Difficult decision - literally any suggestions welcome!

[Patterdale]

My gut feeling is that there's something wrong with this horse, health wise. However, he may just be a sod.

Either way, I wouldn't pass him on. How would you feel if you found out he'd really injured someone?
I'd either bute trial then go back to the vets for further investigations, or if I decided I'd already invested enough in this horse is PTS.

However, this may sound odd but if I PTS then I'd send him to the kennels. That way, he'd be 'useful' at the last, and for my conscience it would be no different to the cattle or lambs going off. If that makes sense!

 

[Sussexbythesea]

My friend had some success with and aggressive biter who she sent to Jason Webb. However the solution was more about how she has been told to manage him after his training and it hasn't fully cured him as such or turned him into a angel so she still has to make sure she handles him in a certain way. It also means that not just anyone can handle him. Riding wise though he is lovely and overall a successful allrounder so it is worth the management issues for her.

I certainly wouldn't be passing your horse on to anyone else and you have certainly given the horse more chances than most people would. If you want to try other suggestions to satisfy yourself then go ahead but equally if you have had enough then I don't think there is anything wrong with having him PTS. I've been in a similar position with a wobbler who I tried for two years to find a solution and I understand the mental toll it can take. Having him PTS (at the time he was happy unridden in a field) was one of the most difficult decisions I have ever made but allowed me to move on with my life.

 

[eahotson]

JUST BRIEFLY. Ring the BHS as has been suggested already and pm KellyMarks who is the head of intelligent horsemanship.She is an experienced horse woman and very level headed.She may be kind enough to reply. As others have said, you have given him the best 2 years of his life and no one sensible would blame you for putting to sleep.

 

[Tobiano]

Hi - what a difficult situation for you OP. I am with those who say whatever you do, please don't pass him on as a project or whatever - far far kinder to PTS if you feel you have come to the end of the road. If you do want to try a last chance for him and you can afford to spend the money then I would discuss with your vet all options for investigating any pain issues one last time. I would also recommend Kelly Marks / Intelligent Horsemanship. You dont have to send him away - there are skilled people in IH (Recommended Associates) who will come and work with your horse and you regularly on the problems - they show YOU how to behave with the horse rather than claim to 'fix' the problem and hand him back. If they cannot help they will tell you. You can google Intelligent Horsemanship and look for a RA in your area if that is something you are willing to try. They charge about #30 - #35 an hour normally plus travel costs.

Having said that you have clearly done an awful lot already for this horse and nobody should blame you if you decided that your only option was PTS.

Horrible decision so hugs and moral support vibes. x

 

[jrp204]

Ultimately you have to have a clear conscience, not for him but for a potential new owner/rider. You have done everything you can for him and as has been said before there are worse things than PTS. This is your decision and no doubt there will be people who will say they can sort him etc but he is your horse and you know what he is capable of, if you make the decision to PTS don't be talked out of it.

 

[cptrayes]

My vet tells me that a bute trial is ineffective for sacroiliac injury.

 

[jodie3]

He doesn't look like the horse in my avatar does he???


What about getting a thermal image done? Not sure if that is the correct term for it but I know several people on the forum behave used it with good results. I don't think it is that expensive and would pinpoint if there was a problem area.

Otherwise I am afraid I would seriously consider PTS. He sounds like a horse who has been pushed from owner to owner and is lucky he has ended with you who will do the right thing by him.

 

[SadKen]

I can understand those saying that it's likely to be a pain issue but there is also the chance that it's psychological imho.

Nowhere near as bad but my old lad was sensitive and somewhat difficult to manage, and far too much for me; he's with a new owner and is finally getting the iron discipline he required and is a different animal as a result.

Having been in your position to an extent (although not in danger of life and limb, at least on the ground and only onboard due to not having enough skill) I considered the options you listed. My first option was to try and rehome to someone with a great deal of experience having been honest about what my lad needed. The second was to PTS. Third was to send him away for retraining. I discounted this because even if it was successful, I would still be the same person and would not be able to manage him or want to ride him really.

I was lucky and found someone; my lad was a purebred Arabian which did mean he had some value to a buyer. Lost a lot of money, but I do have a clear conscience. I would have PTS if that wasn't possible.

Just to say as well that if you do decide to do this, I really hope you find another horse to love as I think you've been a very committed owner who deserves to enjoy her time with her horse.

 

[Brightbay]

Brightbay - Is a behaviourist different to the people who do natural horsemanship do you know? If so, I didn't realise that might be available.

Totally different. A qualified behaviourist is someone who works alongside a vet in the same way as a physio. They specialise in working with problem behaviours, and because they work only under veterinary referral, they liaise with the vet in terms of whether behaviours observed may or may not be due to pain or illness.

