Do bloodlines mean anything?!

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I've been pondering this for a while, but am posting now based on the fact that my 5yo's sire and dam-sire are both in H&H top twenty sires list... and she's utterly rubbish
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There are just an unimaginable number of horses out there that will never amount to the expectations of their bloodlines.

Is it greed that motivates people to spend such a huge amount of money on the top sires on the off-chance that the outcome will be worth it?

And how many of the horses that have been discarded as rubbish (like Boo!) aren't rubbish, but just horses that needed a different training approach?
 
They are most probably the most important thing. It is about narrowing the odds and using proven bloodlines helps do this but there are no guarentees.

Rubish horses are normally down to poor training and riding (no offence
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). I couldnt get the same performance out of an F1 car as good as Lewis Hamilton, yet it is the same car. edited to say I rarely ride horses I breed as I am a crap rider and could potentially ruin them at a young age although as the riders say if they have the natural ability they can correct faults it just takes longer and more expense.
 
I think when you consider breeding you always look at various factors.

Bloodlines - Can give the an indication of performance history, temperament and confirmation.

If you are breeding from a horse of unknown breeding then you can only base your decision on what is infront of you, temperament and confirmation wise.

Breeding is a gamble whatever
 
Bloodlines are VERY important to me. I wouldn't consider buying a horse WITHOUT the bloodlines that I want. However there are other horses with those bloodlines out there so I can be choosy about which ones I go for, so long as they are in this particular "bloodline box".

I am almost guaranteed of a horse typical of the bloodlines - but some may not be typical - I choose not to buy those ones.
 
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They are most probably the most important thing. It is about narrowing the odds and using proven bloodlines helps do this but there are no guarentees.

Rubish horses are normally down to poor training and riding (no offence
tongue.gif
). I couldnt get the same performance out of an F1 car as good as Lewis Hamilton, yet it is the same car. edited to say I rarely ride horses I breed as I am a crap rider and could potentially ruin them at a young age although as the riders say if they have the natural ability they can correct faults it just takes longer and more expense.

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Agree with every word of this -- and woudl like to add that the mare is probably 60% of the make up of the horse (both due to mitochondrial DNA and nurture issues) but its almost always the sire that gets blamed or lauded in simplified lists like the HH one. However good a stallion is he cannot do the impossible -- although many mare owners think he can -- and we all need to be aware of that ALL the time.
 
i think there are people out there that spend tons of money on a top stallion and when you actually look at the mares pedigree either its not that particully well bred or the dam line isnt strong i think also that where and who trains yr youngster is of upmost importance if he or she slips into the wrong hands at a young age it could be a bad thing!
 
Who me?



QR -
Just to make a further point - when I am talking about bloodlines - I mean that BOTH the dam line AND the sire line must have a particular horse in them. I don't want some fabulous sire line to be let down by a mediocre dam line.
 
Absolutely the dam line is as important and IMHO more important than the sire line. No point spending top dollar on a world class stallion if the mare is poor or even if the mare is just a poor fit for him. The stallion is not going to be a miracle worker no matter how hard he stamps his stock.

I think to riders, pedigree is less important. If they are looking at a horse under saddle, its the finished product they are interested in. However to breeders you have to try and get that bloodline mix right to raise your chances of breeding something that someone else is going to want to ride. So blooslines are crucial.
 
Bloodlines are very important.
But I rate performance above bloodlines- if I had a mare with insignificant breeding but who tried her heart out and reached the top of whatever sport, she'd be bred to the best I could afford despite her lack of names in her own pedigree!!
 
When I decided to breed from my lovely mare I took along time considering bloodlines as she was very well bred, I found a lovely stallion with excellent lines and managed to breed a stunning looking but complete defective and accident prone nit!! So you can be as careful as you like and you have no choice as to what you are landed with, although I do love him to pieces I wonder what other problems he's going to land me with.
 
Mistletoe it sounds as though your horse is the result of poor-quality or undistinguished/mediocre mares (her dam and her maternal grand-dam) being sent to top stallions in the hope that they will miraculously correct all the mares' faults and produce a superstar!

