Discipline of horses.

[wrighty]

I have been in a discussion about horses that kick with another poster, I was amazed to read some of their comments.

What do you think? Is it aceptable to "whip", "beat" or "discipline her, swiftly and severely"?



"If she lifts a leg at another horse, or worse still, a hound, you will be expected by the rest of the field to discipline her, swiftly and severely"

"one good hiding will prevent it from developing into a habit in the hunting field"

"It may sound a bit harsh, but half a dozen whip welts will soon go down"

"The other rider was furious and said "don't pat it, beat it!"."

"I'm certainly not going to say whipping doesn't hurt the horse - it does and under these circumstances it's supposed to and I'll bloomin' well make sure that it does - but it does no long term physical harm and should make the horse think twice before doing it again."

 

[bellaM]

When it comes to disciplining a horse I think you need to be logical. A horse doesn't neccessarily see what it is doing as wrong, they do not think like us. I think that if a horse does something that discipline should be quick, uncomfortable and consistant with the behaviour so that the horse can relate what it is doing to something uncomfortable. I also think people should be careful that they are not doing something out of aggression, loss of temper or trying to be a 'hero'. People should also be careful that they are not encouraging bad behaviour in the first place. For example letting a horse eat grass when you ride.

 

[the watcher]

As you are effectively asking us to take sides on a debate without revealing your comments, and only a selection of the other person's comments, I couldn't possibly reach any conclusion without seeing the whole discussion.

I do think horse have to have manners, and have little time for rude ones (accepting though that they have to grow and learn) and wouldn't hesitate to discipline them, that may not necessarily be physical though. i accept there are times when a smack may be appropriate and necessary.

But that doesn't really answer your rather biased question, does it?

 

[Shilasdair]

I agree with the_winter...as you appear to be trying to get us all to take sides in an argument without giving a real picture of the discussion to date.
I do believe in disciplining horses; but the methods I use depend on the circumstances, and range from a verbal reprimand, to a good firm smack with a whip.
Horses are large, strong, powerful animals...but as they don't speak English...we have to communicate in a language they understand...in a herd the lead mare would 'discipline' the others by biting, kicking, barging etc....if threats were ineffective. Unfortunately my horses are too muddy to bite...and I'm not balanced enough to kick them...or fat enough to barge them successfully (maybe after Christmas

) so I use a whip if necessary.
S

 

[TGM]

I think it relates to this thread:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2526689/an/0/page/0#2526689

 

[the watcher]

Read it now, TBH I think some of those quotes were taken slightly out of context...

...and i would love to see the fluffy alternative in the hunting field

 

[elaineh]

Firstly, I haven't read all the preivous post, so here's just a few thoughts briefly

I think the danger here is to assume your horse is wrong. In fact, horses are always right. Thats a big concept to to get your head properly around. Ince you do though, everything become a lot more straightforward and training becomes a lot simpler too.

They only react to their environment / training / pain / using behaviour that is hard wired into a horse, and is in fact what makes a horse a horse.

if you dont like a certain behaviour, first figure out why your hrose is doing it then come up with a plan to change his behaviour.


- train him / desensitise him to dogs
- take away anything which is causing pain
- dont put him in a situation where you know something like this is likely to happen
- figure out if you've actually trained your hrose to do whatever it is by mistake (horses rushing our of hroses boxes are often trained to do this by their handler, who tries to pull on rope to keep horses in, whcih only results in horses rushes out faster)
- it could be you thats wrong, not your horse, but thats a difficult thing to admit to yourself.

 

[pnap]

I think you're spot on Shilas-dair. You have to make the horse understand that you are the "alpha" being around them and by disciplining in a way that reflects what would happen in the herd i.e. with an uncomfortable experience for unacceptable behaviour then that's probably best. There is no way a wee slap from a 5'3" woman ain't really going to make a dent in a 17hh+ beast so if a sharp smack with a stick is necessary then I don't think you should feel too bad about doing it. Again though you shouldn't reprimand them out of temper etc (all too often I've seen some individuals at the yard smacking their horse for completely natural behaviour) cause that's just not on.

 

[bellaM]

I should think that some good discipline could be given if that electric tape was wired up to a pylon ;-)

 

[the watcher]

elaineh, I do agree with most of that. The original post related to how to identify a potentially kicking horse in the hunting field, and the very good advice given was that if the horse is known to kick it either shouldn't go or should be right at the back (ie not boxed in)

It then progressed to the expectation that if a horse does kick, that it should be told immediately that this behaviour is not acceptable - which is where the selected quotes came from

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly, I haven't read all the preivous post, so here's just a few thoughts briefly

I think the danger here is to assume your horse is wrong. In fact, horses are always right. Thats a big concept to to get your head properly around. Ince you do though, everything become a lot more straightforward and training becomes a lot simpler too.

