Do dressage judges care if...

Cragrat

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...you use a shaped numnah under your saddle instead of a white square? I know they are meant to judge the performance of the horse and rider, not the tack-but they are human!

I've checked the rules - if we go affiliated again, then numnahs are allowed, but would I risk getting off on the wrong hoof, and possibly throwing away a precious mark or two, even if its a subconcious reaction from the judge?

I have fairly short-backed TB's, and in my opinion they look a bit daft in a square - and I simply prefer a neat, shaped numnah - it also gives a smaller sweat patch, and they are easier to clean!
 

Cowpony

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No. I use a black sheepskin numnah under my black saddle and nobody has ever said a word. We had an official tack check at an Area Festival a couple of weeks ago and all they were interested in was how tight the nosebands were. White squares are a fashion, not a requirement.
 

Red-1

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I have used a black numnah before, and gone unplaited, and have no flash strap, and not had a whip, no spurs. As my horse was happier in that kit than any other, to change it would have been for dressage fashion. I have also gone in tweed and a tie, in a skull cap and in jodh boots and chaps. When it was cold I also wore a body protector!

Still won at BD. So they can't mind!

I think they like to see happy, confident, well kept horses who are moving well.
 

Wheels

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No they don't care.

I use a brown sheepskin number under my brown treeless saddle and have still won classes
 

catkin

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A numnah is permitted kit, a judge will be looking at your horses way of going as that's what a dressage class is about. I've always used sheepskin numnahs rather than those squares as that's what my saddles are fitted with - doesn't make any difference to the marks.

PS Is it just me that finds it rather sad that this question should even have to be asked, that someone is feeling uncomfortable to the point that they shouldn't do something because their perfectly good tack may not be the in-thing? - (OK stirring a bit here) is a faddy fashion more important than way of going?
 

milliepops

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PS Is it just me that finds it rather sad that this question should even have to be asked, that someone is feeling uncomfortable to the point that they shouldn't do something because their perfectly good tack may not be the in-thing? - (OK stirring a bit here) is a faddy fashion more important than way of going?

I don't think it's sad, I think it's human nature for the OP to want to check something if she isn't that familiar with affiliated shows.
People often want to fit in with what other people are wearing or using. Not many people want to stand out for the wrong reasons :)

I think these days there is a clear fashion element at BD with constant questions on FB about whether x y or z is considered within the rules (i.e. they are pretty much bending them) ;) so it's understandable that the OP wanted to check something that seems out of the norm.

Of course faddy fashion isn't more important, but some people enjoy it... I'm a stick in the mud and still choose a velvet hat, for instance :p
 

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No "faddy fashion" is not more important than way of going but most people want to create the best impression of their horse that they can and many don't like to be different, theres nothing wrong in that surely? Actually there's much more freedom nowadays to use what suits your horse and I applaud that.
 

be positive

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It is important that competitors know the basic rules as from time to time even judges/ stewards get them wrong, a few years ago I was writing at BE and the steward then the judge tried to eliminate a competitor for having a black square, it was only because I insisted it was fine and that a white square was NOT essential that the judge backed down and allowed the rider to compete, I did get the rulebook out to prove the point but I should not have had to do so.
 

ihatework

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It is important that competitors know the basic rules as from time to time even judges/ stewards get them wrong, a few years ago I was writing at BE and the steward then the judge tried to eliminate a competitor for having a black square, it was only because I insisted it was fine and that a white square was NOT essential that the judge backed down and allowed the rider to compete, I did get the rulebook out to prove the point but I should not have had to do so.

😱 😱😱
 

ycbm

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I don't think that the judge will know that they care, and I don't think this will affect all judges, but subconsciously it will be noticed that you are not in the accepted standard gear, which is definitely a white square and has been for decades.

And once in a while, there will be a judge who subconsciously scores a person in non standard gear lower. When it's very borderline between one mark and the next, they'll give the lower.

Please note that subconsciously means that the judge doesn't know that they are doing it. And if you doubt the power of subconscious messages, look up subliminal advertising, which is banned. Subliminal adverts are ones which are shown for such a short time on the TV that people don't consciously register seeing them. Yet they still make people buy things.

And some dressage judges do notice things. A writer told me her dressage judge had questioned why my friend was riding in a smart cutaway jacket but rubber boots (smart Aigles, not wellies!). and a judge once stopped me before my test and asked why I had not plaited (there is no requirement to plait). Both listed judges.

For those reasons, I would never compete at dressage in anything but the 'uniform' white square.

