his manners deteriorate significantly when not in work so I'd be looking at the next 15yrs ish of turning out/bringing in a horribly mannered horse every day, or paying £35/week livery for the rest of his life.

I don't think I'm prepared to sell him to a dealer, as that's what's happened so many times to him before and I'm determined to not let that happen to him again. I'd also worry where he'd end up, may be badly treated because he's not pleasant sometimes and may ultimately end up on the meat market.

I'm currently speaking to the Blue Cross who said they may be able to help. I know they're all over run and I don't intend to palm him off, so need to do more digging on this. I accept they will put down if can't be re-homed BUT know they will only re-home him to someone suitable as a long term project unlike a dealer. Obviously would provide sizeable donation.

And the final option would be to consider PTS. I have absolutely no idea how someone is supposed to make the decision to have a healthy animal put down, regardless of behaviour. However a part of me says that this may be better than selling and him having an awful life because he really is not a happy chap. People are telling me I have done so much more than most would do already but to my mind I haven't tried EVERYTHING but I also know it's not realistic to try everything. When do you make the decision that enough is enough.

In terms of his behaviour, he's not your typical aggressive or fearful horse. He will load, catch, shoe etc fine and will work to a degree with a professional rider who rides 8hrs a day. But, a professional rider wouldn't buy a horse like him as he is a basic all rounder. And someone wanting a basic fun all rounder would massively struggle and he wouldn't be suitable. He nips/bites and does not really respond to natural horsemanship. You can't try fundamental theories like moving his feet because you can't get close enough before he bites out. It may sound funny, but he bit me on a fairly delicate part of my torso the other day and would have done some serious permanent damage had I been standing slightly closer. That was the crunch point. When ridden, if you're even slightly not on top of him for a moment, he will pull his head forwards to dislodge you and bunny hop followed by vertical rears afterwards when he doesn't want to do something. He is extremely clever and this is to test you NOT because he's in pain.

Literally if anyone has any suggestions at all I would be so grateful. I don't care if it's mad, I've tried clicker training him (unsuccessfully after he got bored) and all sorts so am very much up for barrel scraping! I've even considered he might have Special Needs or some kind of genuine psychological wiring issue, he really is a total odd ball.

Thanks for reading :)
 
Tbh it sounds like you've exhausted all options, and in your position I would PTS. Even if a charity was to try and rehome him what could they or a new home do that you can't?
As you say he could end up a lot worse of been passed from dealer to dealer or in and put of sales.
 
There's nothing wrong with putting such a horse to sleep.
You are expended a lot of money time and emotional energy on this horse , having a horse is supposed to be fun and you have certainly gone the extra miles for this one with very little pay back.
 
Mm, a tricky one. I know you have been paying out good money for training, but have you tried an Intelligent Horsemanship (Kelly Marks) person? I think they are honest in that if they think nothing can be done they would say so, and remember that they are dealing with problem horses all the time. I wonder what Monty Roberts would say about him? There is always Richard Maxwell too; I remember some of his magazine stories where he was often the "last chance saloon" for many horses - he too would give you an honest opinion.

There was a thread not long ago about late gelded stallions and how they are likely to turn out, but I would have expected a properly handled stallion to be better behaved than this. I know you have to watch out for biting from a stallion, but I haven't known any well brought up stallion to bite his owner.

(I do know how someone cured a biting stallion that WAS going to be PTS, as unmangeable but I think a PM might be than on an open forum. It was a last-chance thing, and I admit to not knowing ALL the details, but it worked and the stallion went on to have a successful riden, show and breeding career.)

As for your horse, I think you know your options are limited; the only other thing I could think of is as a Project Horse?
 
I would have him put down. There are too many nice horses needing homes and this horse has been given every chance and is unhappy.
 
