Disappointed dressage mum :(

Achinghips said:
Thats the plan but we don't play with handicaps in dressage, like golf
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sorry, i dont *get* what point you are trying to make?

the FEI directives are there for all to see, and judges use them, what more is there to say on that?

if your horse does not meet the directives (through lack or training), then train harder, get better, if your horse cannot meet them (due to physical limitations) you either accept it, and accept you will be beaten by those that find it physically easy, or you sell your horse and buy something that finds it physically easy.
 
This is a very good reason why kids should go to PC and do a bit of everything and not worry too much about scores and stuff.

I really think the way a lot of kids do just one discipline from a young age is killing our ability to be good all round horse people!

Just an aside really....
 
Jesstickle said:
This is a very good reason why kids should go to PC and do a bit of everything and not worry too much about scores and stuff.

I really think the way a lot of kids do just one discipline from a young age is killing our ability to be good all round horse people!

Just an aside really....
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See, I would disagree with that (but to be fair it all comes down to what you encounter) most kids I know of, do go to PC etc and do a 'bit of everything' and actually, I would like to see more focusing on just the one discipline. If you are going to do any discipline well, different perspectives from different disciplines may well be encorporated into the training anyway. (I.e, SJers do need to be pretty hot on their flatwork) that way, I feel we will have less 'Jack of all trades, master of none' riders and more focused, polished and dare I say more sophisticated riders.
 
Thank you for all your replies and reading your experiences has made more sense to me now, I'm also new to dressage as I've never been interested in it myself.

Just a couple of points - Cortez - I'm not in any way asking for kinder marks against adults nowhere in my post have I stated that, I was just confused by the two different judges as they pretty much went the same in both tests, all I'm trying to say is that sometimes a couple of positive remarks go a long way to softening the blow when surely it can't have been all negative? With youngsters they can be put off easily and today daughter says her riding isn't good enough for dressage, but obviously this will change tomorrow lol, thank you anyway.

Crabbymare - thank you, you have hit the nail on the head and explained it very well. Yes daughter was very much concentrating on getting the test itself right which they did, but I can totally see what you're saying and that's very helpful.

I will show her instructor next week both test results and take it from there!
 
shannonandtay said:
Thank you for all your replies and reading your experiences has made more sense to me now, I'm also new to dressage as I've never been interested in it myself.

Just a couple of points - Cortez - I'm not in any way asking for kinder marks against adults nowhere in my post have I stated that, I was just confused by the two different judges as they pretty much went the same in both tests, all I'm trying to say is that sometimes a couple of positive remarks go a long way to softening the blow when surely it can't have been all negative? With youngsters they can be put off easily and today daughter says her riding isn't good enough for dressage, but obviously this will change tomorrow lol, thank you anyway.

Crabbymare - thank you, you have hit the nail on the head and explained it very well. Yes daughter was very much concentrating on getting the test itself right which they did, but I can totally see what you're saying and that's very helpful.

I will show her instructor next week both test results and take it from there!
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Well done to your daughter for giving it a go and I hope she carries on. 2 outings is nothing to base a decision on, I think she was unlucky to get a harsh judge early on.
Regardless of level or age judges should be encouraging and give guidance on what can be improved rather than slating the faults.
My trainer was writing at a big show the other day and said that even some of the top level riders competing at Inter 1 were doing wobbly circles and not riding their corners, even they get 4's sometimes.
 
OP, you are highlighting the problems with judging at unaffiliated/PC/RC

You get a massive variety of judging.

Sometimes you get a good BD listed judge who marks according to the test directive and gives marks that are an accurate reflection of the test. The comments should always be constructive (although I appreciate you do get the odd misery guts judging!)

Sometimes you get either an untrained judge (or a trained judge that has been specifically asked to be encouraging on the marks) - who will give inflated marks compared to the directive - thinking they are being nice to competitors, whereas in fact they are just confusing the matter more in my opinion.

Then you get the untrained judge that is just a completed and utter prat.

The problem is for less experienced people, is really knowing and understanding not only the way judging works but also the correct way of going for a horse. And to be honest that is knowledge that takes years to really understand.

