Do people not recognise, or ignore pain, in their horse?

ozpoz said:
46% of sport horses were found to be lame in a study carried out by Dr Sue Dyson on saddle slip. That is a staggering amount of horses,presumably owned by knowledgable people, being Sports horses.
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I've heard this quote before and initially thought it was awful but then reflected on my own aches and pains, and those of others I know (especially sporty people).

The majority of my friends who do serious sports suffer 'lameness' of some sort. So actually I don't think it's at all surprising sports horses do. That's not to say we should accept horses in pain, rather we shouldn't be surprised by it and should be all the more alert to the issue.

To answer OP I think too many owners are ignorant/oblivious to signs of pain.
 
Are lots of horses being asked to work when they are in some sort of physical pain? Yes,undoubtedly.

But we cannot judge one horse and rider that we don't know on one occasion on the basis of showing tension. Pain is not the only cause of tension, and although it may be common it is absolutely unfair to speculate about one specific horse when we don't know the full facts.

I'm also the proud owner of a lovely neddy who, when he goes out, looks tense and miserable. He doesn't much like other horses, or warm up areas, or spooky things round the arena. There's only so much you can practise at home, and I'm afraid we'll just have to keep going out until he starts to get the hang of it.

Lots of very valid comments on this thread, but please not let's fall into the trap of assuming they're valid for this particular combination on this particular day.
 
oldie48 said:
Ok, I am wrong in the study she looked at 506 sport horses that were believed to be sound, 46% were not sound. I am pretty staggered by this!
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The other 54% also probably suffered from the likes of head-shaking, heart murmurs, ulcers, back-ache, sweet itch, sarcoids, etc, etc. Like people, horses are REALLY faulty! We shouldn't all just give up and sit on our backsides though, if you get the point. Most things just have to be put up with to a point.
 
Flame_ said:
The other 54% also probably suffered from the likes of head-shaking, heart murmurs, ulcers, back-ache, sweet itch, sarcoids, etc, etc. Like people, horses are REALLY faulty! We shouldn't all just give up and sit on our backsides though, if you get the point. Most things just have to be put up with to a point.
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Absolutely agree. For every horse being asked to work through pain or badly fitting tack, how many more do you know who are "not quite 100%" and therefore basically retired?!

We need to do everything we can to make the horse comfortable - but some horses just aren't ever going to be 100% - should they all just see out their days in a field?
Personally I have dodgy knees, dodgy back, various stiffnesses and squintnesses, bad eyesight and an alarming fondness for cake. It doesn't stop me being active, doing triathlons and riding - I'm never going to be a world class athlete, but I am better off physically, mentally and emotionally working within my own limitations rather than just sitting about. I have the same view about my horse.
 
Just putting my hand up when I have been wrong, actually the research was 46% were lame or had a stilted canter. I did a trot up recently and was told the horse is 100% sound but you are lame! I'd certainly never pass a 2 stage vetting let alone a 5 stage but I'd like to think my horses were comfortable in their work even if I have to take a pain killer or two. I just sometimes get the feeling that too many folk on the forum like to bitch about other riders, which is sad as we all share the same love of a sport which is, at times, difficult, frustrating and bloody expensive. Wherever we are on our journey, I doubt any of us know it all.
Flame_ said:
The other 54% also probably suffered from the likes of head-shaking, heart murmurs, ulcers, back-ache, sweet itch, sarcoids, etc, etc. Like people, horses are REALLY faulty! We shouldn't all just give up and sit on our backsides though, if you get the point. Most things just have to be put up with to a point.
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Presumably when you first back a young horse you expect to feel the same lovely flowing canter you observe loose or lunged. And if it then goes on to be stiff and stilted you'd begin to think that something must be brewing, if not wrong? At this point, alarm bells are hopefully loudly ringing. Or not, as the case seems to be too often.
 
I agree with you especially your last sentence.A horses comfort should always come first.Some people are not fit to keep them and are a blight to the horses wellbeing.But who is to stop them ,certainly not the poor beast doing all it can to please. I know someone who rides a horse which is not pleasant to watch because he rides the horse too hard almost as if he was punishing it.There are ignorant and uncaring people out there that I have seen which have had me wondering why do they bother keeping a horse.
 
Theocat said:
Absolutely agree. For every horse being asked to work through pain or badly fitting tack, how many more do you know who are "not quite 100%" and therefore basically retired?!