What do the professionals working with him suggest? Any thing that they can tell you that might help you out when you are handling him on your own? I had a horse, a warmblood x, let's call him Mr X that began to act horribly after I moved him to a new yard after having him for 6 months-- striking when grooming or saddling, rearing at the mounting block, and it all got progressively worse. He even grabbed a yard friend of mine who went to rug him up one night when I was stuck at work, and he was unhappy his hay eating was disturbed, hay was like a religion to him, and he grabbed her by the shoulder and threw her across his stable!!!!! I was so upset with this horse-- was able to work with a trainer-- actually an old time sort of cowboy, and in a few sessions it was a different horse. It was about reminding the horse he was not the boss. Not exactly sure what you mean by moving the horse's feet-- this cowboy said to get the horse to back out of your space to wiggle/wave the leadrope attached to his head collar back and forth, until the horse backs up. In horse lingo, the horse has just acknowledged you are the boss. I used to have to do that with Mr X once in a while because occassionally he wanted to test out to see who was the boss-- but after he would back out of my space, he would lick his lips and become good as gold. That was what it took-- I wish I knew someone here in the UK to suggest that does that sort of horse training... it was gentle, not rushed, not violent, no gimmicks. One of the first thing the old cowboy did was tell me to put my martingale in the bin. Mr X settled down to be the most reliable horse--I could ride him bareback in the field, hack anywhere, jump anything-- he was fantastic.

Point being-- what seems like a hopeless case could have a happy ending-- but each case is also different.

If there is the equivalent of this old time cowboy in the UK-- I wish I knew!

Good luck-- it is a hard position to be in-- and hard to know what to do!


ETA-- just to clarify, it was not ONLY waving a leadrope at the horse that fixed his issues, there was a lot of other slow patient work that went on. I read back over what I read, and thought that it might be a bit unclear on that point!
 
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olivia x said:
What do the professionals working with him suggest? Any thing that they can tell you that might help you out when you are handling him on your own? I had a horse, a warmblood x, let's call him Mr X that began to act horribly after I moved him to a new yard after having him for 6 months-- striking when grooming or saddling, rearing at the mounting block, and it all got progressively worse. He even grabbed a yard friend of mine who went to rug him up one night when I was stuck at work, and he was unhappy his hay eating was disturbed, hay was like a religion to him, and he grabbed her by the shoulder and threw her across his stable!!!!! I was so upset with this horse-- was able to work with a trainer-- actually an old time sort of cowboy, and in a few sessions it was a different horse. It was about reminding the horse he was not the boss. Not exactly sure what you mean by moving the horse's feet-- this cowboy said to get the horse to back out of your space to wiggle/wave the leadrope attached to his head collar back and forth, until the horse backs up. In horse lingo, the horse has just acknowledged you are the boss. I used to have to do that with Mr X once in a while because occassionally he wanted to test out to see who was the boss-- but after he would back out of my space, he would lick his lips and become good as gold. That was what it took-- I wish I knew someone here in the UK to suggest that does that sort of horse training... it was gentle, not rushed, not violent, no gimmicks. One of the first thing the old cowboy did was tell me to put my martingale in the bin. Mr X settled down to be the most reliable horse--I could ride him bareback in the field, hack anywhere, jump anything-- he was fantastic.

Point being-- what seems like a hopeless case could have a happy ending-- but each case is also different.

If there is the equivalent of this old time cowboy in the UK-- I wish I knew!

Good luck-- it is a hard position to be in-- and hard to know what to do!


ETA-- just to clarify, it was not ONLY waving a leadrope at the horse that fixed his issues, there was a lot of other slow patient work that went on. I read back over what I read, and thought that it might be a bit unclear on that point!
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You are dead right, the boss horse is the one that moves the other horses around. So he is expecting you to get out of his way; the minute anyone steps back HE is boss. Still, I know that dealing with this is difficult and you would have to be very confident.
 
Thank you all SO much for the replies!

Sending him to a natural horsemanship person would be the complete last resort. A day clinic isn't going to cut it with him and the problems seem to arise a few weeks into a new home so could be looking at another hefty bill however but prepared to try to effectively save his life. Richard Maxwell had been recommended to me actually. However another person (very experienced) suggested a natural horsemanship person wouldn't do any more than a professional yard with correct handling techniques...opinions?

Ultimately, he is completely the wrong horse for me and if buying again would be looking at something totally different, as interests and budget have changed. So the aim is to get him to a place where he could have a good life with someone else, or at least call it a day knowing he's had the best last couple of years I could give.