It's why I don't really ride unaffiliated any more, bar perhaps a RC team qualifier or a very first outing on a 4yo. BD judges get their fair share of critiscism but on the whole I find my marks are pretty consistent, the comments clear and even if I'm a bit disgruntled with a lowish mark at first, on reflection I can see it was probably fair.
 
A child should not be given special treatment or adjusted scores as it can leave them disheartened when they move up a level. A lot of children compete equally with adults and often outperform them, so all tests should be accurately and fairly marked whether it is a junior only or mixed age class. The judge wouldn't have had time to give many encouraging training pointers on the sheet but if they have reflected the gaps in training or next step to work on then they have done the job. Let your daughter's instructor see the sheet and ask her for a lesson concentrating on improving and understanding one of the issues.

However, if your daughter is looking to do a lot of dressage try contacting your local BYRDS rep and join up, it offers training and some social/fun times along with support for them.
 
Perfect_Pirouette said:
See, I would disagree with that (but to be fair it all comes down to what you encounter) most kids I know of, do go to PC etc and do a 'bit of everything' and actually, I would like to see more focusing on just the one discipline. If you are going to do any discipline well, different perspectives from different disciplines may well be encorporated into the training anyway. (I.e, SJers do need to be pretty hot on their flatwork) that way, I feel we will have less 'Jack of all trades, master of none' riders and more focused, polished and dare I say more sophisticated riders.
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^^ just on this point. I actually disagree. Firstly I like being a jack of all trades:p Secondly, it can become too pressurised for both horse and rider at an early stage. Unless a child expressly wants to just focus on one discipline I think it's great to do everything. My horse's short eventing career set us up for her second career as a dressage horse. She's balanced, forward and spook-proof :D Plus we have a whole load of other tricks to do to help keep her mind and body on an even keel.

I did everything I could get to at PC - dressage, jumping, mounted games (fab, fab general skills from that).

As to the OP, I agree with what PS wholeheartedly and said the same on another recent thread. It's a shame if the daughter feels disheartened but I don't think the judging was *wrong* (as with the last thread on this subject, videos would help enormously ;))
 
Sunshine said:
A child should not be given special treatment or adjusted scores as it can leave them disheartened when they move up a level. A lot of children compete equally with adults and often outperform them, so all tests should be accurately and fairly marked whether it is a junior only or mixed age class. The judge wouldn't have had time to give many encouraging training pointers on the sheet but if they have reflected the gaps in training or next step to work on then they have done the job. Let your daughter's instructor see the sheet and ask her for a lesson concentrating on improving and understanding one of the issues.

However, if your daughter is looking to do a lot of dressage try contacting your local BYRDS rep and join up, it offers training and some social/fun times along with support for them.
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Honestly I cant state enough that I don't expect children to get preferential treatment, my daughter wouldn't expect it either. As I said in my first post the judge certainly wasn't gushing in her first test, mistakes were made and she pointed those out which was great as daughter then started working on them, this time it was vague and outline was mentioned about four times and again at the comments on the bottom of the page. All I was trying to ask was is this expected at intro level and I can see that obviously it is lol. I will look into BYRDS, thank you for that.
 
I'm not criticising you Shannonandtay, I'm trying to explain that the judge training doesn't expect them to make allowances for age. At small RC club events or even some PC there isn't always the expectation for consistent outline or contact. At Intro level there is likely to be all sorts of training issues, from those who are first timers and want to see what dressage is like to those who are starting a baby and want some low pressure arena practice.

I do think though that maybe the judge could have found other, perhaps more constructive, ways to comment on the lack of outline, instead of repeating the same comment, most judges I work with will. I suppose its lucky really that your daughter has had the harsher score at this stage, with only one other test to compare rather than when she had been competing for a while. At least she can take this last sheet as the base line so early in her training, start to improve on it and get a better score next time. It can be a good way for her to be determined, the "I'll show you!" attitude. ;-)
 
I think judge experience counts a lot. I used to ride a horse who was tricky at best. He did however look pretty in a dressage arena even if he felt blooming awful. Judges (eventing) in the main seemed to love him. Jean Mitchell judged us one day and was the only judge who actually wrote on the sheet exactly what I felt underneath me. However she was really positive about her criticism, comments were written in a really nice way. Another day, another horse and an epic fail in the prep. Horse put stud through coronet band during warm up and I forgot the fly spray resulting in a test where the horse constantly chucked his head about and I took a fit of the giggles half way through. The SJ couldn't come quickly enough! The judge was lovely and commented at the bottom that it was well ridden in spite of the flies. His mark was pants lol. I think judges can be critical but nice at the same time & TBH those are the ones I have a lot more respect for. I scribed for one judge who had me write 'needs more downward stretch' on every test sheet at a small local event. Not the most helpful comment for kids on their ponies. Their sheets were full of one liners with very few positive comments. I think the reality is you will meet some lovely, knowledgable judges and some who would have been better staying at home.
 
