Do all laminitics have metabolic dysfunction?

[rockysmum]

I have absolutely no experience of lami, non of mine in 45 years of ownership have ever had it, although I have owned "high risk" breeds.

I have a genuine question having observed other people managing it for years.

Why is high risk food cut completely from their diet. I have seen people who refuse to even give their horses a carrot, soak hay until there is nothing left etc etc.

Is this not asking for trouble when a slight change in the grass happens, even on starvation paddocks. These horses have absolutely no tolerance to sugar etc and suddenly its in their diet. Is this not worse than low quantities being present all the time. Any additions could be removed when the spring grass appears.

I'm just thinking of the feeding rules on changing diet slowly.

Not after an argument, its a genuine question.

 

[TwoStroke]

I have absolutely no experience of lami, non of mine in 45 years of ownership have ever had it, although I have owned "high risk" breeds.

I have a genuine question having observed other people managing it for years.

Why is high risk food cut completely from their diet. I have seen people who refuse to even give their horses a carrot, soak hay until there is nothing left etc etc.

Is this not asking for trouble when a slight change in the grass happens, even on starvation paddocks. These horses have absolutely no tolerance to sugar etc and suddenly its in their diet. Is this not worse than low quantities being present all the time. Any additions could be removed when the spring grass appears.

I'm just thinking of the feeding rules on changing diet slowly.

Not after an argument, its a genuine question.

This is an interesting point. Without doubt there do seem to be some extremely grass sensitive horses around which just can't cope with the green stuff. The reaction when grass is reintroduced is often, I believe, far stronger than the symptoms which persisted before the grass sensitivity was discovered. So, should we try and keep sugar in the diet to desensitise? I guess that's a personal choice...

I've seen laminitis several times in horses/ponies that have recently moved yards, no other risk factors identified and reasonably young too. In two cases it was definatley down to stress which makes sense because stress results in increased circulating cortisol just the same as cushings disease. High levels of cortisol are directly toxic to the cells of the laminae.

I think I remember reading that severe stress causes humans to go directly into IR as a kind of defence mechanism... could be the same for horses?

 

[Pale Rider]

I honestly believe that metabolic disorders in horses is on the increase, and rapid at that.
Too much sugar and starch in the diet, encouraged by feed companies.
A bit like handing your child's nutritional needs to a fast food company.
Of course laminitis is connected to metabolic disorders, that's exactly what it is.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Tbh, and I don't wish to offend anyone, but I think people are desperate to believe that there is something wrong with their horse, rather than their management of their horse. It can be hard to realise that the blame lies solely on our own shoulders, for not feeding and managing the horse in accordance to its evolution.

I can see the temptation to believe that it's because of a defect with the horse itself, but imo this often isn't the case. And in the cases in which the blame can be laid on IR - it needs to be recognised that this is also a man made problem, caused by the horse owner's management.

That is really offensive and rude.....my appy is ir, got lami for the first time last jan. We were completely shocked. He was our main riding horse, ridden 6 days a week for at least an hour sometimes two or three. He did sj. Dressage, sponsored rides up to 20 miles and through it all he was on just grass and hay. The time he came down with it was during the snow when all the horses work load was cut back because of frozen feilds, icey roadrg and we cold only do a little bit of hacking.

He has always been on the chubby side even before we got him, they lady had had him from weaning, it was just the snowy grass and lower exersise that did it.
Nothing to do with us, my vet thinks he had always had it and that it had been managed with deit and exersize without us knowing and that the snow just tipped him over.

It's comments like that that make people ashamed to admit that their horses have lami.

Now ive said my peice i'll go away........

P.s wagtail that is an interesting thought, it could be for the ones where the ir came back normal that just for those few hours the sugar made them ir then when they were treated the body went back to normal.

 

[Pasha]

He has always been on the chubby side even before we got him, they lady had had him from weaning, it was just the snowy grass and lower exersise that did it.
Nothing to do with us, my vet thinks he had always had it and that it had been managed with deit and exersize without us knowing and that the snow just tipped him over.

It's comments like that that make people ashamed to admit that their horses have lami.

I think you read the post out of context which is very easily done on a forum, but by your own admission your horse had always been chubby, so the lack of excerise was the trigger, but he had IR, maybe like your vet said, since before you owned him!

There should be no blame - I hate the constant need in our society to find someone to blame! The simple fact is that your horse won't get Lami until it gets it, if that makes sense? If I had a pound for everytime someone said to me, "he's been much fatter than that and never got Lami before" I would be very rich indeed!

