Do British ride more harshly than US?

[SibeliusMB]

The Americans also back their horses a lot earlier , common age is 2!

Not in the jumping disciplines it isn't. Typical is started at three, some are then turned away again and start serious work at four if needed. And are you forgetting that racehorses are broke younger, worldwide?



Please remember that saying general things like "Americans do X!" is a stereotype, often only applies to a small population, and can be frustrating to those of us it doesn't apply to. Very large country.

 

[LEC]

But we love stereotypes in the uk as it’s how the class system operates and how we pigeonhole everything.

 

[lannerch]

Not in the jumping disciplines it isn't. Typical is started at three, some are then turned away again and start serious work at four if needed. And are you forgetting that racehorses are broke younger, worldwide?



Please remember that saying general things like "Americans do X!" is a stereotype, often only applies to a small population, and can be frustrating to those of us it doesn't apply to. Very large country.

In everyday settings it is , on the american chat groups it’s the standard age to back a horse waiting until 3 is unusual, and 4 unheard off. I didn’t knock it in just pointing out another difference between the way we do things

 

[ycbm]

@SibeliusMB so but you are wrong. You have been conditioned to believe what you do having come from the US. It’s very very obvious that you are just trying to convince other members that it’s not American ignorants. It’s very clear from all videos that the level of riding that’s not western or top international competition is far behind other parts of the world.

Deliberately contentious poster alert, has now don't the same on several threads since joining recently.
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[ycbm]

And are you forgetting that racehorses are broke younger, worldwide?

The big difference being that in the UK racing is the only place that's done, and it's widely criticised, even by many within racing.
.

 

[SBJT]

But you, presumably brought up in the UK system, couldn't possibly have been conditioned to believe yours is The One True System and fail to see it has its shortcomings too?

At no time in any of my posts have I said the North American style is better. As LEC said, it's different. Different style for different horses for different purposes.

Looking forward to sharing your Low-Mid Level International Riding Standards of Greatness with all of US and Canada to tell everyone how woefully incompetent they are compared to the rest of the world.

Bravo!!

I don’t think I really need to add any more to this thread. I’ll probably just p*** off a bunch of ignorant people who like to stereotype. I guess it’s that old world antiquated colonial view rearing it’s ugly head again.

 

[shortstuff99]

Bravo!!

I don’t think I really need to add any more to this thread. I’ll probably just p*** off a bunch of ignorant people who like to stereotype. I guess it’s that old world antiquated colonial view rearing it’s ugly head again.

I wouldn't get too worked up, the poster she was replying to is a reincarnation of a troll who pops up all the time. I would imagine horse sports in the US are seen as colonial and high class as they are seen here though? For rich people?

 

[SBJT]

I wouldn't get too worked up, the poster she was replying to is a reincarnation of a troll who pops up all the time. I would imagine horse sports in the US are seen as colonial and high class as they are seen here though? For rich people?

Lol fair I saw ycbm’s post after and glad she called it out. Haven’t been keeping up with the changes here recently.

I think that horse ownership will be seen as elitist in any country, especially now with cost of living. But that’s a different thread.

 

[Lyle]

I actually enjoy watching the showhunter/equitation horses and riders. Would I watch hours of it? No, but it's a nice watch to remind oneself that jumping comes from the quality and even pace of the canter. I honestly think it would be beneficial for riders to spend their early jumping years learning to ride a quality canter, and maintain it, whilst holding lines. Instead we see a lot riders who's sole purpose of the day is simply to leave poles in cups, by any means necessary.
I'm Australian and there has been quite a lot of American influence in the teaching of jumping. I love watching the greats, like Joe Fargis. Listening to him teach is great too, so much of his teaching revolves around "be kind to the horse".

 

[CanteringCarrot]

In everyday settings it is , on the american chat groups it’s the standard age to back a horse waiting until 3 is unusual, and 4 unheard off. I didn’t knock it in just pointing out another difference between the way we do things

I don't know. I rode in the US for well over 10 years and backing a horse at 3 and 4 was very common. 2 was almost unheard of. I also haven't seen that on American chat groups either. Maybe it just depends on which circles you're in? I don't know.

I mean I know one western rider who sat on her 2 year old bareback for like 10 seconds, so I guess there's that example.

 

[RachelFerd]

@SibeliusMB - thank you for your well explained posts!

I'm personally a fan of what I see posted online about equitation and hunter classes. I see lovely soft, quiet, forward riding. When I watch equivalent classes in the UK I see aggressive, forceful, tense riding. I'd like to be more like the former, but having grown up in this system, i'm definitely not quite there!