I don't think he could be a field ornament due to behaviour when not in work and don't have own land, although may in a few years.

Orangehorse - I will PM you, as I say, looking for ANY suggestions so would be interested in the situation you mentioned.

Brightbay - Is a behaviourist different to the people who do natural horsemanship do you know? If so, I didn't realise that might be available.

Olivia x - Thank you, unfortunately this horse is wise to the 'scary rope' techniques, I have tried Join Up with him for about 25/30mins before, round and round and never once got a lick of the lips. He's tough as anything. The yard are great with him and handle him well although I think are getting ticked off with the biting now. I asked for an honest opinion and they said sell to a reputable dealer but as previously stated I feel that's wrong for him.

Thank you to all those who have said PTS, I appreciate the honesty. I know it's a real possibility and have been researching this evening what that process involves to make myself face up to it. It's just so sad, we have had our lovely moments and massive breakthroughs and some lovely memories. If only they understood eh!
 
Regandal said:
I know you said he's not in pain, what has been done/investigated to rule this out? Just curious!
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Hi there Regandal, the usual saddle and teeth checks have been done. He was also sent for a full bone scan as we thought it might be some underlying lameness but all came back completely fine. Did have a slightly inflamed sacro-illiac but vets opinions were not enough to warrant behaviour.
 
What's difficult decision to make. Everyone reacts to these situations differently, but there comes a point in time when a solution has to be found. Are you aware of the BHS scheme to provide support owners making the final decision, it might help to talk it through with someone knowledge.

I think you are caring and responsible to make the decision not to sell him on, he could go through as you say some awful yards with his problems. I also do think it is a very big commitment to undertake to keep him through a long retirement.

Animals are often unpredictable, they do have behaviour issues, and they are not always possible to solve, when you feel you can not take it anymore, it is your decision and if you choose pts, it would be a kind and caring option.
 
So he bites when you handle him and rears when someone rides him - does he do anything else? If he stopped biting and was more enthusiastic about his work would he then become a useable horse? He sounds as though he had some education, he was broken to ride and is oK in some respects, so must have had some foundations. Maybe he he was handled incorrectly and found he could do as he pleased, or is he really agressive by nature? Does he hack? Would he do endurance? You haven't said what breed he is or how big.
 
Adopter said:
What's difficult decision to make. Everyone reacts to these situations differently, but there comes a point in time when a solution has to be found. Are you aware of the BHS scheme to provide support owners making the final decision, it might help to talk it through with someone knowledge.

I think you are caring and responsible to make the decision not to sell him on, he could go through as you say some awful yards with his problems. I also do think it is a very big commitment to undertake to keep him through a long retirement.

Animals are often unpredictable, they do have behaviour issues, and they are not always possible to solve, when you feel you can not take it anymore, it is your decision and if you choose pts, it would be a kind and caring option.
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Thank you for this, I didn't know the BHS offered that and will call them tomorrow. I don't want anything for him and he would suit someone genuinely looking for a long term project but there are no guarantees that's what he'd get of course.
 
Please don't rehome him - having been the fall guy in a situation where a damaged horse was being passed on and ending up with me I know that they just go round and round through dodgy dealers until someone has the guts to do the honest thing with them. If he is healthy bodily then that's a plus point! But it does make it emotionally very difficult to pts. I think that there are options if you are prepared to risk more money - Richard Maxwell for example. Will pm you.
 
I do know how you must be feeling and the thousand and one different emotions and hopes. I for one ,would not consider any the less of you ,and in fact would consider it a courageous and caring act to PTS.
I had a dangerous horse, I loved him to bits . But he would have killed me in an instant ,if I did the wrong thing at the wrong moment. Yet at the right time and place ,kids could pat and pet him in total safety. I was really at a loss as to what to do. I could not in all conscience have ever sold him . I was even considering PTS if I couldnt find a yard where they could handle him safely and with kindness. In the end he died out hunting (which he loved ) No cause for his death was ever found and I believe that there was somthing wrong that the vets couldnt find which kept turning an otherwise loving animal into a monster.He was only 6 when he died.
 