There is only so much that even a very good stallion can do, but some breeders have unrealistic expectations.

This does not mean that bloodlines are unimportant - quite the opposite, it shows that bloodlines are VERY important, especially on the dam's side!!!

Of course, one can breed a beautifully-bred superstar mare to an equally top-class stallion and still not get anything special - but by breeding the best to the best (and paying close attention to the bloodlines on both sides) you do at least significantly increase your chances of producing something good.

The reason bloodlines are important is that a stunning-looking inidividual and/or a great performer/competition-horse could just be a one-off, a fluke. Without the pedigree to 'back up' the individual's looks or abilities, you have no idea whether they will be passed on to his or her offspring.

The way I find helpful to look at it is: there is the phenotype - the individual horse in front of you, the horse you can see; but there is also the genotype - the horse you can't see, i.e. that individual's genetic make-up, the qualities that are in his/her genes, transmitted by his/her parents and ancestors, and which will in turn be passed on to his/her offspring...

As a breeder, you have to look at both phenotype and genotype, if you are going to stand any chance of breeding something decent. As a rider, you can just look at the phenotype, the qualities and abilities of the horse in front of you - unless you are buying a youngster, in which case you should study the pedigree to get an idea of how the horse will develop.
 
I think bloodlines are very important, especially the dam line. What irritates me the most is someone putting their un-registered, no breeding known, un-competed mare to the first stallion they see, or which ever stallion is a big name at the time just because the mare has gone lame. They dont research the stallion and have no idea about temperament or anything equally important and they end up with a complete nightmare of a foal who will probably be passed from home to home for the rest of his days
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..... sorry went a bit O/T there lol, but yes, IMO bloodlines are very important
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I've always been a rider rather than a breeder (Tills' little one will be the first one I've bred!) so I'm definitely more concerned with the performance and conformation rather than the pedigree...
But since struggling with Boo on a day-to-day basis I'm definitely open to the fact that doing your homework on the bloodlines is a good idea!

htobago - SnowyNight assures me that Boo's temprement issues are almost definitely attributable to the sire line
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I'll confess to breeding from my un-registered mare of unknown breeding...
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When I was looking for a stallion I didn't necessarily go for bloodlines, but went primarily for a great temperament and conformation that complimented Tills. My only interest in the bloodlines was that it might produce a youngester that was a little bit more saleable should something happen in the future (hopefully breeding for 'keeps', but you never know!)
 
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I'll confess to breeding from my un-registered mare of unknown breeding...
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When I was looking for a stallion I didn't necessarily go for bloodlines, but went primarily for a great temperament and conformation that complimented Tills. My only interest in the bloodlines was that it might produce a youngester that was a little bit more saleable should something happen in the future (hopefully breeding for 'keeps', but you never know!)

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At least you went for temperament and conformation. The person i was talking about in my previous post used the most ill tempered stallion i have ever known, just because he was black and pretty!!
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Bloodlines in my view are very important, but I am more a commercial studfarm and if I want to sell my stock then I need to have good bloodlines that are just as good as my European counterparts.

I spend A GREAT DEAL OF TIME finding mares with a superb dam line, to me this is far more important, where the maternal grand-dams have got proven breeding and performance lines.

On top of performance I also look for a great mind, with great temperament, good conformation and top movement. No point have a superbly well bred mare that has crap conformation and bad nature, especially as the majority of our clients are not Olympic riders.

We are trying to breed horses that can be ridden by any rider, but also with the capability (in the right hands) to go to high level sport.

However, I also understand that there are many many people who are like Mistletoe and have mares of unknown breeding, who have performed well in sport and who wish to put them to a top stallion, in the hope of the resulting foal being of better quality than the dam.