.
 

milliepops

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I have definitely sat in writing for judges who have remarked upon the competitor's dress or tack before the test starts, if they are using something very unusual. I don't consider a numnah to be very unusual though, it's about as traditional as you can get, turnout-wise.
When the test started, it was business as usual with no suggestion that what the horse or rider was wearing was colouring their judgement.
Do you think your score was affected by not plaiting? (I only plait my native because her mane is so unruly it's impossible to see her neck properly otherwise :p)
 

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I was wrongly penalised for having a gel seat saver on (same colour as my saddle). I didn’t question it until I got home and read the rules and realised I was allowed to use it. I contacted the venue and they apologised and said they would change my score and let the judge know for future.
 

ycbm

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MP, it's not actually relevant whether my score on that day was affected by not plaiting. Though my riding was definitely affected by her aggressive questionning if it immediately before the test started.

What is relevant is that somewhere, on some day, a score has or will be affected by a judges subconscious reaction to non-standard turnout, and why take that risk if you don't need to? Dressage is already subjective enough without that.

.
 

ycbm

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I was wrongly penalised for having a gel seat saver on (same colour as my saddle). I didn’t question it until I got home and read the rules and realised I was allowed to use it. I contacted the venue and they apologised and said they would change my score and let the judge know for future.


They used to be banned. Judge hadn't kept up with rule changes!
 

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I write a lot for judges and I know they do not really look at details like that. What will concern them is riders not being polite , riders not being well turned out and horses not being clean , that's rude .
 

milliepops

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I think it is kind of relevant because otherwise the subconsious reaction doesn't matter either way.
I am sure I get a subconsious reaction turning up to an advanced class on a 14.2 hairy pony but as I feel that the scores we achieve are generally in line with what I would give myself, it doesn't appear to have an effect when we start the test. (one judge excepted, but he is spectacularly snooty to almost everyone).

Being questioned having an effect on your riding is understandable as a human reaction, but as we don't compete in controlled conditions there are lots of things that can do that - I got beeped by the judge mid-test at area festivals a few years ago having ridden the correct movement, judge at C made a mistake and stopped me thinking I'd gone wrong. things happen all the time that put you off.

Plenty of -very experienced and successful - people push the boundaries with different coloured jackets,sparkly hats, shiny boots, different numnahs or stirrups or bridles etc etc etc
all that difference can't all be affecting scores - if anything on the whole scores seem to be going ever up and up ;)
 

catkin

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I have definitely sat in writing for judges who have remarked upon the competitor's dress or tack before the test starts, if they are using something very unusual. I don't consider a numnah to be very unusual though, it's about as traditional as you can get, turnout-wise.
When the test started, it was business as usual with no suggestion that what the horse or rider was wearing was colouring their judgement.
Do you think your score was affected by not plaiting? (I only plait my native because her mane is so unruly it's impossible to see her neck properly otherwise :p)

The 'business as usual' from judges has been my experience too.
Years ago I was pulled up by a List 2 judge on the colour of my breeches of all things though it was at a time when the clothing boundaries had been pushed a bit and rules tightened. Being a bit contrary (I was riding a native pony so stood out a bit anyway) I did politely say that I only had this one pair of beige breeches and that I'd spent all my spare money on lessons that benefitted the pony rather than clothing. The judge marked my pony absolutely correctly during the test - as this particular judge did in subsequent tests over the years that pony was going through the grades.

Plaiting or neatly presented without plaiting didn't seem to make any difference.
 

scats

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They used to be banned. Judge hadn't kept up with rule changes!

Ah ok! Interestingly though, I felt I was very harshly marked that day. My overall comment on the sheet didn’t seem to match what had been said higher up so I wasn’t able to learn from as I wasn’t sure where these mistakes had been made (lack of accuracy was mentioned in overall comment but nothing had been said above other than unsteady head in canter). On watching the test back, I was a bit dumbfounded because I still couldn’t see anything that had warranted that comment. Interestingly, I watched the last 2 tests- there were several wrong legs in canter and some quite obvious mistakes- napping horses, missing markers etc, yet both of them scored higher than me.
It was definitely a shrug it off and move on day!
 

ycbm

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I think it is kind of relevant because otherwise the subconsious reaction doesn't matter either way.


MP it would mean that the subconscious reaction didn't happen that day. Which doesn't mean it won't happen on another day. Or that anybody can tell when it wil and when it won't.

And since dressage is already subjective enough, why would anyone take an unnecessary risk that it will be their day and their judge?