They do not need to see the horse performing the problem behaviours in order to treat, but they do need to meet you, the horse, examine the horse's management, training and living conditions in detail. Basically the equine version of a human psychologist (which is what I am - my friends who went a different route post training are equine behaviourists).

If you want to PM me with an approximate location, I can most likely recommend someone near you. The key way to differentiate between someone who says they're "a behaviourist" and someone who actually is qualified is that only the qualified ones will mention veterinary referral. Just as with qualified physios and "back people"

This article explains some of it (and some of the people involved in the website are behaviourists, some are not). http://www.ebta.co.uk/faq-behaviourist.html

 

[flyingfeet]

Honestly - PTS

This will cost the same as rehoming with the Blue Cross (£300), and depending on how he is passported you could send to Potters

If you pass him along he is just going to be a problem for someone else, it looks like you have given him every opportunity at different places and frankly there are other horses out there looking for homes that would dearly love your attention. There are plenty of horses who deserve to be field ornaments, but he doesn't sound like one of them.

I rescued a horse early last year and he is the most grateful lovely horse to work with, however had he turned out not to be, it would have been a one way ticket to Potters.

 

[Wagtail]

How big is he? Is he good with vets and needles? If so, the blood bank could be an option for him.

I'm assuming he has had a full lameness work up, spine xrays etc? Has he been checked for ulcers?

 

[Wagtail]

My advice would be to stop dabbling with natural Horsemanship/join up etc and LISTEN to the horse. He is telling you that there is a problem. The vet has pinpointed sacro-illiac trouble. The vet might think it's not enough to cause the behaviour, the horse obviously thinks differently. Maybe he's got a low pain threshold. I would also cut out all feed except forage.

Excellent advice. We have a horse here that has an extremely low pain threshold. Things that most horses would work through, make her totally unrideable. The latest is slightly sharp teeth. Each time there has been a physical cause, and she has had thousands spent on her investigating. But the slightest niggle and she will totally refuse to work and will full on rear if pushed. So each time we spend months getting to the bottom of her latest problem, solve it and she works again...until the next thing.

 

[ester]

He bites so I cannot see the BB being an option.

I would PTS I think, SI injuries are notoriously difficult to treat/recurrent and you don't even know that is what is causing the behaviour because you don't have a record of him being a good horse with you then going bad. I think you have been pretty fair to him so far but that it is also your choice when to call time on that.

 

[Wagtail]

He bites so I cannot see the BB being an option.

It depends why he bites. If he's in pain through being ridden and worked, or just because he is a nasty soanso. If it's the former, then having a stress free life with a herd (so long as he isn't needle phobic), could see the biting completely disappear. If he's just a nasty soanso, then I would PTS. Though I don't believe that many horses are like that. There is usually a physical or emotional cause.

 

[conniegirl]

Please talk to melanie watson at http://www.instinctivehorsetraining.co.uk/
She is honestly a miricle worker.
My lad was sent to several other proffessionals (including 1 NH lady from Intellegent horsemanship) to break and normaly he was returned with the words "shoot it, it is dangerous!" (although the intellegent horsemanship lady put it nicer and said she didnt think he would ever make a ridden horse).
As a last ditch effort I sent him to Melanie, in just under 9 weeks she had most of his issues sorted (and believe me he had a lot of them) she had me on board and hacking out alone on the roads!
The pony has since gone on to compete in dressage (69% in his first ever test) and showing, has been to CHAPS Champs and behaved impeccibly for the entire time we were there (and came away with a rosette in every class). I'm about to start teaching him to jump and he is honestly a realy lovely pony who now makes me smile every time I see him
we've had 1 or 2 set backs along the way but melanie has been there to sort them out for me and put us both back on track.

She is also to the point and will tell you if she doesnt think she can fix the horse and what your options would be (and what she thinks is best for the horse).

 

[tabithakat64]

It seems like you've really tried to help this horse in the time that you've had him. If you have the funds to do so I would have the SI issues fully investigated by Rossdales or similar and if the prognosis is good have him assessed by Richard Maxwell or Jason Webb.
If you are going to have him assessed by someone else please only use a well respected professional with multiple recommendations as this will give you your best chance of a positive outcome.

In your situation I would PTS rather than pass this horse on as it's the most responsible thing to do for the horse.

I was very lucky to have my horse on a yard where he was only handled by me and two others as he could be dangerous on the ground if not handled consistently by someone confident, I adored him and sadly lost him last year.

 

[tiggybeans]

I would have him put down. There are too many nice horses needing homes and this horse has been given every chance and is unhappy.

This. You have done your best for him. PTS is the kindest option.

 

[cheeryplatypus]

He sounds very like a horse I used to own. It doesn't sound like he is a very nice person and his behaviour doesn't lend himself to a job. Rearing is dangerous and scary.