We need to do everything we can to make the horse comfortable - but some horses just aren't ever going to be 100% - should they all just see out their days in a field?
Personally I have dodgy knees, dodgy back, various stiffnesses and squintnesses, bad eyesight and an alarming fondness for cake. It doesn't stop me being active, doing triathlons and riding - I'm never going to be a world class athlete, but I am better off physically, mentally and emotionally working within my own limitations rather than just sitting about. I have the same view about my horse.
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I wonder what the horse's view is.
 
Flame_ said:
The other 54% also probably suffered from the likes of head-shaking, heart murmurs, ulcers, back-ache, sweet itch, sarcoids, etc, etc. Like people, horses are REALLY faulty! We shouldn't all just give up and sit on our backsides though, if you get the point. Most things just have to be put up with to a point.
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Yes! So true!

I am definitely faulty... I'm only in my 30's (well... not far north of) and I've had a shoulder op, a foot op, soon to have a knee op... but hey, I'm not going to let that stop me. I'm in pain right now! If I stopped... that would be it. I'd seize up. I'd turn to flippin' stone!!!!

Much like some horses.. especially with arthritis... you have to keep going. People with debilitating rheumatoid conditions have to keep moving no matter how wonkily or else they lose joints. I know this as I sell wonderfully expensive drugs so people can keep moving and kill pain.

Having said that... I agree that it first has to be recognised - and treated appropriately. Human and horse. It has to be said though, many conditions go undiagnosed because people don't know what they are looking at. Even in their own bodies.
 
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I know what you mean op. I was at a show recently where there were a few horses exhibiting some kind of expression that cried out that something wasn't right. Saw lots of tense horses, lots of worried horses - some maybe in pain, some maybe just unhappy in their surroundings but whatever the reason I wondered whether these horses were in the right environment and judging by some of the riding I am not surprised by the expressions on the horses faces TBH, in the main the riding was OK but some things made me gasp I have to say
 
If a horse is actively unhappy in the environment we put it to work in, then I think we need to look at why we put it in that environment. An anxious youngster who exhibits signs of anxiety may be acceptable, if it is being sensibly introduced and acclimatised, an older animal unhappy in that environment and has been on many other occasions, then I think that questions need to be asked. I want my horses to be happy and wanting to please me, rather than 'subordinates' who must do as they are told, regardless of the stress that puts them under. To do other is, IMO a betrayal of trust.
 
Totally agree yorksg

The horses I described above were doing half passes in the warm up so I suspect had been there before. One had a flash noseband so bloody tight he couldn't open his mouth at all and resorted to teeth grinding and the look in his eye was upsetting. Beautiful horse too
 
Personally I aim for calm and focused not excited and hotheaded.
I do see horses I think are not right .
I see horses who coats look awful and whose muscles are inadequate IMO for the work they are doing .
But unless a horse is limping you can't really judge by watching I have enough to do focusing on my own horses.
Of course you see lots of things you don't like when you are out and about but their not your horses you don't know the story .
 
To those who say that they have wonky knees, backs, shoulders, whatever, and that because they choose to still be active, so should horses, there is a HUGE difference between what we CHOOSE to do, and what the horse is MADE to do. For example, if you have bad shoulders, they would be made much worse by pushing heavy wheelbarrows, carrying heavy bales etc. Do you think it would be good for you to be made to do these things even though it was making your shoulders worse? And for those with a bad back, should you be made to carry a rucksack and go pounding the pavements running? Do you think that would do you good? You see that is where humans can choose what they do and horses cannot. We can choose to be active in a way that it benefits us, rather than making things worse. Horses cannot do that. I am a believer that if a horse is in pain, it should not be ridden, full stop. A horse can keep active whilst in the field with its mates.
 
Speedyfluff said:
To those who say that they have wonky knees, backs, shoulders, whatever, and that because they choose to still be active, so should horses, there is a HUGE difference between what we CHOOSE to do, and what the horse is MADE to do. For example, if you have bad shoulders, they would be made much worse by pushing heavy wheelbarrows, carrying heavy bales etc. Do you think it would be good for you to be made to do these things even though it was making your shoulders worse? And for those with a bad back, should you be made to carry a rucksack and go pounding the pavements running? Do you think that would do you good? You see that is where humans can choose what they do and horses cannot. We can choose to be active in a way that it benefits us, rather than making things worse. Horses cannot do that. I am a believer that if a horse is in pain, it should not be ridden, full stop. A horse can keep active whilst in the field with its mates.
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So true.Horses of course are happiest with their fieldmates pain or not. Of course the old line of working for its keep is a good excuse for "using" a horse that should be rested or retired.
 