She definitely has the ill show you attitude and believe me that will come out tomorrow! It's ok I wasn't taking your comments as criticism sunshine, it's just some where along the way it's become adults v children and that wasn't my intention lol.
 
TJP said:
I think judge experience counts a lot. I used to ride a horse who was tricky at best. He did however look pretty in a dressage arena even if he felt blooming awful. Judges (eventing) in the main seemed to love him. Jean Mitchell judged us one day and was the only judge who actually wrote on the sheet exactly what I felt underneath me. However she was really positive about her criticism, comments were written in a really nice way. Another day, another horse and an epic fail in the prep. Horse put stud through coronet band during warm up and I forgot the fly spray resulting in a test where the horse constantly chucked his head about and I took a fit of the giggles half way through. The SJ couldn't come quickly enough! The judge was lovely and commented at the bottom that it was well ridden in spite of the flies. His mark was pants lol. I think judges can be critical but nice at the same time & TBH those are the ones I have a lot more respect for. I scribed for one judge who had me write 'needs more downward stretch' on every test sheet at a small local event. Not the most helpful comment for kids on their ponies. Their sheets were
full of one liners with very few positive comments. I think the reality is you will meet some lovely, knowledgable judges and some who would have been better staying at home.
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Yes we also get the needs more downward stretch, in both tests,and only one of last nights judges other observations apart from the outline outline lol. Funnily enough he does a lovely downward stretch at our school but not at the dressage arena, so yes I can definitely see that.
 
I think there are ways and means of being critical. I've certainly had in the past very depressing test sheets with a run of 5's, the odd 6 and only negative comments - a particularly memorable one was on my gangly then-4.5 year old, complete with neck strap and green ribbon, and not one positive comment on the whole sheet, just 'unbalanced' or 'hollow' all the way down! It's actually the only really negative sheet that horse has ever had, and I was pretty disheartened by it, but then that judge does have a reputation for not sugar coating anything!!
I just wanted to pick up on a point made earlier re scoring though - I aim for 8's. someone said, you will very rarely achieve an 8 - well, why?! I am happy with a 7, frankly disappointed with 6 or below, and aim for as many 8's down the sheet as I can - when he scores consistently 7/8s I consider him ready to move up a level.
As PS says, i want to be comfortably practicing novice tests at home and schooling elementary work before I move him up competitively. I must admit with my older horse he's stagnated somewhat at Novice but confirmationally he isn't a dressage horse and whilst he's capable of the 'moves' for elementary he's only competitive at novice so I'm happy that for us that is probably the limit - I've accepted that and hence he has a sharer who does low level fun stuff and I can aim to be more competitive on mg other horse who has a more natural ability to do higher level work.
Anyway that's digressed a lot, just wanted to query the idea that 8 is unachievable - and echo whoever said that actually you should always be looking at how to move your marks up as a whole, not thinking what is appropriate at that level or what the judge might look for in particular that day.
 
Something which can be a useful exercise to develop your daughter's self awareness, is to ask her to 'self-score' in a lesson. So trainer asks for say a 20m circle, and then asks rider what mark she'd have given herself for it and why. Trainer says what she'd have given and why, and how to improve to the next mark up. Rider does the movement again, maybe a few times, until they can see how to produce a better mark. It's a useful way of explaining what judges are looking for and how to get there, so the rider understands why they get the marks they do, without feeling demoralised by it. Being demoralised comes from not understanding how to improve I often find.....
 