With his dominant behaviour it sounds like he would cause trouble in the herd at a rescue centre and IMO they would be better investing time on a horse whose life could be turned around and given a job to do.

I think I would consider PTS. Sorry

 

[Baileybones]

Hi OP - I've PM'd you

 

[ExmoorHunter]

I would stop throwing money at him. He is highly unlikely ever to be a horse you can enjoy. I would PTS and move on. You have given this horse a couple of years of kindness and caring, which is a lot more than thousands of horses out there have ever had.

This and this:-
http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/press-centre/news/jan-to-jun-2014/rescue-me

I've been in a similar situation and feel for you. I do not regret the decision I made as I know the horse is not being neglected or abused and is not a problem to anyone else.

 

[wench]

IMO it depends on how much more you have to spend/want to spend on the horse. If he has cleaned your bank accounts out, or you do not want to spend any more, have him PTS. If you look up Yasandcrystal (I think that's her name), she had a horse with numerous problems.

If he was my horse, the first thing I would try is an animal communicator. They are relatively cheap, about £50, and I have used two with accurate results: Ann Dee and Jackie Weaver. This could just help you identify where any problems lay.

Do you have any insurance left on the horse? If not, if you have someone local to you, TI should be able to do a whole scan of the horse from anywhere between £60 - £100. Should show up any potential problematic areas.

Yasandcrystal had used an iridologist for their horse. I have also used one before on mine - the results were interesting, but was more out of interest than for any other problem.

You can get a "bio-energetic hair test" done. People on here will probably rubbish them, but one I had done by Crossgates Bioenergetics accurately showed up problems in my horse. Never got chance to try their remedy on my horse though, so cannot comment on it's effectiveness. Crossgates is about £80, and you have the results back in a few days. There is a chap on facebook called "The Natural Medicine Man", and his hair tests are £30, but take a month for the results to come back. I have had one done out of interest for my new horse, so see if his remedy does anything!

Yasandcrystal sent her horse to Donna Blinman (or similar name) vet in Newmarket. If you are willing to spend money, this may be an option. As another poster has said, your horse could have ulcers. Has he been xrayed for kissing spine at all? Bone scan would not show up KS, unless it was "active".

Finally, the last thing to do, after veterinary checking would be to send away to Jason Webb or similar.

 

[Templebar]

Hi, i have not read all the posts, but just wanted to try and offer a different perspective on this.

What is he like with other horses, particularly ponies?
I am just thinking of what a few people around me have done with young horses that have got a bit too big for their boots and started biting or kicking and generally being a pain to people and other horses. The answer we have found was to find a smallish (about 12hh) native pony usually of some age but still active and mobile. My pony was used once and she was a 12hh dartmoor mare. The pony must be easily manageable but with attitude is the best way to describe them. We put just the two of them together in a field and wait. Usually the large horse tries to boss the smaller pony, but the smaller one being usually more agile and with attitude puts the horse in its place and then the pony becomes boss. However this is the important bit is you can then work with the pony and the horse sees the pony respecting you and therefore they start to respect you, along with reinforcing good behaviour and ignoring bad behaviour.

Just my thoughts, might not work but since he is young it might be worth a try.

 

[ladyt25]

I agree with others who suggest there is quite likely a physical problem with this horse. Ulcers can cause aggressive type behaviour as can back pain - this may well be aggravated when ridden and especially if the horse tenses up expecting pain. Having seen my youngster's extreme reaction to a pinching saddle, pain can cause all sorts of behaviour and reactions and different horses have varying degrees of tolerance. My youngster's pain threshold is very low (I have now discovered) so this is something I will now bear in mind going forward. However, if someone had ignored these signs and continued I am pretty sure he would have ended up labelled as 'dangerous' and aggressive as well. I would certainly not pass this horse on but maybe try some changes in his management initially. Treat for ulcers, take him off any hard feed if he needs feed then maybe just try the likes of a fibre feed only. Maybe even try an animal communicator! Well, nothing to lose really. Professional riders do have a tendency to try and force a 'bad horse's into submission rather than actually trying to find out the reasons for the behaviour.

 

[xgemmax]

Have you checked for Kissing spines? Could be a cause of the rearing? Or gastric ulcers? Could explain the biting as they become irritable and uncomfortable?

 

[BayLady]

My advice would be to stop dabbling with natural Horsemanship/join up etc and LISTEN to the horse. He is telling you that there is a problem. The vet has pinpointed sacro-illiac trouble. The vet might think it's not enough to cause the behaviour, the horse obviously thinks differently. Maybe he's got a low pain threshold. I would also cut out all feed except forage.
NB Whilst I don't practice NH, I have absolutely nothing against the techniques done properly, in fact many of them are very similar to the traditional methods I use, when used by an expert. But in the hands of amateurs, they just confuse the horse.
So IMO you have 3 options
1. investigate the sacro-iliac problem thoroughly. Have you tried a bute trial?
2. Investigate whether a change of diet to a completely forage-based diet helps (if not already done)
3. PTS, whatever else happens please don't pass him on.