Theocat said:
Personally I have dodgy knees, dodgy back, various stiffnesses and squintnesses, bad eyesight and an alarming fondness for cake. It doesn't stop me being active, doing triathlons and riding - I'm never going to be a world class athlete, but I am better off physically, mentally and emotionally working within my own limitations rather than just sitting about. I have the same view about my horse.
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Without opening another can of worms I have to say I totally agree. I am on 17 tablets a day for a slipped disc and sciatica, maybe I should be told to retire or be euthanised! :)
The more active I am the better I feel - within reason. I wouldn't like to be stuck lying in bed all day - the equivalent of a horses retirement! I would feel bored out of my tree, and angry that the doctors hadn't tried to do all they could for me - the equivalent of a horses owner making sure a horse is diagnosed and treated appropriately.

It was interesting last night to watch my horse ridden by a very good and experience rider who had lost her horse some months ago and was wanting something to ride until she plucked up the courage to buy another horse. His stride was even, he was swinging through from behind, his ears were foward and he was clearly in no discomfort, going through all his paces, medium paces and flying changes, yet only three months or four months ago on this forum I was advised to have him PTS or retired as he had an injury (from which he has recovered from). How glad I am that I listened to my vets, friends and liveries and more importantly my horse.

Please no nasty comments.
 
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Speedyfluff said:
To those who say that they have wonky knees, backs, shoulders, whatever, and that because they choose to still be active, so should horses, there is a HUGE difference between what we CHOOSE to do, and what the horse is MADE to do. For example, if you have bad shoulders, they would be made much worse by pushing heavy wheelbarrows, carrying heavy bales etc. Do you think it would be good for you to be made to do these things even though it was making your shoulders worse? And for those with a bad back, should you be made to carry a rucksack and go pounding the pavements running? Do you think that would do you good? You see that is where humans can choose what they do and horses cannot. We can choose to be active in a way that it benefits us, rather than making things worse. Horses cannot do that. I am a believer that if a horse is in pain, it should not be ridden, full stop. A horse can keep active whilst in the field with its mates.
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I agree a horse in pain should not continue working. Although I think in some situations it can be beneficial to keep horses with mild conditions ticking over with an appropriate level of work. This should only of course be done with advice from a good vet/physio and regular assessments of the horse.
 
Theocat said:
Personally I have dodgy knees, dodgy back, various stiffnesses and squintnesses, bad eyesight and an alarming fondness for cake. It doesn't stop me being active, doing triathlons and riding - I'm never going to be a world class athlete, but I am better off physically, mentally and emotionally working within my own limitations rather than just sitting about. I have the same view about my horse.
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But you have the luxury of saying 'ouch it's a bit too much today, I'll take it easy', horses don't have this luxury. Seems some people don't give up their show day if the horse is feeling under the weather, they push on regardless - this is what we see at shows.
 
EQUIDAE said:
But you have the luxury of saying 'ouch it's a bit too much today, I'll take it easy', horses don't have this luxury. Seems some people don't give up their show day if the horse is feeling under the weather, they push on regardless - this is what we see at shows.
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But to be fair most horses are quick to tell you something is wrong. Mine would soon have me on the floor or refuse fences if there was a problem. Yes some horses are very stoic and forgiving but most are not.
 
applecart14 said:
I wouldn't like to be stuck lying in bed all day - the equivalent of a horses retirement!
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Eh? It may be the equivalent of box rest, but not of retirement for a horse. Retirement for a horse is not box rest, it is turnout in a herd (if they are lucky enough to get it).

With mild arthritic conditions, then sometimes keeping them ticking over with gentle hacks can be beneficial, but certainly not schooling, jumping or competing. Also if a horse takes more than a few minutes to work through any stiffness, I would argue that they should not be ridden. I know that from experience of my own conditions. Those that improve with movement do so within a couple of minutes. Those that take a lot longer usually end in more pain caused by the exercise. Some things have taken complete rest to improve.
 
Speedyfluff said:
With mild arthritic conditions, then sometimes keeping them ticking over with gentle hacks can be beneficial, but certainly not schooling, jumping or competing. .
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Says who exactly??? Certainly not in the opinion of my vet! It depends on whether the horse has been treated or not for arthritis. When my horse was diagnosed in 2007 I was told that he would go back into full work after treatment. If a horse has spavin but it has been treated then its okay to school and jump if the horse is comfortable and enjoys its work. That's why I've spent a few thousand pounds (or my insurance company has) getting my horse right. Admittedly I don't do the one day events I used to do much anymore, and I don't go out every weekend competing which is what I was doing at one point. But my horse is still capable and willing to jump a 3ft or 3ft 3 course as he is happy and willing to do an elementary dressage test. These days arthritis doesn't have to equal 'gentle hacks' and its ridiculous to suggest this as each horse is different, each responds differently to treatment and each has a different outcome. You can't label them all under one banner.