I think there are 2 issues in the UK compared to the US;

1. Heavy focus on SJ (jumper) classes for kids, with very limited opportunities to be judged on equitation. Results matter more than style. Kids ride really horribly in jump offs to win. I can't even watch junior showjumping any more without wanting to cry.

2. The UK's hunting culture - people taught to jump are often taught with the overarching goal of staying on - I think this stems from our background in hunting and XC and fails to acknowledge that sitting back and riding defensively creates problems too.

 

[SibeliusMB]

My xc knowledge comes from watching hours of xc footage in America from clinics and events and from speaking to well renowned trainers who do stints in America. Lucinda would be the first to tell you that she spends significant time on position and being able to ride reactively as too much time spent being pretty, in an arena and in forward seat.

I watch riders like McLain and Lillie Keenan who all did serious amounts of Eq and then watch them in jumpers and they ride differently, much more forwards and pacy in jumpers and more upright. Tori Colvin is always interesting as again rides very differently from hunter to jumper.

Lucinda just 10 days ago was live on air complementing multiple US riders on their forward, soft style on XC at WEG. Canadians too. I don't refute that some Americans absolutely need a lot of work on XC, some of whom do come from the equitation background. SOME Americans have massive issues, absolutely. Some lower level hunter/jumper types do perch, they do run around on the forehand, they don't use their seat effectively, and those are the types that will need a lot of coaching on XC to be safe and effective. But please, please don't paint an entire population as incapable because of some. Any good, quality equitation rider would have minimal trouble transitioning to XC with the proper coaching and education, as I said earlier. That is also based on my firsthand experience.

The other thing the equitation does is educate riders on how to be adaptable. The purpose of equitation isn't to make great equitation riders. It's to produce riders that can be successful in both the hunter and jumper rings. Hence why Tori rides her jumpers and hunters so differently, but effectively. She was also highly successful in her junior equitation days.

In everyday settings it is , on the american chat groups it’s the standard age to back a horse waiting until 3 is unusual, and 4 unheard off. I didn’t knock it in just pointing out another difference between the way we do things

I don't know what "everyday settings" even means. In 30 years in the US horse industry, riding/working in five different states across the country, and six different disciplines (hunters, dressage, equitation, jumpers, hunting, and eventing), at no time was it considered common practice to start horses at two. Standard was three, turned away if needed, and the really slow maturing ones weren't started at all until four.

Now the western disciplines, racing, probably even some backyarders...another story and I have no experience there. Please don't sit there and pretend you know how things are done across the US because you spent some time in a chat room.

The big difference being that in the UK racing is the only place that's done, and it's widely criticised, even by many within racing.
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It's widely criticized in the US, as well.

I wouldn't get too worked up, the poster she was replying to is a reincarnation of a troll who pops up all the time. I would imagine horse sports in the US are seen as colonial and high class as they are seen here though? For rich people?

Generally yes, though the more backyard/recreational/happy hacker types probably not so much. The English disciplines are definitely seen as being for the wealthy.

I actually enjoy watching the showhunter/equitation horses and riders. Would I watch hours of it? No, but it's a nice watch to remind oneself that jumping comes from the quality and even pace of the canter. I honestly think it would be beneficial for riders to spend their early jumping years learning to ride a quality canter, and maintain it, whilst holding lines. Instead we see a lot riders who's sole purpose of the day is simply to leave poles in cups, by any means necessary.
I'm Australian and there has been quite a lot of American influence in the teaching of jumping. I love watching the greats, like Joe Fargis. Listening to him teach is great too, so much of his teaching revolves around "be kind to the horse".

I'm so glad you mentioned Joe! He is the epitome of "gentleman" and an incredible horseman. I was fortunate to ride with him for awhile and as much as possible I try to emulate his style (and usually fail, because I'm not him ). I can't watch hours of hunter rounds either, LOL.


Thank you @RachelFerd !! Great observations.

 

[lannerch]

[QUOTE="SibeliusMB, post: 15017605, member: 150233"



I don't know what "everyday settings" even means. In 30 years in the US horse industry, riding/working in five different states across the country, and six different disciplines (hunters, dressage, equitation, jumpers, hunting, and eventing), at no time was it considered common practice to start horses at two. Standard was three, turned away if needed, and the really slow maturing ones weren't started at all until four.