I agree with this, just because a vet doesn't think the inflammation is enough to cause bad behaviour, your horse is the only one who actually knows if this is the case and it sounds like, in the absence of anything else obvious going on, he thinks it hurts.

My old mare had SI problems and at their worst they turned her from a loving and well mannered hack into a bucking bronco who also kicked out at the yard staff as they passed her in the field and bit quite seriously. A series of really good physio appointments followed by a period of field rest, special shoeing and a rehab programme starting in hand and working up to under saddle did sort the problem out but it took a couple of years to really get on top of it. Her's was supposed to end her ridden career though as it was deemed as a serious injury, other horses don't take so long to rehabilitate.

A behaviourist would also be worth considering. My instructor is also a behaviourist and her approach is quite different to that of NH trainers I've used in the past. Some seemingly very simple exercises have done wonders with my somewhat bolshy 4yr old.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Bless you- Its such a horrible situation to be in.
Luckily for us I knew our horse before his behaviour turned bad so I also knew he had a problem.
Vets, physio's dentists saddlers £100's of pounds in time money and effort later I decided to go against vets advice and have his eye removed (he had a problem which was apparently under control) but it was a real last resort.
Best thing I ever did, I started him again from scratch and we are hoping he will be pony clubbing this summer. In my opinion this proves that he must have been in severe pain.
I guess what im saying is don't 100% believe all your told re- pain BUT at the same time PTS is not an awful thing to do- It may well save you or someone in the future from injury or worse and it sounds like he's not a particularly happy boy tbh.
Horses are so expensive and its something your supposed to enjoy so maybe its time to call it a day and get a nice well mannered horse you can have fun with and enjoy owning.
xx

 

[Orangehorse]

OP I have been thinking about your horse all day! I notice you have had the usual checks done including X rays, but have you had a check for ulcers? Lots and lots of horses have ulcers. It is very painful and several horses have been transformed once the cause of their discomfort was found.

 

[YasandCrystal]

My advice would be to stop dabbling with natural Horsemanship/join up etc and LISTEN to the horse. He is telling you that there is a problem. The vet has pinpointed sacro-illiac trouble. The vet might think it's not enough to cause the behaviour, the horse obviously thinks differently. Maybe he's got a low pain threshold. I would also cut out all feed except forage.
NB Whilst I don't practice NH, I have absolutely nothing against the techniques done properly, in fact many of them are very similar to the traditional methods I use, when used by an expert. But in the hands of amateurs, they just confuse the horse.
So IMO you have 3 options
1. investigate the sacro-iliac problem thoroughly. Have you tried a bute trial?
2. Investigate whether a change of diet to a completely forage-based diet helps (if not already done)
3. PTS, whatever else happens please don't pass him on.

^^ This exactly. My WB was a dangerous most aggressive horse until I finally got him diagnosed with chronic sacro illiac dysfunction. His SI showed NO hotspot on the bone scan as it was an old and chronic injury. I got LOU for my horse. He has been undergoing rehab for the last 18 months and he would never dream of biting or attacking me know. Not so long ago he could easily have killed me. My horse wasonly diagnosed through nerve blocking. SI problems are very painful. Has he also got ulcers from the stress?
I would be sending him to a holistic vet to get to the root cause and treat him - my holistic vet is also an osteopath and she mobilised my horse's sacrum. Agressive behaviour is NOT normal - he is in pain.

Thanks wench - she has referred to my now lovely boy Tim. Yes I used alternative therapies to diagnose my horse and my wonderful vet believed me I was so passionate about the outcomes from these - an iridology report, a shiatsu therapist session (she cried when she touched my horse) and a communication. They all said r/h upper hind injury. I got my referral to Newmarket and Sue Dyson's clinic and lo and behold he was diagnosed with his SI dyfunction r/h side. Even his hoof capsule was slightly smaller that side (grown now! he is moving better) and he plaited behind. He passed a 5 stage vetting and the vet even said he was the best horse he had passed in a long time.

Honestly my horse was that bad - I am not saying it is for everyone to follow up and get to teh bottom of a problem, but a problem I can guarantee there will be.

Do feel free to pm me I am happy to talk to you about all the things I did and help where I can.

 

[moana]

It sounds to me as if you have done everything possible for this horse. Unfortunately, for behavioural reasons, sometimes the best course of action, even for a healthy horse, is PTS. I am really sorry as this is no doubt an option/opinion you don't wish to hear or deal with.

 

[DifficultTimes]

WOW, thank you all so much, I had no idea so many people would reply to this, genuinely so grateful! Will try to quote replies as I go...