Do people not recognise, or ignore pain, in their horse?

Natural for a horse is grazing over a large area where they have to forage about .
Small Paddocks are no more natural than stables .
 
Goldenstar said:
Natural for a horse is grazing over a large area where they have to forage about .
Small Paddocks are no more natural than stables .
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Of course the larger acreage the better. The domesticated horse has adapted over the centuries to graze within more contained spaces than their ancestors and do well enough on it.Where did the small paddock come into it anyway.
 
Mister Ted said:
Of course the larger acreage the better. The domesticated horse has adapted over the centuries to graze within more contained spaces than their ancestors and do well enough on it.Where did the small paddock come into it anyway.
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Agree with this. I'm sure a horse would rather have to retire on two acres with a friend or two than being shot or made to work through pain. I keep my three on four acres. Two are retired and one is just being backed. Never seen such happy horses. I don't just dump them in a field though. They get groomed every day, feet picked out etc. In winter they are stabled at night. Or perhaps I should just shoot them.
 
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Speedyfluff said:
Agree with this. I'm sure a horse would rather have to retire on two acres with a friend or two than being shot or made to work through pain. I keep my three on four acres. Two are retired and one is just being backed. Never seen such happy horses. I don't just dump them in a field though. They get groomed every day, feet picked out etc. In winter they are stabled at night. Or perhaps I should just shoot them.
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A horses fate is in the hands of their owners ultimately, some caring and understanding with a genuine love of the horse, others indifferent and ignorant as the stories of horses in distress are told in the posts.Your story is lovely to read though in my view.
 
EQUIDAE said:
By disagreeing are you saying a horse should have to work through the pain? By quoting that that is how it comes across and that, frankly, is sick.
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What part of any of my posts make me a sick person, please? I'd like you to explain yourself.

Calling a person sick, needs some back-up.
 
Speedyfluff said:
Agree with this. I'm sure a horse would rather have to retire on two acres with a friend or two than being shot or made to work through pain. I keep my three on four acres. Two are retired and one is just being backed. Never seen such happy horses. I don't just dump them in a field though. They get groomed every day, feet picked out etc. In winter they are stabled at night. Or perhaps I should just shoot them.
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Has anyone suggested you should shoot them ?
 
Goldenstar said:
Arthritis can only get worse in these circumtances and as the muscles lose condition without work the joints will be under extra pressure .
So much can be done for older horses now to keep them happy and in work the a Tildren type drugs ,injections into the joints ( which I so wish where a good idea for people ) pain relief , magnetic products , lasering , equiassage type things the list almost endless .
My rule is I decrease what's expected of them but I don't stop jumping etc I don't expect them to ever attain more in terms of performance .
If the horse tells me it does not want to jump I listern to it , if it's still jumping and enjoying itself I see no reason to stop altogether .
Hunters will stop doing two days a week and will stop doing the very long days we sometimes do.
A bit of arthritis is not the end of a horses working life if the horse is sound and the condition managed they can have fun for years .
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Hooray for a bit of common sense. My vet said that horses that are used to working all their lives and suddenly turned out into a field just become loose in their ligaments and joints and more often than not these horses are the ones that are often pts after a few months because they end up having problems because they are not kept in work. He didn't go into further detail but I suspect that what he was saying is that they actually end up breaking down as the muscles, ligaments and tendons that are hardened through work become problematic.

Tildren was great for my horse for a few years, until fusion with ethanol sorted the problem thank goodness.
Like Goldenstar says the best person to judge a horse and its capabilities are those that ride it every day, know it inside out and are best able to judge how it feels. I would feel thoroughly ashamed to jump my horse if he was telling me he no longer enjoyed it and would listen to him if he started bucking, or refusing jumps as I have always done in the past and got him treated accordingly.

But when I see him with his head stuck out of the top door of the trailer when I open it, hearing the tannoy and excited about his next 'mission' or when he jumps for fun at a competition I see no reason to end it all for him or me because of an ill conceived idea that arthritis should be the end of a horses competetive life. Lets face it jumping two rounds of fences at 2ft 9, once a week or a fortnight is hardly a mammoth task for a fit horse.
 
Goldenstar said:
My view of this that retirement to an two acre paddock is the equine equivalent do house arrest not stimulating not enough exercise not enough socialisation , for me I would be looking to ideally twenty acres for horse not in work even it was for only part of the year but individual turnout in small paddocks not a good retirement in my view .
Arthritis can only get worse in these circumtances and as the muscles lose condition without work the joints will be under extra pressure .
So much can be done for older horses now to keep them happy and in work the a Tildren type drugs ,injections into the joints ( which I so wish where a good idea for people ) pain relief , magnetic products , lasering , equiassage type things the list almost endless .
My rule is I decrease what's expected of them but I don't stop jumping etc I don't expect them to ever attain more in terms of performance .
If the horse tells me it does not want to jump I listern to it , if it's still jumping and enjoying itself I see no reason to stop altogether .
Hunters will stop doing two days a week and will stop doing the very long days we sometimes do.
A bit of arthritis is not the end of a horses working life if the horse is sound and the condition managed they can have fun for years .
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Agree wth applecart14... thank you GS for a reasoned post. I wish I was as eloquent!