Now the western disciplines, racing, probably even some backyarders...another story and I have no experience there. Please don't sit there and pretend you know how things are done across the US because you spent some time in a chat room [/QUOTE]

charming ! I spend no time in a chat room actually, I also do not pretend and sorry you are wrong it is common practice in America to start at 2 for everyday riders .particularly out in ranches not particularly professionals , is what I mean by everyday settings . So yes mainly the western disciplines but that’s the majority of horses in a lot of states

I am guilty of stereotyping here but then we both are.

 

[SibeliusMB]

I also do not pretend and sorry you are wrong it is common practice in America to start at 2 for everyday riders .particularly out in ranches not particularly professionals , is what I mean by everyday settings . So yes mainly the western disciplines but that’s the majority of horses in a lot of states

No, it is common practice for a type of riding (of which there are many) in some areas of the United States (of which there are many). The correct statement I believe you're looking for is "Some people in some disciplines in North America start their horses at two as standard practice." And I don't know that we can say with certainty that 1) western horses definitely outnumber every other discipline combined in most states and 2) that every horse that wears western tack occasionally was broken at two. My issue with your posts is that you're using a lot of sweeping generalizations and basing them off internet chat comments, then taking the opinions of a few and applying them to the entire population, instead of basing on actual personal experience. We're discussing a country with a land mass 40 times larger than the UK and has 260,000,000 more people in it. As others in this thread have stated, too large for generalizations. Your "everyday settings" simply don't apply to as many people as you think it does.

If you're referring to my comments about UK riders at Royal Windsor, that's not stereotyping, that was actual observation of an event in real time. As I have also said in this thread, I've seen absolutely beautiful riding and worldclass horsemanship from UK riders. Both countries have good and bad.

 

[BunnyDog]

Forgive me for being late to the party.

I would sum up my reaction to this thread as follows...

EVERY country has great, not great, good, not good, bad, really bad, and abusive riders.

I can ride better than a good portion of other riders, but not as well as a larger portion of riders.

(Shockingly) My formative rides as a child were on rank ponies and horses from an inexpensive lesson barn. They did however start me with 18 months of walk and trot before I ever cantered. And it was a bit longer than that to jump. As a result I had a stable foundation of my position that's served me well my entire life on horses.

We can pick and poke on the differences, and with our current world views, social media, and just general opinions and frustrations, we tend to divide in conversations before we unite anymore. We all love horses. We all chose this life on some level. I could equally point out the strengths and weaknesses of both countries....but what do we get? What is gained? In theory, we're more adults than not and as such we don't need the playground fight of "I'm better than you!" We're different. We're going to always be different and that's not wrong. For sure as I have experienced here since joining, there were moments where things that are the norm here ran afoul of the ways there. Likewise things you all do, wouldn't be done the same here. Some to our benefit, some to our detraction.

My bottom line is this, I judge how people treat their animals, peers and fellow competitors. Me, I cheer for the people to beat me if they can and I celebrate their accomplishments and work. Why? IT'S a HARD life, sport and job. Not everyone succeeds at rates commiserate to the effort they have put in. So why not root for someone and make them feel better than not.

So if you want to judge me or anyone, go ahead. But be ready to have it done to you as well. You can choose to not be that person too and it might be a good thing to try.

Maybe try cheering for everyone and remembering that all the horse wants in life, is grass, food, and fair treatment. They don't give a damn about the rest.

Emily

 

[teapot]

Great posts @SibeliusMB

Re US event team riding - they looked great at the Worlds, the best they’ve done in a long while and it was commented on. In the same way, for whatever reason, at previous British 5*s, and other championships, they’ve always been the first nation to be criticised too by the pro commentators.

Will let the pros speak their minds on that, but I do wonder why they ride xc so long stirrup wise - noticeably so compared to some, is that partly because of the US disciplines or what?

 

[stangs]

As a general rule of thumb, there's no such thing as a country with consistently good horsemanship imo.

So yes mainly the western disciplines but that’s the majority of horses in a lot of states

Where have you gotten that stat from? AQHs being the most popular breed doesn’t mean all of them are being ridden western competitively.

It's true that the highly competitive side of western disciplines has an issue with backing young horses at 2, thanks to huge payouts offered by futurity classes. However, in the same way that not all people who event are sending their homebreds out over 1m+ fences at auction, your average amateur isn’t backing and riding their horse hard at 2. And, mind you, I’ve seen plenty of ads for 2yo trotters on DD that have already spent a season driving on the roads, or ads for horsequest for 3yos already jumping full courses.

