Do people not recognise, or ignore pain, in their horse?

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misskk88

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I was at a show on Sunday, supporting a friend who had gone out to do some BD. She took her trusty 21 year old veteran, with the aim of qualifying for the BD Veteran championships end of October (which she did!).

We watched a few classes and also got chatting to people next door to us in the lorry, who were lovely. I wanted to take her horse back with me!

I watched this girls test and my friends. Both horses, were relaxed, happy and working well. They smiled through the warm up, through the tests, whilst standing on the lorry, whilst being tacked up. Most the time things looked fluid and floaty. Their scores reflected that, with blue and red rosettes to show for it! For a 21 year old that had been dragged out of almost semi retirement, he did pretty darn well! Both were a pleasure to watch, and both were a pleasure to be around too. Its those moments that you realise exactly why you have such a passion for it all.

We then watched another lady warming up. There were lots of people there, but hers caught my eye, really for the wrong reasons. Her horse was difficult to get on and when first warming up its stride kept chucking her out the saddle, although it wasn't lame. Its facial expression throughout the whole of the warm up was not a pretty picture, with ears back, a tight jaw and its lips mumbling away. It tried to do what was asked of it and whilst it actually was a nice horse working well, the overall picture didn't look 'right'. There was clearly tension in the horse for whatever reason, and whilst it wasn't outwardly having a tantrum, all the subtle signals were there (first though was, oh, I wonder what the tack fits like!). To me the horses mannerisms signalled pain, somewhere, yet the horse was asked to continue working, through a very long warm up and then through novice/elem tests. Nothing about the horse said fresh, excited, or hot headed... just pain.

I felt sorry for it, because it was clearly trying, but so obviously not comfortable. Then I just felt annoyed at the riders ignorance. For someone riding at more than a very basic level, surely, somewhere in their head, they should or would recognise that potentially, their horse is in pain? Or do people just choose to ignore it for whatever reason?

I know I am constantly assessing my horses comfort, the way they feel, if they feel off, what could it be etc. To me, that is what forms the basis of being a true horse person! Or am I wrong?
 
You know what they say... never judge a book by it's cover. Unless you asked the lady what was up or approached her and said "I'm not sure your mount looks right, madam" and got an answer, who is to say what was wrong?

Could have just been a mare in season. Tack probably wasn't right. Could have been a horse she was taking to a show the first time. Maybe she was nervous? I'm not sure you can say she wasn't a good horsewoman by one test that looked tense.

I actually feel a bit sorry for her that she has been judged a little harshly perhaps :) I'm playing devils advocate here, and maybe you are right to be concerned. What could you have done anyway even if you were right...
 
I'm afraid that it is much too common. In fact, I would say that well over half of all horse people, and that includes professionals, are oblivious to signs of pain in their horses unless it is obviously lame. Far too often bad behaviour is put down to quirkiness, naughtiness, sharpness, "cold backed", nastiness... When in reality it is due to pain in nine out of ten cases. Horses really do suffer for it. Even if you look at the movies, or that lovely Lloyds bank advert. It makes me wince every time you see the poor milk float horse toss his head up in agony as it is yanked roughly to a halt wearing a curb bit.
 
Feel exactly the same as you. My YO has a horse that screams out that he's in pain. He usually just gets told off/tack tightened/more things added to drown it out. YO doesn't listen to anyone (including two physios, dentist and instructor) and believes he can't "get away with it" and she needs to win. She scoffed at me for having every specialist under the sun out when my horse was a bit under the weather, and often likes to brag about how much more knowledgeable she is. Apparently horse is being sold, and I hope to God he goes to someone with the slightest bit of empathy (or sense).

While there's no excuse for ignorance, at least hopefully they would get help if it was pointed out. Far better than knowing/being told, and refusing to admit it. My heart breaks for the horse.
 
I'm just like you, I'm always thinking about how my horse is going!

My pony, recently backed, can look a little lame in trot on one diagonal because he isn't as strong that side as the other. For weeks I was so paranoid that he actually was lame (I was just bringing him back into work after an abscess in a hind), I used to make my friend watch him and make sure he wasn't in pain!
I hate watching horses (or any animal) that are clearly in pain, and even those that are tense and unhappy.
 