There are hundreds if not thousands of horses in this country that enjoy schooling hacking and jumping with mild arthritis, as there are people who enjoy riding, swimming, running and other sports and who also suffer from arthritis.
 
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Speedyfluff said:
To those who say that they have wonky knees, backs, shoulders, whatever, and that because they choose to still be active, so should horses, there is a HUGE difference between what we CHOOSE to do, and what the horse is MADE to do. For example, if you have bad shoulders, they would be made much worse by pushing heavy wheelbarrows, carrying heavy bales etc. Do you think it would be good for you to be made to do these things even though it was making your shoulders worse? And for those with a bad back, should you be made to carry a rucksack and go pounding the pavements running? Do you think that would do you good? You see that is where humans can choose what they do and horses cannot. We can choose to be active in a way that it benefits us, rather than making things worse. Horses cannot do that. I am a believer that if a horse is in pain, it should not be ridden, full stop. A horse can keep active whilst in the field with its mates.
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CHOOSE??? Pardon me, but I think you have got the wrong end of the stick! I'm sure this post is being aimed at me and I resent you saying I CHOOSE, in bold letters no less, to be active.

I HAVE to be active. A horse who has arthritis HAS to be active. If not, put the damned thing down because roaming in a 2 acre paddock with its arse up and head down all day is not NATURAL. We humans have to do the job of a NATURAL wild lifestyle whilst we keep them custody. A wild horse roams 20miles a day and plays and fights and breeds and nurtures it's herd mates... you cannot emulate that in a paddock "retiring" the poor thing.

Specifically, in arthritic horses, any vet research centre will give you reams of studies that show degenerative joint diseases benefit from exercise and doing nothing is detrimental. You may as well shoot it.

A person with degenerative arthritis is prescribed thousands of pounds worth of medication in order TO keep them active despite what they choose.

And on the subject of choice.... "I would love to be ridden one day by some bony oaf" said no horse.. EVER!
 
tallyho! said:
CHOOSE??? Pardon me, but I think you have got the wrong end of the stick! I'm sure this post is being aimed at me and I resent you saying I CHOOSE, in bold letters no less, to be active.

I HAVE to be active. A horse who has arthritis HAS to be active. If not, put the damned thing down because roaming in a 2 acre paddock with its arse up and head down all day is not NATURAL. We humans have to do the job of a NATURAL wild lifestyle whilst we keep them custody. A wild horse roams 20miles a day and plays and fights and breeds and nurtures it's herd mates... you cannot emulate that in a paddock "retiring" the poor thing.

Specifically, in arthritic horses, any vet research centre will give you reams of studies that show degenerative joint diseases benefit from exercise and doing nothing is detrimental. You may as well shoot it.

A person with degenerative arthritis is prescribed thousands of pounds worth of medication in order TO keep them active despite what they choose.

And on the subject of choice.... "I would love to be ridden one day by some bony oaf" said no horse.. EVER!
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Firstly, I was not aiming my post at you because several people had said the same thing. Secondly, my capital letters are used to emphasis words. If you personally do not CHOOSE to be active, are you saying you would rather not be? I have a painful condition which doctors have advised against doing anything with my horses because it aggravates it and I am only going to get worse. But the horses are my life and I CHOOSE to keep them, and therefore have to accept my pain as part and parcel of having horses. Horses on the other hand cannot just decide whether they continue carrying us on their backs or take a well deserved retirement.

If it is the case that you have no option but to work through your pain, that does not mean that your horses should too.
 
applecart14 said:
Says who exactly??? Certainly not in the opinion of my vet! It depends on whether the horse has been treated or not for arthritis. When my horse was diagnosed in 2007 I was told that he would go back into full work after treatment. If a horse has spavin but it has been treated then its okay to school and jump if the horse is comfortable and enjoys its work. That's why I've spent a few thousand pounds (or my insurance company has) getting my horse right. Admittedly I don't do the one day events I used to do much anymore, and I don't go out every weekend competing which is what I was doing at one point. But my horse is still capable and willing to jump a 3ft or 3ft 3 course as he is happy and willing to do an elementary dressage test. These days arthritis doesn't have to equal 'gentle hacks' and its ridiculous to suggest this as each horse is different, each responds differently to treatment and each has a different outcome. You can't label them all under one banner.