 

[fiwen30]

I have no comment on the UK vs USA debate, of which there has been lots on this forum and which rarely ends amicably. Both sides of the pond have great bits and bad bits, and some bits bad to the extreme.

One thing I do think when I see the hunter jumper classes , an example of which I have linked below, is that they seem to be in a light seat but with a hell of a lot of weight forward, this is just one example but it seems to be quite common, they also don't sit up over a fence as much as we are taught to here. I can't help but think if the horse refused or tripped on landing then the rider would have no chance of saving themselves.
Not saying it's wrong, just an observation on the different styles. The commentary says that she has won over $2m which is an unimaginable amout of money here, but I think their class prize finds are 100x what we see here at similar levels.

That is so bizarre, she’s practically over it’s shoulder the entire time.

 

[BunnyDog]

That is so bizarre, she’s practically over it’s shoulder the entire time.

It's a style that the judges like in the Hunter Derby classes and some other Hunter classes.

There are many styles in different places that might not be replicated in other people's attempts at the same thing.

There are many Americans that don't love this style, but to place high up in the big dollar derbies.... gotta please the subjective judges.

Em

 

[SibeliusMB]

Great posts @SibeliusMB

Re US event team riding - they looked great at the Worlds, the best they’ve done in a long while and it was commented on. In the same way, for whatever reason, at previous British 5*s, and other championships, they’ve always been the first nation to be criticised too by the pro commentators.

Will let the pros speak their minds on that, but I do wonder why they ride xc so long stirrup wise - noticeably so compared to some, is that partly because of the US disciplines or what?

Thank you!! I'm definitely out of my depth RE: the US eventing program at the international level. Agreed, they looked great at WEG and what a solid team performance (and our individual rider was top ranked of all US members, good on her). But that's the first real medal the team has had in 20+ years. Haven't won Kentucky in years, international performances haven't been stellar...let's hope this is a new chapter for US eventing.

Not sure about the stirrup length, if anything I think the US style usually encourages shorter stirrups, not longer. Which riders are you talking about? I didn't think any of the US riders rode particularly long on XC. There are definitely some that ride shorter, but I guess to my eye they’re extremely short. If they were long, I genuinely have no idea why, other than personal preference.


The overly dramatic hunter duck-over-fences crap is just like the obese show horse problem in the UK: it's wrong, everyone knows its wrong, people do it anyway because that is what they think wins. The logic is the more they flail, the more the horse looks like a super athletic jumper. ? Dumb.

 

[LEC]

Great posts @SibeliusMB

Re US event team riding - they looked great at the Worlds, the best they’ve done in a long while and it was commented on. In the same way, for whatever reason, at previous British 5*s, and other championships, they’ve always been the first nation to be criticised too by the pro commentators.

Will let the pros speak their minds on that, but I do wonder why they ride xc so long stirrup wise - noticeably so compared to some, is that partly because of the US disciplines or what?

It’s the influence of Erik Duvander and Ian Stark. Both have been working with them. Ian to get them riding quicker and bolder.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

part deux....

Is your sister near Middleburg, VA by chance? Although most of VA is high hunt country, I lived/worked in Middleburg for four years and that's the hunting hub.

She lives in Conde near Warrenton (which has an exquisite albeit expensive tack shop - Horse Country) and previously Delaplane. So not that far from Middleburg.

It’s been really interesting for me as I’ve been able to see a lot of different aspects of horsey culture as I’ve been immersed in it when I’ve visited.

 

[lynz88]

There is a stark difference in riding. I was always taught not to touch the horse's mouth - grab mane if you have to, really push them via the leg from behind, and get off their back. Basically, get out of the way of the horse. Long, low and nose just slightly ahead of the vertical is ideal and I stand by that. A horse should be working properly long and low on a loose rein before bringing them "up". People here seem to always be surprised that my horse would easily work on the buckle and also neck reins but is how I taught him. When I shared a horse here, I felt well out of my depth - more hand than I was used to and much more concentrated on the horse working "up" than long and low and relaxed.

I will admit some of the hunters back home look bored. But doing low level hunters was great for getting younger horses (or green riders!!) out and working on getting correct striding, leads, using corners, balance, etc. We also have flat classes that aren't dressage (pleasure, road, show, hunter hack classes) that I loved doing with young horses to get them out into different environments. The equitation classes - even just at schooling level - could also be quite intricate.