Of course, you do not know your horse has a metabolic dysfunction until something goes wrong, neither does your vet! It is hard for vets and farriers to be open and honest with owners as it is a very emotive subject, just like excess weight in humans is and to be honest, like my vet, many are only just now beginning to understand how overweight lesuire horses are and what a correct weight should look and feel like.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I think you read the post out of context which is very easily done on a forum, but by your own admission your horse had always been chubby, so the lack of excerise was the trigger, but he had IR, maybe like your vet said, since before you owned him!

There should be no blame - I hate the constant need in our society to find someone to blame! The simple fact is that your horse won't get Lami until it gets it, if that makes sense? If I had a pound for everytime someone said to me, "he's been much fatter than that and never got Lami before" I would be very rich indeed!

Of course, you do not know your horse has a metabolic dysfunction until something goes wrong, neither does your vet! It is hard for vets and farriers to be open and honest with owners as it is a very emotive subject, just like excess weight in humans is and to be honest, like my vet, many are only just now beginning to understand how overweight lesuire horses are and what a correct weight should look and feel like.

Maybe i did a alittle, it's been very hard when people have said to us over the last year or so he was bound to get it as he was so chubby and basically telling us we didnt look after him right.
They didnt even take into consideration how much he was worked and how much of a diet he was on even before he had lami. Yes the lower exer was the trigger but that really could not be helped as how many people can honestly say they kept there horses in full work with two foot of Snow, that doesnt include people with indoor schools. Vet also explained that the snow and frost holds the sugar so he was having an overdose with each mouthful.

I share your frustration with people not understanding the correct weight for horses, my are kept so you can feel and see ribs but not looking ribby if that makes sense. Sometimes all you can do is try and manage as much as posible but still that isnt enough. I also agree that you cant pick which one is going to get it, it's the circumstances at that one point in time.

 

[pottamus]

Well regardless of whether a horse has a metabolic problem, I have always been led to believe that toxins build up in the horses system to the point of overload, where the horses system cannot cope anymore and the laminitis occurs. So an overload/being tipped over the edge could easily be caused by an underlying metabolic problem, coupled with something else - too much sugar, stress, concusion etc. Or it could be that the horse has no underlying problem but a combination of things tip them over the edge.

My lad was always fine on his routine of being out in the day on his bare paddock and in at night and then for some stupid reason (mainly because he was struggling with dust/COPD) I turned him out full time on his bare paddock. I also went on hols for 10 days so he was not ridden and the cumalitive effect of all this meant laminitis. Hard lesson to learn and luckily I managed to nurse him back to full health with the help an an excellant vet and farrier. The vet felt it was poor farrier techniques that caused it...but I feel it was a combination of all those things that led to his system being overloaded.

The lesson I have learnt from this is that it does not take many little alterations to have a bad impact on him. He is now stabled at night throughout the entire year and has not been rugged since he recovered back in 2010. (He is a welsh so can cope!).

 

[Pale Rider]

One or two have mentioned horses being herded by others.

This phenomena has been seen in the wild, where horses suffering, or about to suffer a lamanitic attack have been herded along by other herd mates.

I believe this is an attempt to burn up sugars by herdmates to lessen the severity of a lamanitic attack or alleviate it all together.

 

[TwoStroke]

One or two have mentioned horses being herded by others.

This phenomena has been seen in the wild, where horses suffering, or about to suffer a lamanitic attack have been herded along by other herd mates.

I believe this is an attempt to burn up sugars by herdmates to lessen the severity of a lamanitic attack or alleviate it all together.

Christ, I hadn't heard that before. My two horses are doing this to my livery's horse. He recently teetered on the edge of a laminitic attack, but we thought he was out of the woods. Now I'm a bit worried again!

 

[Chicolatino]

One or two have mentioned horses being herded by others.

This phenomena has been seen in the wild, where horses suffering, or about to suffer a lamanitic attack have been herded along by other herd mates.

I believe this is an attempt to burn up sugars by herdmates to lessen the severity of a lamanitic attack or alleviate it all together.

thats really interesting as my boy had 2 rugs ripped to shreds just weeks before he went down with laminitis by a horse he had shared with for years with no probs. Makes you wonder.

My pony's is certainly metabolic related but im not sure i believe all cases are. not enough of an expert mind you .!!