I am completely the opposite, I am hyper aware and think I pick up on things even when everyone else thinks it's fine, it's hard to push on and ride even when it's on vets orders. I have the vet coming again in a few hours but it's so hard to know what to say to her. My pony is sleek and glossy and looks a million dollars, but to me who knows him so well he isn't right. His eyes are less bright, he is less friendly to other horses and a bit aggressive instead (never thought I'd say that), his face muscles just look tight like when you have a headache and scrunch your face up, he is spooking at nothing, freaking out for no reason in the field, and under saddle he pins his ears in canter and struggles to maintain it. On a bute trial there was a slight improvement but still very random between good and bad days. But this is a horse with PSSM, liver issues and a sacroiliac injury so I guess I have good reason to analyse everything! Just hoping the vet takes me seriously given I think today is one of his better days.

I will say though that with the pssm I think some horses have to be ridden a bit before they relax. Mine can be a bit sticky and unhappy looking for the first half hour but then his muscles feel more comfy and he pings along brilliantly with happy ears.
 
I just rode a nice little mare, she is the workhorse in the yard and totally safe.
She has almost certainly got ulcers, is badly shod and is fed a lot of carrots and some cheap, heavily molassed mix. Such a shame to see her treated like that, but it would cost money to get veterinary intervention and a good farrier, so it won't happen. The owner has no idea, but basically does not care enough. Does not know enough.

Even shod and particularly newly shod she is footy.

His farrier is a lot cheaper[£30.00] than mine [£65.00]. He told me proudly, so I told him straight: I would not let his farrier shoe my horses.
I looked at her feet, the soles are flat and close to the ground, the nails were too big for the shoes, so she is being asked to walk on the nailheads.

I paid for two rides on her, one on tarmac and grass she was fine, but going up a mountain track she was feeling it, and coming down she was worse, if I had wanted to make a point, I would have got off and walked with her downhill, but it was not that bad, once back at the yard I looked at the feet, the soles were so close to the ground she was touching stones nearly all the time.
 
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misskk88 said:
. Its facial expression throughout the whole of the warm up was not a pretty picture, with ears back, a tight jaw and its lips mumbling away. It tried to do what was asked of it and whilst it actually was a nice horse working well, the overall picture didn't look 'right'. There was clearly tension in the horse for whatever reason, and whilst it wasn't outwardly having a tantrum, all the subtle signals were there (first though was, oh, I wonder what the tack fits like!). To me the horses mannerisms signalled pain, somewhere, yet the horse was asked to continue working, through a very long warm up and then through novice/elem tests. Nothing about the horse said fresh, excited, or hot headed... just pain.


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To be honest it may be that it is uncomfortable warming up in an area where other horses are in close proximity. I've done a lot of unaffilated SJ and some of the show centres I compete at have dreadful warm up facilities. You quite often get young kids on ponies skimming past you with clacky over reach boots on, smacking their horses as they get level with you, or shouting at their horses. Sometimes they canter right towards you forgetting (or not knowing) about the left hand to left hand rule. My horse is actually scared of warm up areas when there are lots of horses about. This may be tension down the reins from me admittedly as I don't like it when it gets overcrowded either. I would hate him to get kicked (there have been many near misses throughout the years) when horses have been reprimanded by a swift kick from their rider, or a smack from a whip and kicked out as they are going past my horse.

My horse doesn't warm up well. I am nearly always asking my partner if he 'looks okay' as he turns into a slow, hollow, miserable wreck. He is not in pain, I am certain of this, but he just dislikes the warm up area. I took him to a dressage competition a couple of weeks ago. He wouldn't go forward, his ears were back every time a horse got near, and he visibly flinched as they passed him in canter. When they come up behind him his eyes sometimes roll back to look at them, and he is clearly unhappy. He is not a nasty horse, yet he appears to be if horses get close, when he flinches as if in fear of being hurt. I think he is guarding himself and his various conditions (which are all treated by the way) is worried about being kicked in his vulnerable areas. Sometimes when the collecting ring has petered out and there is just us and maybe one or two others he is different, he visibly relaxes and is able to concentrate. When I was called in for my test I took him into the dressage arena and any worries I had vanished - it was if I was riding a completely different horse, he was free in his paces, ears forward, relaxed, tail swinging, the epitome of a happy horse. We got a very credible 66% in our prelim test and some lovely comments from the judge.