ecrozier said:
I think there are ways and means of being critical. I've certainly had in the past very depressing test sheets with a run of 5's, the odd 6 and only negative comments - a particularly memorable one was on my gangly then-4.5 year old, complete with neck strap and green ribbon, and not one positive comment on the whole sheet, just 'unbalanced' or 'hollow' all the way down! It's actually the only really negative sheet that horse has ever had, and I was pretty disheartened by it, but then that judge does have a reputation for not sugar coating anything!!
I just wanted to pick up on a point made earlier re scoring though - I aim for 8's. someone said, you will very rarely achieve an 8 - well, why?! I am happy with a 7, frankly disappointed with 6 or below, and aim for as many 8's down the sheet as I can - when he scores consistently 7/8s I consider him ready to move up a level.
As PS says, i want to be comfortably practicing novice tests at home and schooling elementary work before I move him up competitively. I must admit with my older horse he's stagnated somewhat at Novice but confirmationally he isn't a dressage horse and whilst he's capable of the 'moves' for elementary he's only competitive at novice so I'm happy that for us that is probably the limit - I've accepted that and hence he has a sharer who does low level fun stuff and I can aim to be more competitive on mg other horse who has a more natural ability to do higher level work.
Anyway that's digressed a lot, just wanted to query the idea that 8 is unachievable - and echo whoever said that actually you should always be looking at how to move your marks up as a whole, not thinking what is appropriate at that level or what the judge might look for in particular that day.
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You see I wouldn't see a run of 5's with 'unbalanced/hollow' as being explicitly negative.
A judge is technically supposed to give a comment whenever they award a 6 or below, and in that comment they need to be clear why that mark was not higher.

So it is perfectly understandable that a green/wobbly 4yo is unbalanced and hollow. But you can't blame the judge for pointing that out! Judges have to be careful not to comment to the effect of 'good' etc as then that mismatches with a 6 or lower. Some judges will try harder than others with their comment phrasing, for example 'better strike off but hollow A to B' etc

In the free text at the end though, you would hope that most human-being judges would think about what they write and try and make it encouraging!
 
The reason I posted on here was because I knew you more knowledgeable people would help me understand dressage a bit better and the way it's marked and it has. Ive looked back at the sheet again and although I still feel he only made critical comments there are three sevens on there but unfortunately no comments next to them. I would've still liked the negative comments to have been more constructive so she could come away with a better idea on how to work on this but you can't please all the people all the time!

I now realize that just going in and doing a clean and tidy little test isn't always going to be enough and as Crabbymare put it she rode the test rather than the pony. So feel more positive now, hopefully daughter will brush it off (I'm sure she will) and come out fighting next time!
 
It doesn't matter frankly whether you are 2 years old or 200 years old its the LEVEL that you are competi ng at.Intro isn't Grand Prix.Its basically there for novices who are just dipping their toe in the water or just want a fun day out with their horse/pony.At this level the judge should err on the side of leniency and make fair but kind comments.For some this is all they will ever want.Others may really catch the bug and will be prepared to train harder and climb the ladder.Dressage desperately needs an equivalent of clear round show jumping.Thats what intro was meant to be I think but its turning serious which is silly.
 
eahotson said:
It doesn't matter frankly whether you are 2 years old or 200 years old its the LEVEL that you are competi ng at.Intro isn't Grand Prix.Its basically there for novices who are just dipping their toe in the water or just want a fun day out with their horse/pony.At this level the judge should err on the side of leniency and make fair but kind comments.For some this is all they will ever want.Others may really catch the bug and will be prepared to train harder and climb the ladder.Dressage desperately needs an equivalent of clear round show jumping.Thats what intro was meant to be I think but its turning serious which is silly.
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intro is the stepping stone to prelim, which is the stepping stone to novice, etc.

basic walk and trot work should be taken AS seriously as any other level.
 