I do advocate to clients the importance of good mares but not everybody is in this position, and if the mare has got to high level sport then why should the owner not try and improve on the bloodlines...even if the mare herself has unknown breeding herself...
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We have one client who's original horse is a heinz variety of unknown breeding, however, they have since purchased two filly foals from us to compete with and eventually use as breeding mares at a later date. They know they have to wait for the foals to grow up, but they also accept that they could not afford these horses when they reach the ages of 3+ with the bloodlines they have.

This is how we started off many years ago, and each time we sold a horse we kept on trying to improve the quality and lines of the horses we then purchased thereafter, and in doing this we have learnt a great deal over the years...
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I don't think many horses, however they're bred, deserve to be labelled as 'rubbish'. Sorry, but when I hear something like that I instinctively think 'crap rider'. And when I hear that the horse has an an awkward temperament that reinforces my suspicions. Temperament tends to be shaped by the interaction with the rider / handler / lifestyle the horse has to put up with, and whilst some of the best horses do have an strong temperament, it can be a quirk of greatness and competitiveness.

Yes, I think there is a potential problem with competition horses who are not top class (but not rubbish) being surplus to requirements and ending up having to fit a niche that doesn't suit them, with a rider who cannot bring out the best in them. I've been there, done that myself- my old mare was an ex-racehorse, and way to good for me- though I hope I improved to be more nearly worthy of her.

As for using top stallions, I think it would be a bad idea breeding from a mare whom you felt didn't deserve a quality stallion as a mate. That doesn't mean he has to be expensive, but if he is and you can afford it, I don't see how using him can be thought of as "greed".
 
I think the world of my Boo, but it doesn't change the fact that she was bred to race and was discarded because she couldn't/wouldn't do the job...
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Of course I don't truely think any horse is 'rubbish' (otherwise I wouldn't have bought any of my horses! LOL!) the light hearted smiley at the end of the sentence was supposed to indicate that I wasn't deadly serious - maybe I should leave that to you in the future?

I LOVE my horses to be quirky and, to some extent, difficult, but Boo is unlike ANYTHING I have ever come across. She has been treated with nothing but kindness, patience and understanding in the 2 1/2 years she's been with me, all my other horses have flourished under my care but with Boo I'm just not able to make much headway. 'Trainable' just isn't one of her attributes.

As for the 'greed' comment - I was talking more about choosing the most expensive stallion with the best bloodlines purely to try and breed the most successful progeny, without taking the mare into account.
In racing it seems that anything is bred as long as it runs fast... regardless of temp or confo.
 
In what way is Boo unlike anything you've come across?

Of course, if you are as competent as you believe, and still the horse is difficult, she could be in pain in some way? If she was in training at two maybe she has some latent injury?

Why on earth would you wish your horse to be difficult? Quirky is OK - shows character- but difficult?

How's the horse you borrowed from your sister, by the bye? Is he now flourishing ?
 
??? Am I missing something?
I'm not saying I am unfallible, but I resent you telling me that it is my doing that Boo is the way she is? She is treated no differently to any other horse I've had... TLC, sympathetic schooling, varied routine etc etc etc. I tear my hair out frequently that I am missing something with her, she's been checked numerous times by the vet, saddler, dentist, farrier, chiropractor, all have drawn blanks.
I don't 'wish' my horses to be difficult, quite the opposite! I enjoy buying horses labelled as difficult, but in time they transform. Boo hasn't.
Rage has just developed a medical issue in the last few days, whcih may be a long term thing or may be a one off. Doesn't change the fact that he has changed from a yobby ex-racer/polo pony into a well schooled gent, does it?
 
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As for the 'greed' comment - I was talking more about choosing the most expensive stallion with the best bloodlines purely to try and breed the most successful progeny, without taking the mare into account.

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Totally get what you mean. I think it would be a waste of money to send a mare with no pedigree to a very expensive, well bred stallion because buyers now a days are looking more closly at the dam line (unless maybe the mare was a top performance horse) However if you are breeding for yourself then it's totally up to the individual what they like and what suits their mare.