My advice would be to stop dabbling with natural Horsemanship/join up etc and LISTEN to the horse. He is telling you that there is a problem. The vet has pinpointed sacro-illiac trouble. The vet might think it's not enough to cause the behaviour, the horse obviously thinks differently. Maybe he's got a low pain threshold. I would also cut out all feed except forage.
NB Whilst I don't practice NH, I have absolutely nothing against the techniques done properly, in fact many of them are very similar to the traditional methods I use, when used by an expert. But in the hands of amateurs, they just confuse the horse.
So IMO you have 3 options
1. investigate the sacro-iliac problem thoroughly. Have you tried a bute trial?
2. Investigate whether a change of diet to a completely forage-based diet helps (if not already done)
3. PTS, whatever else happens please don't pass him on.
 
DifficultTimes said:
Did have a slightly inflamed sacro-illiac but vets opinions were not enough to warrant behaviour.
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I would look more into this.
Vets may not think it should be an issue, but something definately is.

He could well be just a badly behaved horse that has learnt how to get away with things.
But with the professional help you have had and the 2 years of owning him and giving him normal dissipline, you should have seen even a slight improvement.

I think there is some pain, somewhere.
 
I wouldn't advise passing him on as a project horse. He already has been a project horse for two years and it isn't working.

I agree with investigating the sacroiliac problem, if you want to carry on with him rather than PTS.

There was another thread recently where someone suggested a horse be retired to the field with no handling, until the day there's a problem, then dope in food, catch and PTS. Maybe this could give your horse a few more months of life before you PTS, if it sits better on your conscience that way.

You say he doesn't enjoy any work. Is that just ridden work? Would he possibly be suited as a driving horse? You say his behaviour is better with work, so does he need to be in hard work as a hunter or endurance horse maybe?

If he was mine though, I would probably PTS at this point, if further investigation of the sacroiliac problem didn't provide a solution to his behaviour problems. 2yrs and constant professional help/vet investigations is plenty long enough to try, especially for a horse who you know isn't right for you.
 
Yes to exploring pain etc...
But I want to ask a big question - despite all his bad qualities - do you like this horse? Do you want a relationship with him?
I adopted a late-gelded rescue TB a few years back. He was minimally handled, dominant, aggressive, stubborn etc. It took a year of getting to know him before I broke him in, almost 3 years in we still have issues with picking up feet, standing still etc... but I perservered through bites, kicks, tears because I loved him, I could see that underneath it all was a great horse, a character I really liked - and that he really did like the interaction.
I think if you think he's worth it, do whatever you need to. If not... PTS is a humane option.
 
Is there any repercussions to him biting people?

Challenging horses like this are the ones you learn the most from, but without seeing the horse it hard to know where to start. Can you post some videos?
 
Pearlsasinger said:
My advice would be to stop dabbling with natural Horsemanship/join up etc and LISTEN to the horse. He is telling you that there is a problem. The vet has pinpointed sacro-illiac trouble. The vet might think it's not enough to cause the behaviour, the horse obviously thinks differently. Maybe he's got a low pain threshold. I would also cut out all feed except forage.
NB Whilst I don't practice NH, I have absolutely nothing against the techniques done properly, in fact many of them are very similar to the traditional methods I use, when used by an expert. But in the hands of amateurs, they just confuse the horse.
So IMO you have 3 options
1. investigate the sacro-iliac problem thoroughly. Have you tried a bute trial?
2. Investigate whether a change of diet to a completely forage-based diet helps (if not already done)
3. PTS, whatever else happens please don't pass him on.
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^^^ This
 
I would stop throwing money at him. He is highly unlikely ever to be a horse you can enjoy. I would PTS and move on. You have given this horse a couple of years of kindness and caring, which is a lot more than thousands of horses out there have ever had.
 
just a thought. have you had eyes checked. my vet believed failing sight was reason to My mares issues before i bought her (granted not aggressive but still dangerous) and is often overlooked as poss issue. But im another saying please dont pass on. How ever hard the decision to pts can be sometimes its the correct decision not just from time and money but more importantly morally correct for horse.
 
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