There are hundreds if not thousands of horses in this country that enjoy schooling hacking and jumping with mild arthritis, as there are people who enjoy riding, swimming, running and other sports and who also suffer from arthritis.
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If a horse has been treated and is no longer in pain as you say is the situation with your horse, then obviously, it is fine to do whatever they are happy doing. I am talking about horses in pain.
 
Speedyfluff said:
Firstly, I was not aiming my post at you because several people had said the same thing. Secondly, my capital letters are used to emphasis words. If you personally do not CHOOSE to be active, are you saying you would rather not be? I have a painful condition which doctors have advised against doing anything with my horses because it aggravates it and I am only going to get worse. But the horses are my life and I CHOOSE to keep them, and therefore have to accept my pain as part and parcel of having horses. Horses on the other hand cannot just decide whether they continue carrying us on their backs or take a well deserved retirement.

If it is the case that you have no option but to work through your pain, that does not mean that your horses should too.
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Lets agree to disagree :)
 
Speedyfluff said:
If a horse has been treated and is no longer in pain as you say is the situation with your horse, then obviously, it is fine to do whatever they are happy doing. I am talking about horses in pain.
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aha I see. Sorry I am slightly paranoid :)
No I wouldn't work a horse in pain, I would try to get to the bottom of it, and if necessary medicate/pain relief (same difference) if the problem wasn't likely to go away. I don't think I could live with my concience. And of course, I love my horse too much to do that to him anyway as do most people with a conscience.
 
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My view of this that retirement to an two acre paddock is the equine equivalent do house arrest not stimulating not enough exercise not enough socialisation , for me I would be looking to ideally twenty acres for horse not in work even it was for only part of the year but individual turnout in small paddocks not a good retirement in my view .
Arthritis can only get worse in these circumtances and as the muscles lose condition without work the joints will be under extra pressure .
So much can be done for older horses now to keep them happy and in work the a Tildren type drugs ,injections into the joints ( which I so wish where a good idea for people ) pain relief , magnetic products , lasering , equiassage type things the list almost endless .
My rule is I decrease what's expected of them but I don't stop jumping etc I don't expect them to ever attain more in terms of performance .
If the horse tells me it does not want to jump I listern to it , if it's still jumping and enjoying itself I see no reason to stop altogether .
Hunters will stop doing two days a week and will stop doing the very long days we sometimes do.
A bit of arthritis is not the end of a horses working life if the horse is sound and the condition managed they can have fun for years .
 
tallyho! said:
CHOOSE??? Pardon me, but I think you have got the wrong end of the stick! I'm sure this post is being aimed at me and I resent you saying I CHOOSE, in bold letters no less, to be active.

I HAVE to be active. A horse who has arthritis HAS to be active. If not, put the damned thing down because roaming in a 2 acre paddock with its arse up and head down all day is not NATURAL. We humans have to do the job of a NATURAL wild lifestyle whilst we keep them custody. A wild horse roams 20miles a day and plays and fights and breeds and nurtures it's herd mates... you cannot emulate that in a paddock "retiring" the poor thing.

Specifically, in arthritic horses, any vet research centre will give you reams of studies that show degenerative joint diseases benefit from exercise and doing nothing is detrimental. You may as well shoot it.

A person with degenerative arthritis is prescribed thousands of pounds worth of medication in order TO keep them active despite what they choose.

And on the subject of choice.... "I would love to be ridden one day by some bony oaf" said no horse.. EVER!
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Being active Tallyho!for a horse is grazing nearly all day athritic or not. That is what they naturally do.!Nothing unnatural about that.And we know domesticated horses are happy with their own kind and dont need to roam many miles. As you are comparing a horses lifestyle to a human which is absurd I choose not to overwork my athritic joints because I will suffer the next day.Horses have a huge capacity for enjoyment and life force which I have seen for myself, getting gentle exercise grazing in their field despite athritis. I can understand. it must be annoying for an owner who wishes to ride a fit horse to have to retire it because of athritis.When the horse is finding no enjoyment of life the P.t.s. is the kinder option.The fact that some owners care enough to give their horse a good retirement and some decide they will discard it is another debate. By work Tallyho! do you mean then if it is worked it will have earned the right to have it arse up and head down for the rest of the day.?
 
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