If i had a nice mare with a great temperament and near perfect conformation who was successful in competitions but of unknown breeding then i would look for a nice dual purpose stallion with the same qualities. That way the offspring should be a nice allrounder ... in theory!
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I think you are taking this way too personally. However, if by chance the cap fits, try not to resent it- just consider it; there may be something in it. What exactly does she do that bothers you?

I'm glad Rage is OK- as you know I was interested in his medical problem as it mirrors something my old mare used to do. Can't say I've ever MET a yobby ex-racehorse or polo-pony though; they're generally schooled to the eye teeth albeit only for the discipline in which they participated. Still, glad your sister has done a good job with him, and hope you can pin-point the fainting problem.
 
LMAO! Try delving a little deeper and you'll find that she rarely rides him, and in fact hasn't seen him since sunday - despite him being stabled 50ish yards from the house.

I do frequently consider what the missing piece is with regard to Boo's demeanor - I drive myself mad with it, but hey!
 
Funnily enough our bloodlines ended up being reasonably well known ones..
We didn't start out choosing good ones but relied on the performance of the horses we owned to choose which mares to breed from, then bought a stallion who at that time was a near enough unknown bloodline in this country.
He had been purpose bought for a friend by a big dealer who had previously supplied her with a mare that produced a foal that sold to a top Sj for enough money to buy her her house.. So although I liked the look of that 3 year old stallion, I also took into account their knowledge was way better than mine re bloodlines.
We used him on lots of mares who also had sires in the top 20 list of stallions, but found his bloodline sometimes passed down horses that were quite sharp to ride. (we are good with sharp horses, so it wasn't ignorance causing that)
At this point I looked around for a nice stallion who had good conformation, a competition bloodline and above all a quiet trainable temperament.
The daughters of the first stallion were put to him, and now we seem to have found what we have been aiming for in the results. most are only young but the first one to compete has done well, winning a couple of ODE's etc.
Time will tell if they are as good as we hope.
Last month I chanced upon some breeding statistics of stallions and found every one of our bloodlines is in the top 20.. Yet had you asked me I would have said the bloodlines didn't really matter to me as much as the performance . So does it follow they are the same?
As for bloodlines it doesn't always follow they will produce superstars no matter how hard you choose the mating. in our early days we were offered silly money for the stallion by someone, and in our ignorance we believed we could go home, breed a few like him and sell them for megabucks.. It never happened, teaching us a valuable lesson that you can try your best but nature rules in the end..!
I think it lessens the odds getting the best stallion you can afford for your mare, but it also has to be a personal preference . If he and his stock don't make you want one for yourself, then look again. I don't think it 's fair to call it greed, more trying hard to get something better.
I agree with you re the last comment, a horse is only ever as good as it's trainer, and there are an awful lot of bad ones out there....
 
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But I rate performance above bloodlines- if I had a mare with insignificant breeding but who tried her heart out and reached the top of whatever sport, she'd be bred to the best I could afford despite her lack of names in her own pedigree!!

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couldn't agree more but when that mare has recorded breeding then you've hit the jackpot.

BUT there is something very important in all of this, which was brought to my attention this morning whilst speaking with the foal owner of our champion pony foal at this years North Of The Border Foal Show. She is out of an unregistered mare......... by ungraded stallion

The owner can verbally tell you everything you could ever want to know about her, what she has produced where her progeny have gone, what they have gone on to do......... these old breeders breed on the basis of personal unrecorded knowledge and experience. Everyone in the pony world thats in the know, looking for a JA jumping pony who to contact should contact. Many of his produce have gone onto being the winning ponies at every level and event imaginable in the UK.

Then speaking with another breeder that has the same experience and has also bred stock that have gone onto world class progeny he raises the issue that the modern world are obsessed with paperwork and is no longer capable of judging whats in front of them.......... especially when its people that have been breeding for 40 + years..... they get very annoyed that everyone is turning to EU bloodlines being the best and not looking closely at whats right here on their very own doorstep based on the modern breeders attitude that it can only be good because its papered and from the continent....... it all makes fascinating listening, needless to say that very breeder cleaned up at the foal show and sold his champion on the spot!
 
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