I do not judge but I have written up affiliated G.Prix with list 1 judges, I have also had lessons with list 1 judges so I seen a fair amount of judges and written, ' a little hollow' and 'halt not square' more times than is good for me at the lower levels, and what ever they say about the scales of training a 6 seems the default mark.
Its a lot easier to say what is wrong that what you have got right, I find it very dispiriting when a rider has done a movement well and the get a blank, just 'nice----' would be nice, especially at the lower levels.
Both my daughters did PC and affiliated dressage but when we got to the point that we needed a 'dressage pony', we quit while we still had a sense of humour. There is a certain sort of competiveness in dressage and showing that I find a bit unhealthy as the marking system is subjective and I have know people try to effect the judges marks by basically 'sucking up', I do not know if it worked but the fact that the mother told me what she was doing was astounding.
I think for most ponies its like a duck trying to look like swan, there are some exceptions but as most of our ponies are based on out native breeds they are not built naturally for the outline desired and temperament wise there is nothing more boring and likely to insite a pony to napping and general naughtiness then being drilled for hours when in the pony brain the circle they just trotted the last 10 times looked OK to them.
I think thread has brought out the difference between the people who think,'we'll have a go at this this' and the people that think, 'this is what we do', I think for children and ponies they should do what keeps the pony sweet and the child smiling
 
SpottedCat said:
Something which can be a useful exercise to develop your daughter's self awareness, is to ask her to 'self-score' in a lesson. So trainer asks for say a 20m circle, and then asks rider what mark she'd have given herself for it and why. Trainer says what she'd have given and why, and how to improve to the next mark up. Rider does the movement again, maybe a few times, until they can see how to produce a better mark. It's a useful way of explaining what judges are looking for and how to get there, so the rider understands why they get the marks they do, without feeling demoralised by it. Being demoralised comes from not understanding how to improve I often find.....
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This is so true.
 
Just had to log in and comment here. Great thread. I too thought that intro and prelim were not going to look for 'outline' and that a relaxed way of going was more the aim but here I stand corrected!

Having said that I feel quite fortunate that my daughter and I regard most dressage tests a bit like a Badminton round - we think we have done brilliantly if we finish! So we get Huge enjoyment even without huge scores.

Perhaps OP you can look at this experience as a great bit of training for your daughter - she has the opportunity to work on the weaker areas with her instructor and I think good sportsmanship is at least as important in horsemanship as winning (sorry not saying you are not sporting but you only truly learn this through setbacks!) mind you I would say that as my highest ever dressage mark is 58%. :D

Look forward to following your progress and probably hearing this story related at the 2020 Olympics :-)
 
help your daughter to use this as motivation - carry on and do better. The competition is one thing but self improvement is so much more satisfying.
It does suck to see lots of critical remarks especially if it doesn't feel appropriate or balanced but learning to deal with it is all part of developing. I suppose this applies to dressage and real life.
Good luck with it all and keep at it :-)
 
tobiano said:
Just had to log in and comment here. Great thread. I too thought that intro and prelim were not going to look for 'outline' and that a relaxed way of going was more the aim but here I stand corrected!

Having said that I feel quite fortunate that my daughter and I regard most dressage tests a bit like a Badminton round - we think we have done brilliantly if we finish! So we get Huge enjoyment even without huge scores.

Perhaps OP you can look at this experience as a great bit of training for your daughter - she has the opportunity to work on the weaker areas with her instructor and I think good sportsmanship is at least as important in horsemanship as winning (sorry not saying you are not sporting but you only truly learn this through setbacks!) mind you I would say that as my highest ever dressage mark is 58%. :D

Look forward to following your progress and probably hearing this story related at the 2020 Olympics :-)
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But sometimes you can get so terrified of making a mistake or not being PERFECT that you loose all effectivness at any level.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
intro is the stepping stone to prelim, which is the stepping stone to novice, etc.

basic walk and trot work should be taken AS seriously as any other level.
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Lets forget the fun aspect of riding then shall we? Not everyone that does clear round jumping aspires to being John Whitaker.Sometimes they just do it for FUN.At very novice levels people need confidence and fun or they stop competing at all at any level.In fact there are an amazing number of peiople like this.
 
eahotson said:
Lets forget the fun aspect of riding then shall we? Not everyone that does clear round jumping aspires to being John Whitaker.Sometimes they just do it for FUN.At very novice levels people need confidence and fun or they stop competing at all at any level.In fact there are an amazing number of peiople like this.
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If they really are just doing it for fun (and why not?), then they really shouldn't complain if their fun doesn't actually equal the requirements of the discipline.
 
OP many judges will not put a comment for a 7 or above. All judges are different and the more you do you and daughter will discover this. Always take the crit positively as things to work on :)
 
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