They only react to their environment / training / pain / using behaviour that is hard wired into a horse, and is in fact what makes a horse a horse.

if you dont like a certain behaviour, first figure out why your hrose is doing it then come up with a plan to change his behaviour.


- train him / desensitise him to dogs
- take away anything which is causing pain
- dont put him in a situation where you know something like this is likely to happen
- figure out if you've actually trained your hrose to do whatever it is by mistake (horses rushing our of hroses boxes are often trained to do this by their handler, who tries to pull on rope to keep horses in, whcih only results in horses rushes out faster)
- it could be you thats wrong, not your horse, but thats a difficult thing to admit to yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Horses are not 'right' or 'wrong'...but there is behaviour that is safe and acceptable by humans in a domesticated context, and behaviour that isn't...you have to train the horse to do the behaviours you want.
2. Horses, like people and other animals, have some 'hard-wired' instincts but also use a lot of 'learned behaviour' so your idea that every small behaviour is instinctive is incorrect.
3. You cannot use avoidance techniques with horses - you must deal with each individual horse's issues and work through them...maybe this explains why so many Parelli and other NH people seem (to me) to avoid riding.
4. It could be NH/Parelli techniques that are wrong, but that's would be a difficult thing to admit when you've spent good money on the DVD's and whips, sorry, 'carrot-sticks'.
S

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're spot on Shilas-dair. You have to make the horse understand that you are the "alpha" being around them and by disciplining in a way that reflects what would happen in the herd i.e. with an uncomfortable experience for unacceptable behaviour then that's probably best. There is no way a wee slap from a 5'3" woman ain't really going to make a dent in a 17hh+ beast so if a sharp smack with a stick is necessary then I don't think you should feel too bad about doing it. Again though you shouldn't reprimand them out of temper etc (all too often I've seen some individuals at the yard smacking their horse for completely natural behaviour) cause that's just not on.

[/ QUOTE ]

To put it in context, I have three, including a couple of largish youngsters aged 2 and 3 at the moment. The 2yo I think I've smacked with a whip maybe once....although I did smack her bottom with my hand for kicking me in the leg when she was little

. The 3yo is quite dominant and strong...and tends to over-react to other horses...I've probably smacked her about 3 or 4 times with a whip...all for disrespecting my space and barging into me..... My old horse, is now rising 19yo and I can't even remember the last time I smacked her...although she does get told off verbally when she forgets her manners.
So not much of a horsebeater really, but I can't let them endanger me or other people.. another point being I use a whip with a leather flap on the bottom...and I've yet to mark a horse with whip, spurs or anything else

S

 

[pottamus]

At the end of the day I think Rosiep hit the nail on the head. You have to be so quick to correct a horse so they know what was the negative behaviour they should not have done...otherwise the moment is lost and you may as well forget it and move on.
My horse is a kicker and always has been. If a horse comes too close up his bum he will kick...don't know why, don't like it but that is how it is. I have tried everything in my time to stop him from being like that from making him work afterwards to saying a firm No! and tapping him down the shoulder to a fair crack of the whip...he still is susceptable to doing it. So I accept that and wear a huge long red ribbon in his tail, manage him well when around other horses, keep him out of the way and take sensible measures to avoid accidents. I ride on my own anyway so it is only at pleasure rides that I have to have my wits about me.
Yes, some people think he needs a good hiding for being like it and some think he should be 'trained' out of it but how many horses will he have to kick and how much stress will I have to put him and me under to try and prove that point right or wrong? To me it is not worth it for him or me. He is what he is and I am sensible enough to manage it, after all he has not had a go at anything for 2 years because I ensure he is not put in that situation in the first place. And I do endurance rides ever weekend throughout the summer too.
So every horse is different and what works for one does not for another. Some horses can be punished and they don't do it again, others would have you off for it. It is all about balance.

 

[muffinino]

I think it depends on the circumstances. I have changed Titan's noseband to a grackle to hunt in for extra control. He was not happy about it the first time I took him out and was doing mini rears and twirling around in temper because he could not open his mouth, cross his jaw and tank off like before! The second time I went out he stood at the meet as usual but when the hounds moved off (they were to his right) he swung his bum around and started walking backwards, which was away from the grackle and the control. Unfortunately this meant he nearly trod on the hounds and, as he was not listening to my leg aids, I gave him three sharp smacks to make him move forward. He behaved very well for the rest of the hunt and has done so since. Did I do wrong? I don't think so.