As someone said previously, you really cant judge a book by its cover. You need to see the whole story and appreciate why the horse may be going like it is going, its not always pain related!
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Tallyho, you raise a good point and an alternative opinion, of which I do totally agree with too. It can be very easy to judge from looking from the outside in!!

I do however try to ensure that I use moments like these, through observation to learn something new, to see what I do/don't like, what is good/tactful/bad riding and to then assess my own areas of weakness and where I can then improve as a horse person, that also includes understanding potentially extenuating circumstances (as an example you mentioned nerves, and as katpt mentioned pssm), so I totally take on board your points!

I have little doubt in my mind though from the image I still have in my head that this horse had some level of pain (perhaps discomfort is a better word) somewhere. I wasn't the only one to notice... Friend also pointed out this horse without me even mentioning it out loud. Which then got me thinking, I wonder how many horses work in similar circumstances, how many people recognise the subtle signs without the horse exploding/bucking/rearing.

It was a general musing to see whether it actually is a lot more common, than I had originally ever thought. Or do we often misread the signs (potentially I could have, or perhaps I read them right, but didn't take into account outside influences too?!). I think my general ignorance only a couple of years ago perhaps means I am even more conscious of it now, maybe even a little overly so! I am just glad that I have a new found mind set towards my horse and its behaviours. I know how easy it is to excuse things, rather than to investigate, and that comes not from just ignorance, but a lack of education, understanding and experience.

PS - Applecart14, I also see your point about understanding and recognising your horses way of going in certain situations. Congrats on the dressage score!
 
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I do think you are probably right, that horse probably was in discomfort, whether emotional or physical. The one thing you can hope is that the rider was not ignorant of it but is trying to improve things e.g a tense nervous horse or rider being taken out more often to get them used to it, so that maybe the next time it won't be so unhappy. Or you could be absolutely right and it's hurting and the rider just has no clue. My little pssm horse is certainly in pain/discomfort some of the time, but I'm told the best thing for it is exercise. Admittedly when he is ear pinning and planting in upwards transitions I take this as a clear 'I'm hurting' sign and we go back to walking for as long as it takes. I know when it's enough as I'll then ask for a trot transition later on and he will pop up into trot with his ears forwards. It's a good job I'm not competitive as I very much work according to what he tells me he can do! Before I knew he had pssm and other issues people thought he was naughty and needed to get on with it but I knew something was off as he is usually so willing.
 
It's tricky as some horses are really stoic, while others will complain about the slightest thing. It needn't even be pain. My two could not be more different. M will soldier on with no signs of anything until it's so bad he physically can't hide it any longer. He's not long finished 2 months box rest after going very lame very suddenly. At camp he was jumping in the morning, didn't even look at or touch a fence let alone stop or knock one down. They weren't huge, but they weren't small either - about 90-100cms. He came out to do flat work in the afternoon and although he was fine in walk he could barely put any weight on the leg in trot. Vet is certain the issue had been there a while and come to a head that day, rather than it being a sudden injury.

On the other hand A was left dangling a foot in mid air for an hour last week because he had a very small, flat stone in it. It was completely encased in mud so wasn't digging in anywhere, but he could obviously feel something different in his hoof. I picked his feet out and there was clearly no damage but it didn't stop him waving it around like it was broken. An hour later when he decided he could actually put it down again he was fine. This is typical him - the slightest thing will upset him (not even pain, it could be anything from a friend walking away from him or another horse cutting across his path to someone shouting too close to him or another rider falling off close by) and he'll be anxious and tense for ages. There's little I can do about it except keep him going quietly and consistently until he gets over himself. That might appear cruel to others but, knowing him as I do, if I pander to him, he believes even more there's something to worry about and gets worse.
 