 

[lynz88]

I'm Australian and there has been quite a lot of American influence in the teaching of jumping. I love watching the greats, like Joe Fargis. Listening to him teach is great too, so much of his teaching revolves around "be kind to the horse".

My vet is kiwi but lived in Australia for a while and her and I ride very similarly despite growing up on opposite sides of the world.

 

[lynz88]

I've commented on most of the threads linked above, but as a Yank here in the UK and having grown up in the US system, here are some of my observations and some facts. First off, what is called "hunter jumper" on this forum is not actually a discipline. The hunter/jumper label in North America actually refers to three separate disciplines (show hunters, equitation, and show jumpers) that all run at the same competitions. Usually these venues have multiple arenas and will be running these various divisions over the course of the competition. Most horses specialize in one (you have some unicorns that do two or even three divisions, often referred to as a "three ring horse"), while riders might ride in any or all over the course of the show. That's why North Americans refer to themselves as a "hunter rider," or an "Eq rider" or a "jumper rider," but would rarely say "I'm a hunter jumper."

I'm not commenting on the gaited horses/western horses/other extremes of horse stuff in the US because I have no experience with them and I don't understand any of it.


Depending what division and level of competition you're watching, I promise you the riders absolutely do know how to engage. And as for the 3' hunters and below...this might come as a shock, but most horses don't need to be in a high level of physical engagement or outline to step over 3'/.95 and below. It's crazy, but true.


I agree it is boring, that is why I don't show in the hunter divisions anymore. I love the skill that 8-10 perfect distances, perfect changes, and perfectly picture around the course requires, but after watching 10 rounds, I walk away out of sheer boredom. It might look boring, but that takes a LOT of education to pull off. But that's the hunter and maybe the equitation die-hards. The jumper folks (same as "show jumping" here in the UK) are way more fun. But I will say, most jumper riders spend their earlier years in the hunter and equitation divisions, so they bring that foundation to the jumper ring, resulting in usually smoother, more efficient rounds that also happen to be more visually pleasing to watch.

I watched the Working Hunters at Royal Windsor this year and was genuinely disappointed in the riding that I saw. Riders hanging on mouths/backs over jumps, horses running around on the wrong leg or disunited and on their forehand, extremely deep chips and flyers into the one-stride, etc. In two hours I saw maybe three rounds that were truly polished from start to finish with consistent distances, correct leg around corners (even if they had to execute a simple change), and well balanced riding. Still a very different aesthetic (tack, attire, outline, etc) to what I'm used to from the US hunters, but at minimum I would have thought distances/balance/legs etc were the basic expectations of WH classes here in the UK. The county shows were about the same.

To clarify yes, I've seen some absolutely lovely riding and lovely horses in the UK too that I quite admire.


There absolutely have been doping scandals in the US hunter/jumper world. Outright drugs were used at one point decades ago then outlawed, more recently magnesium supplements were given because it was thought it helped keep the horses on a more even keel. Not sure if that's still a thing, but there is a robust drug testing program at all USEF rated horse shows, and there is a zero doping policy in the hunter/jumper divisions (hunter divisions, equitation divisions, jumper divisions). And yes, horses were lunged excessively which required more stewards to monitor warmup/lunge arenas on the show grounds to enforce time limits. The lunging issues probably still happen to some degree, and shouldn't. My one complaint with the North American (because Canadians have basically the same system) hunter divisions is that it is SO idealistic these days, riders SO focused on perfection, that they almost don't know what to do with a fresh horse....and they ought to.

That said...A good hunter that is well rested and well ridden is probably the smoothest, most polished picture you will ever find under tack. And just because they're not going around in a dressage-type outline on tight contact or running around with their tail on fire does not mean they're not engaged behind.


Your observations are accurate. There are definitely trainers and programs that catered to the "scared amateur" and would do whatever was necessary for the 40-50-something female horse show client to feel safe and happy at the horse show. Many clients in that description don't WANT to hack out, go for an XC school, or have variety, and that's sad to me. But there are those types of trainers/barns, and there are others who do provide variety by going out hacking, doing hunter paces, having gymkhanas at Halloween or Christmas, encouraging clients to clinic with other trainers or even bringing a dressage trainer on the farm for monthly lessons. That was my last barn in Kentucky before I moved to the UK. They do exist.

Exactly this and part deux. Canada has basically the same system. My other complaint about the hunters in particular is how many riders tend to "lay" on the horse's neck over a jump but otherwise, absolutely agree with both of these posts you've made!