I was hunting with KrashnBurn on Saturday. She was on a friend's horse as hers is lame. this horse had not been hunting and is a bit of a cheeky, naughty boy! He would not stand and kept twirling, walking backwards and again doing mini rears. At one point he started backing up into Titan (probably because he was the horse he knew there) and would not stop when KnB smacked him, so I smacked him twice on the bum to get him moving forwards. I would do so again if I had to.

The circumstances above are not kicking incidents but are examples of disciplining with a whip. My boy is not a kicker but if he did kick out I would give him a smack (if I was quick enough) and growl at him. If someone else's horse viciously kicked at mine I would consider smacking it to make it move away and would expect them to discipline it.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way a wee slap from a 5'3" woman ain't really going to make a dent in a 17hh+ beast

[/ QUOTE ]
Dont' agree with that at all. Doesn't matter really what size the rider is compared to the size of the horse - use a whip on anything and it'll feel it.

 

[Breezesbenefactor]

I use a whip often on my own leg however, my horse is lazy & stubborn and will have a hissy fit sometimes. It can take a while to get her to listen and so the whip is used however not to what I'd call excessive it is applied in a logical and appropriate manner and not through rage & anger.

 

[tkmaxx]

I'm shocked at the number of people who think no!
You have a horse, in public, within a group of people and it starts behaving badly.
You're going to just sit there and let it risk hurting someone?
Do I have a misplaced sense of proportion because I own a clydesdale?
Seriously, get some priorities, if the horse is a danger, I don't care if it's beaten to death. I'd rather have to witness or do that than know my horse hurt or killed someone.
I did pick "depends on the horse" though. I do know some horses get worse if you smack them.
As far as I'm concerned, the safety of those around me is paramount and I'd rather my horse bore welts than someone else's had a broken leg!

 

[the watcher]

QR
seems like wrighty lit the touchpaper and ran away - maybe this isn't going quite as anticipated

 

[Agent XXX999]

Prepares to be shot down in flames.

I have clumped my horse. I have also given him a welt mark - the ONE AND ONLY time he reared bolt upright with me.

I would also give him a right smack if he kicked out.

I have also smacked my horse on the nose when he has bitten me THE ONE AND ONLY TIME he has done it.

I am a small woman. He is an 18hh horse.

I am a believer that to

"discipline her, swiftly and severely"

Is effective, and WORKS.

I have had comments on my horses manners, both ridden and on the ground, but also his kind temperament.

A welt mark will go down indeed. I would rather have given my horse a stripe on his bottom than him rear again and cause injury to myself.

Horses dont think like humans. My horse still loves me when he has been told off. Its just sometimes he needs it, I instantly put him into check and then the behaviour stops.

 

[moocow]

I agree with the post above about horses being herd animals and they would get severely disciplined in a herd by the dominant mare but I think the main reason people object to the use of a whip is when they witness it used in anger and/to excess. I think there is a difference between disciplining and beating. My mare is a dominant mare, she is 17hh and only 4. She has the kindest nature but if allowed, she will barge u, swing her bum etc. The point is that she isn't allowed. IF she tries to, a sharp shout is enough to let her know she is wrong. It is, as posted above, essential that your horse sees you as the alpha. They are huge powerful animals and can do a lot of damage.

I don't however, think there is any circumstances where a horse should be whipped on the head/face. A smack with a hand on the nose for biting I can understand and it must be done immediately but never anything else.

 

[Shilasdair]

You didn't have to smack him!
You could have sold him on 'Project Horse' to a Parelli enthusiast to play games with, and not ride...until they feel he needs a more experienced NH person to deal with the issues he had from your cruel BHS type ownership, and resell him...
S

 

[Agent XXX999]

[ QUOTE ]
You didn't have to smack him!
You could have sold him on 'Project Horse' to a Parelli enthusiast to play games with, and not ride...until they feel he needs a more experienced NH person to deal with the issues he had from your cruel BHS type ownership, and resell him...
S

[/ QUOTE ]


Wonderful idea... I will cancel my farrier and go barefoot whilst I am at it.

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You didn't have to smack him!
You could have sold him on 'Project Horse' to a Parelli enthusiast to play games with, and not ride...until they feel he needs a more experienced NH person to deal with the issues he had from your cruel BHS type ownership, and resell him...
S

[/ QUOTE ]


Wonderful idea... I will cancel my farrier and go barefoot whilst I am at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG!