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what surprises me is people don't seem to know the difference between the horse looking well and ill,

maybe it is a bad or good habit, but i always spend at least 5 min a day just looking, whether in the field or stable. how they are standing, back straight, tracking up when moving round the paddock etc but i don't seem to do this with mine but all the others in the field, starting to wonder if this is the start of OCD ;)


when the lameness is subtle i find it easier with a shod horse to hear rather than see


mine went through a phase of catching every virus under the sun, normally a quite horse i could tell that there was a problem and every time i was unfortunately correct about the elevated temperature.
 
TBH I think it's difficult to tell if tension is a result of pain or something else unless you know the horse. Mr B can be very tense in some situations but especially in a warm up if a horse comes too close to him. His default is to fix his neck, clamp the bit and get very tense over the back, he also clacks his teeth. The only way to deal with it is to work through it and he usually looks a lot worse before he starts to relax and work through. I have a horrible feeling the OP would be very judgemental about him and me! I'd love him to be a really chilled relaxed horse, but he isn't and he's got baggage from his earlier life. There's an expression "don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes", guess I'd say, "Please don't make assumptions unless you have the full facts".
 
misskk88 said:
PS - Applecart14, I also see your point about understanding and recognising your horses way of going in certain situations. Congrats on the dressage score!
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Thank you, I was very pleased with him. We have dressage this Sunday, no doubt he will look dreadful again in the warm up and people will be wondering.....I just hope they stick around long enough to watch our test and dispel any doubts. Bless him.
 
hollyandivy123 said:
what surprises me is people don't seem to know the difference between the horse looking well and ill,


.
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I know instantly if my horse is colicky (he's quite prone to gassy colic) I still try him with a tit bit for verfication, and if he does have colic he will either not eat it or eat it as if its poison I'm feeding him :)
 
I think that some people are 'in denial' about pain in their horses. They could be worried about the cost of investigating the problem, as, If the horse has been 'off' for a while it can be a long road to discover the primary cause of the issue so they might carry on and hope that horse improves - this of course is wrong but I think it happens quite often.

Some horses with chronic issues are still worked because the owner believes it is better for the horse to carry on (I would always try to keep a horse ticking over in work but I think very carefully about the level of activity), or the horse is their horse of a lifetime and they are struggling to come to terms with the fact that the horse may need to be retired.

And of course some owners just aren't aware that the horse is lame.

I am all too aware of issues with my horse and I would much rather be this way, but it does give me a headache sometimes :)
 
As someone who has had a horse who suffered low level pain for longer than I like to think about, it can be very hard, even with the best intentions, to learn the signs of pain when your concerns are brushed off by those who are considered better than you. If you think a horse is uncomfortable, but two instructors, the owner, and a woman who takes on problem horses all say he's just avoiding work and you're pandering to him, how are you, as a reasonably novice loaner, to say otherwise? I felt very let down by the people I'd tried to learn from when I bought my horse and took him to my new instructor, and she announced 'he's halfway to crippled'. No one until then had been willing to commit the time and effort to teaching me what subtle changes to look for, or teaching him how to carry himself well instead of being trapped in a vicious circle of hollowing away from pain, making it worse by hollowing, so hollowing further. My instructor has absolutely changed my horse's life, but she said she has lost a lot of clients by telling them their horse is uncomfortable, and that it will take long, slow groundwork to get them right.

I think the problem is in education, whether its people not wanting to find out their horse is in pain, or knowledgeable people not wanting to make themselves unpopular or lose a paying client by pointing it out.

I've tried to do my best for my horse since I got him, and he's changed almost beyond recognition, but it really kills me that he worked for so long whilst so uncomfortable, and I just didn't know because I believed all those experienced people who said he was just naughty.
 
Littlebrownhorse said:
I think that some people are 'in denial' about pain in their horses. They could be worried about the cost of investigating the problem, as, If the horse has been 'off' for a while it can be a long road to discover the primary cause of the issue so they might carry on and hope that horse improves - this of course is wrong but I think it happens quite often.

Some horses with chronic issues are still worked because the owner believes it is better for the horse to carry on (I would always try to keep a horse ticking over in work but I think very carefully about the level of activity), or the horse is their horse of a lifetime and they are struggling to come to terms with the fact that the horse may need to be retired.
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I agree with the above. I think the cost can be prohibitve when investigating problems. Luckily I've always had a good veterinary insurance policy so have been able to investigate immediately problems with my horse, and go down the treatment route sucessfully with the aid of a good vet who is prepared to 'throw everything' at the horse.