Plenty of -very experienced and successful - people push the boundaries with different coloured jackets,sparkly hats, shiny boots, different numnahs or stirrups or bridles etc etc etc
all that difference can't all be affecting scores - if anything on the whole scores seem to be going ever up and up ;)


I'm not sure that the example of top level judges judging people who are people who are already very successful is very relevant. Showing shows us what having the right name sat on the horse does for its chances, and dressage is far too akin to showing for an average rider to take the risk of using non standard gear if they are setting out to win.



This risk isn't big or consistent. But it's there, it will be until dressage judging is done by a robot, and it's avoidable.
 

ycbm

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I write a lot for judges and I know they do not really look at details like that. What will concern them is riders not being polite , riders not being well turned out and horses not being clean , that's rude .


No, you don't know that. You know that the ones you wrote for didn't say anything. You have absolutely no idea how they were reacting subconsciously, because they didn't either!
 

catkin

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Very interesting discussion.

The original question was not about non-standard gear though - it was about a numnah (just about as 'standard' as you can get!!). Sorry OP if we've been hi-jacking your thread a bit!
 

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My experience of dressage scribing is that judges do notice what they consider to be unusual turnout choices. It may not be written on your sheet, but a 'off air' comment will likely have been made to the writer.

One particularly bonkers list 2a judge got very aerated if competitors didn't dash to start the test as soon as she sounded the horn. 'So rude!' she'd exclaim if they dared to take another circuit outside the arena to prepare the horse, despite it being well within the permitted time limit according to the rule book.

Personally, while dressage squares do look smart, I do think that they are hot and sweaty for the horses. Numnahs are more comfortable.
 

milliepops

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given that you can end up with random scores because of infinite uncontrolled events happening e.g judge sneezes at critical moment then I don't think it's worth worrying about too much. JMHO.

I can't control whether a judge thinks a pony turned out neatly in a tidy numnah is better or worse than my pony turned out in a white square. Perhaps they think mine is mutton dressed as lamb and I ought to be in a tweed and numnah!? I have heard a judge comment on one occasion that coloured horses look smarter in a not-white square. Owners of grey horses often come to a similar conclusion :p

These things have been talked about in a conversational way IME pre test but not when it comes to scoring .. so unless already told by a specific judge you know you're going to be in front of, I really don't see how you can know either way what is likely to give the best subconsious impression? And therefore going for smart and definitely within the rules is perfectly sensible.
 

milliepops

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I'm not sure that the example of top level judges judging people who are people who are already very successful is very relevant. Showing shows us what having the right name sat on the horse does for its chances, and dressage is far too akin to showing for an average rider to take the risk of using non standard gear if they are setting out to win.
I didn't refer specifically to top level judges or names, just successful and experienced riders :) Go to virtually any busy BD show and you will see a range of turnout options chosen, from Prelim to GP, black squares, white squares, silver stirrups, black stirrups, shiny hats, top hats, velvet hats, crash hats, fly veils, bling, brown tack, black boots, brown boots, patent glittery blue boots, tweed, tails, waistcoats, plaited and not. You name it, you will see it.
I tend to ride at venues that do use higher level judges and have done from the lower levels upwards. I have faith in their integrity to score what they see in terms of performance, not clothing, and if they chat with the writer outside of the scoring i don't care particularly ;)

ETA, of course there will always be exceptions but in terms of a rider's competition career, they do tend to be the exception I think? You remember the bad experiences because they stand out against countless good or neutral ones.
 
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Rowreach

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Rules are one thing of course, but for any sport or discipline where a subjective opinion comes in, you will always have discrepancies. Short of banning dressage, showing, ice skating, Strictly Come Dancing, we just have to accept that some people will judge things differently to others.

The OP's view is that her short backed horse looks better in a numnah than a square, so potentially she will gain marks subliminally for that 😃
 

milliepops

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The OP's view is that her short backed horse looks better in a numnah than a square, so potentially she will gain marks subliminally for that 😃
yep and as confidence is such a critical part of good performance for many people, feeling like you're presenting yourselves in a smart and comfortable way has got to be a good thing too :)
 

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No they won't care at all about a numnah rather than a saddle cloth. If the way of going is correct you should get the marks. Having said that, I have always thought it is important to "look the part". Personally, I want the first impression the judge gets when they see me to be "they look as though they know what they are doing" and subconsciously benchmark the scores they will be giving at at least a 7! I think there is a danger that if you don't "look the part" that the first impression they get is that you look out of place and they may, in their heads before you start, have a doubt as to how you will perform and start to waiver around a lower "benchmark" to judge your actual performance against which will then be harder for you to displace in their mind. So I think it depends how far someone is varying from the norm whether it risks impacting marks.
 
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