As if it's not bad enough that you beat your horse rather than take him home and reason with him, you nail metal shoes to his feet too?!

Don't you understand that in nature, horses wouldn't wear shoes or get beaten (ok they may break legs and die long, protracted painful deaths or be lunch to a lion, but that's NATURAL). If you take his shoes off, you should find that in just three or four years, he'll grow enough horn for you to work him for a few months.

I can't believe this forum is full of so-called horselovers who advocate such outdated things as farriery
S

PS I think I'm getting rather good at this...don't you?

 

[Agent XXX999]

You need to watch out. People mights start calling you giles!

 

[Shilasdair]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to watch out. People mights start calling you giles!

[/ QUOTE ]

But I can spell.
S

 

[wizzi901]

horses are large creatures, my opinion on this (take it or leave it I dont much care!) is:-

When in the field, they can do what they like, if they choose to kick in their natural environment with their friends its hard cheese (all horses are mine anyway or on loan and generally get on) however, the field is their free time.

When I am mounted/or holding a horse that is tacked up etc, if it kicks (and old one can occasionally) then I expect it to be reprimanded. If it is with me or being ridden by me, it should know it is in a position of trust, as my oldie does (just takes the pee sometimes).

Horses need manners and so many people keep wrapping them up in cotton wool on here! It makes for insecure horses ultimately, more problems.

In the wild if behaviour was wrong a horse would be told by the herd leader with a kick or a bite, essentially whilst i wouldnt kick a horse unless it kicked me out of spite, or bite one unless it bit me! - this is what happens in the wild, its the only thing you can expect a horse to understand.

I dont however agree with "whipping" necessarily as its not a natural reprimand for a horse.

Now shoot me!

 

[pnap]

That's what I meant - I was saying that in some cases a sharp smack with a whip is way more affective than consistent niggling with human arms or legs! Well mine's certainly pays no aatention to a hand slap but knows he's done wrong with one sharp smack of a stick. TBH I tend to use the noise of the whip more than actually hitting him with it - I often smack my lower leg with it to make him move forward off the leg rather than tapping him and it works fine (till he gets wise to it

 

[JessPickle]

have to agree a keen example of this is a horse was being used in a lesson at the RS she kept doing silly little bucks and the rider just ignored it! I got on her, she bucked I hit her one and she didnt do anything for the rest of the lesson!

If pickle (which he is unlikely too) put anyone else in danger by kicking etc he would get a smack. I like horses with manners for example when I open pickles stable door he steps back to let me in now that is how it should be!

 

[Theresa_F]

I rarely hit my horses, but on occasion when "nice" doesn't work then yes a rope will come out and a last resort is a whip. I have large horses and must respect my space and move when told. I do not expect them to think about kicking or biting anyone. I have had comments on how well mannered my big hairies are. They are not afraid of me but do have respect.

My TB decided once when hunting to back up fast - knocking everything flying. Legs didn't work, but one hard crack up the backside stopped her dead. She tried it a second time and this time I immediately gave her what was the hardest smack she had ever had from me. That was the last time she did it.

She was dangerous to herself and others - something not acceptable if you want to take a horse out in public.

I put "depends on the horse" - for some a growl is enough, for others they do need more of a deterrent.

 

[MagicMelon]

Yet again, some of you are being totally ignorant. I have 2 horses who are shod and 2 ponies who have gone barefoot this year. I have to say that going barefoot has changed them for the better. By choice Id love to have the other 2 barefoot but unfortunately its not practical to due to lack of grip competing. Quit slagging off barefoot - you have absolutely no idea about it! I cant believe you all tear the crap out of trying to keep the horse as natural as possible. And by the way, the reason I went barefoot on these 2 in the first place was due to BAD farriery.

There is a huge difference between one tap and beating up a horse. Those who "wallop" their horses or beat them up deserve the same done to them IMO. As someone said, horses do NOT know what is right or wrong, however neither do children to begin with - is it ok to beat the crap out of them?! IMO it just shows a total lack of respect and understanding of the horse.

One of my horses went through a phase as a youngster of trying to kick other horses at shows. I made sure he knew it was wrong however I also didnt beat the hell out of him for it because he wasn't doing it out of nastiness, he simply felt threatened when others invaded his space which is understandable, why beat up a horse when he's scared already?! He soon got used to it and the kicking attempts stopped completely. Most horses do not do things to try and piss us off, maybe some of you should sit back and think about WHY the horse bucks / kicks etc. before laying into it.