Some horses are better to be worked, depending on their issues like you say - I keep my horse in work best I can and vary his workload between hacking, schooling and grid work. With hacking I normally do an hour at a time, schooling I keep to 30 mins, and gridwork probably about five maybe six times down a grid is all he needs once a week/fortnight. I don't compete very often at the moment as I have other priorities but as long as the horse is happy in its work, isnt refusing fences, or knocking them down continually and the vet is happy at his reassessments then there is no need to worry.

I quite often see horses at unaffiliated events that are half crippled, or moving awkwardly and think I worry needlessly about my own horse. I know its easy to fall into the trap of endlessly studying every stride the horse takes, taking every little stumble or swish of the tail however infrequent and blowing it out of proportion. I wonder if these horses that I see at events have owners that don't have the knowledge or money to have their horse investigated. I don't think people are being deliberately cruel. I just think people aren't aware.

My vets always said to me that I have two choices, retire the horse (he would probably last six months) or continue working him which he has said is the best option for my lad. My horse would always tell me when there is a problem.
 
I would say that people would say that watching my youngster at times at the moment. She's 4yo.

However I have a few reasons, she's currently in season and She is at the point in her education where she is pushing the boundaries as what she is learning is new.

So its not always pain, and we all have bad days out competing!
 
mine is pretty stoic, she doesn't really react unless it's pretty bad. I remember when I was a kid she fell over with me in some water, but I rode her home and she was fine. Then when I got off I saw she had a big cut down her leg and burst into tears of guilt lol !
However if something is really painful she does let me know about it, she will just stop dead and paw the ground. (This has only happened 3 times in the years I've had her- once she had tied up, the other times she had nasty foot abscesses. So now- stopping and pawing= me calling the vet!).
 
Or as in my case is could be that the Owner has always thought the horse isn't/wasn't right but has been told the complete OPPOSITE by more than one professional (incl physio)!! Horse also had full vet workup to show no "physical" problems.

Finally after TWO YEARS I found a physio who said yes your horse has lots of problems and lo 10 months later horse is completely different to the point I have been asked if it is the same horse!!!

Sadly in my experience lots of trainers/pro's/physios etc just want a quick fix and say as the horse is sound (in leg action) that it must be temperament (especially if said horse is a mare....oh it's a mare it cannot possibly be physical blah blah blah)

I'm SOOOOO cross my poor mare had to wait so long to be fixed but thankfully FINALLY she is comfortable.

The lesson I learned is to listen to my horse louder than the pro's who shouted it was her temperament.
 
I've just been thinking about this and wondered why you think "over half of all horse people, and that includes professionals are oblivious to signs of pain in their horses unless it is obviously lame"? My experience has been rather different as I have found that riders are very quick to say that their horse doesn't feel quite right, or notice slight changes in behaviour that may indicate a problem. I've stood and watched a lot of competitions over the years at all levels and although I've seen the odd horse that didn't look right, most were sound, well cared for animals with owners that clearly spent a lot of time and effort in looking after them. The issue I worry about most is overweight horses. Yes, of course I've seen poor riding, my own isn't always as good as I'd like and I've seen a few horses acting up, perhaps pain related or through poor riding or because the horse has decided to be a bit of an arse but not at the levels that you seem to have experienced. Where do you go to find these ignorant unfeeling people? Honestly, I'm not having a go but labelling horse people like this seems a bit unfair.
Speedyfluff said:
I'm afraid that it is much too common. In fact, I would say that well over half of all horse people, and that includes professionals, are oblivious to signs of pain in their horses unless it is obviously lame. Far too often bad behaviour is put down to quirkiness, naughtiness, sharpness, "cold backed", nastiness... When in reality it is due to pain in nine out of ten cases. Horses really do suffer for it. Even if you look at the movies, or that lovely Lloyds bank advert. It makes me wince every time you see the poor milk float horse toss his head up in agony as it is yanked roughly to a halt wearing a curb bit.
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I think few horses are operating at 100% comfort, health and fitness, ever tbh, but people are mostly doing their best for them short of keeping them as pets in case of any discomfort. I also think few of these ongoing, subtle health and soundness issues can just be put right, they mostly are what they are and that is the animal you've got, unless you pass it on, retire it or euthanise. Often just doing what you can with what you've got is the best of some pretty naf options.
 
I've been placed last at a shoe because my horse looked so miserable. It was our first show and I was nervous as hell, he was clipped and it was torrential rain and windy. He didn't make a pretty picture at all. But he wasn't in pain just not comfortable. That doesn't make me a bad horsewoman.

I don't think a lot of professions horses look comfortable in a certain sense but are they in pain and the owners bad horsemen? Sometimes concentration looks like pain I think.
 
I think a lot of riders forget a horse is hard wired not to show pain - as a prey animal, if he did, he would pretty soon be singled out as dinner for the local predator.
I'm as guilty as the next person - you may have read my thread where my horse's feet have crashed after several years of intermittent LGL and now I am beginning to realise that the reason he wasn't forward going was because his feet weren't comfortable. But how do you tell without regular expensive diagnostic tests? At least most of us care enough to investigate less than co-operative behaviour.
 
JillA said:
I think a lot of riders forget a horse is hard wired not to show pain - as a prey animal, if he did, he would pretty soon be singled out as dinner for the local predator.
I'm as guilty as the next person - you may have read my thread where my horse's feet have crashed after several years of intermittent LGL and now I am beginning to realise that the reason he wasn't forward going was because his feet weren't comfortable. But how do you tell without regular expensive diagnostic tests? At least most of us care enough to investigate less than co-operative behaviour.
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If you look at it another way, you probably prevented him from getting full on laminitis sooner by getting him to do as much exercise as he could tolerate for as long as he could tolerate it, improving his circulation and keeping his weight down.
 
Some people really should stick to a bike!

I guess we have all wished that we had listened to the horse sooner, or reconised a symptom in hindsight, I know I have. But what really makes me cross is when people say "Oh he just trying it on", without stopping to think about why thier horse is behaving in a particular way. Or they refuse to be flexible enough to work with the horse and accept that he would be happier if things were done slightly differently.
My Draft horse came with a reputation for biting. I soon found that her tack didn't fit and she was trying to say so. It took several weeks/months of careful retraining/desensitising to persuade her to accept her tack/rugs without fuss/threats to bite and I must admit that if she did occasionally pull a face later, I just put it down to learned behaviour or being in season. I also knew that she could be very protective of her personal space with other horses.

Then recently I realised that she is very sensitive to wheat in any form in her feed and stopped giving her ven the smallest amount. Several tiny scabs came to the surface of her coat, all over her body, when the wheat worked its way out of her system. Now she is far less protective of her personal space, even allowing her field-mate to share their water trugs recently. So now I know why she was so protective of her personal space, she didn't like being touched because her skin was sensitive.
 
46% of sport horses were found to be lame in a study carried out by Dr Sue Dyson on saddle slip. That is a staggering amount of horses,presumably owned by knowledgable people, being Sports horses.
My own experiences have been that my daughter and I saw glaring hindlimb lameness that our vet emphatically couldn't see - which is awkward...
And there's always cognitive dissonance. (How dare that person say my horse looks unsound!) :)
 
No, I'm sorry you are completely misquoting the study. Dr Dyson looked at 128 horses, 71 had hind limb lameness, 39 had slipping saddles, with nerve blocking 37 ceased to have a slipping saddle. This is not the same as saying 46% of sport horses were found to be lame. I think the point of this study was to suggest that if a horse has a slipping saddle, it may have hindlimb lameness.
ozpoz said:
46% of sport horses were found to be lame in a study carried out by Dr Sue Dyson on saddle slip. That is a staggering amount of horses,presumably owned by knowledgable people, being Sports horses.
My own experiences have been that my daughter and I saw glaring hindlimb lameness that our vet emphatically couldn't see - which is awkward...
And there's always cognitive dissonance. (How dare that person say my horse looks unsound!) :)
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