I can't believe I've been called "sick"!!
 
applecart14 said:
Hooray for a bit of common sense. My vet said that horses that are used to working all their lives and suddenly turned out into a field just become loose in their ligaments and joints and more often than not these horses are the ones that are often pts after a few months because they end up having problems because they are not kept in work. He didn't go into further detail but I suspect that what he was saying is that they actually end up breaking down as the muscles, ligaments and tendons that are hardened through work become problematic.

Tildren was great for my horse for a few years, until fusion with ethanol sorted the problem thank goodness.
Like Goldenstar says the best person to judge a horse and its capabilities are those that ride it every day, know it inside out and are best able to judge how it feels. I would feel thoroughly ashamed to jump my horse if he was telling me he no longer enjoyed it and would listen to him if he started bucking, or refusing jumps as I have always done in the past and got him treated accordingly.

But when I see him with his head stuck out of the top door of the trailer when I open it, hearing the tannoy and excited about his next 'mission' or when he jumps for fun at a competition I see no reason to end it all for him or me because of an ill conceived idea that arthritis should be the end of a horses competetive life. Lets face it jumping two rounds of fences at 2ft 9, once a week or a fortnight is hardly a mammoth task for a fit horse.
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More sense here!

Some people obviously listen to vet advice and latest research.
 
Goldenstar said:
Has anyone suggested you should shoot them ?
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Of course not, but your post suggested that anything less than 20 acres for retirement was like keeping someone under house arrest. So what is the alternative? I am just disagreeing with you and saying that horses can be happily retired in much less, especially if the owner continues to attend to them daily rather than just dump them there and forget about them
 
Speedyfluff said:
Of course not, but your post suggested that anything less than 20 acres for retirement was like keeping someone under house arrest. So what is the alternative? I am just disagreeing with you and saying that horses can be happily retired in much less, especially if the owner continues to attend to them daily rather than just dump them there and forget about them
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That's what I believe, small paddocks in retirement is less than optimal for physical health ,they can't get enough exercise .
That's why I think it's important to keep horses in some sort of work with appropriate veterinary support .
Many many conditions are exacerbated by lack of movement if you can't provide enough movement in a large field then you have to try to do it another way .
It may be the norm for horses to keep in less than ideal conditions but it does not mean it represents optimal management .
 
Goldenstar said:
That's what I believe, small paddocks in retirement is less than optimal for physical health ,they can't get enough exercise .
That's why I think it's important to keep horses in some sort of work with appropriate veterinary support .
Many many conditions are exacerbated by lack of movement if you can't provide enough movement in a large field then you have to try to do it another way .
It may be the norm for horses to keep in less than ideal conditions but it does not mean it represents optimal management .
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The problem is, it just isn't possible for most in this country. I only have 3 horses. If I kept them on 20 acres they would be obese! Then you get other problems such as ems and laminitis, particularly in older animals that may also have Cushings.
 
I do understand tallyho's point that natural is not just head down and grazing but covering a pretty vast mileage between grazing points.
 
Speedyfluff said:
The problem is, it just isn't possible for most in this country. I only have 3 horses. If I kept them on 20 acres they would be obese! Then you get other problems such as ems and laminitis, particularly in older animals that may also have Cushings.
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What sort of size area do you keep yours then?
 
Do you know, I think you've missed the point. I don't think anyone has suggested riding horses that are in a lot of pain. However, a horse with some arthritic changes is often better if kept in some work than retired completely. It helps to keep their muscles toned and will keep them looser and in much better condition. It also gives them mental stimulation. A sachet of bute can also help and I've no problem whatsoever in giving bute if it keeps a horse comfortable. Turning out in relatively small areas of grazing doesn't actually get them moving much and stabling also can cause them to stiffen up so keeping out 24/7 suitably rugged can be better for them. I kept my, now retired, TB in work for several years by using hock injections, bute when needed and carefully monitoring his work load. I only retired him when he became trippy and a potential danger to himself and his rider. I have regular vet checks, he's field sound and I am satisfied that he is well enough to enjoy his retirement but the moment i see him struggle to get up or down, go off his food or give me any reason to think he's in unhappy, then I will PTS. I'm sure some people do not recognise when their horse is in pain but in my experience most horses are pretty good at telling you when something is wrong and good owners are prepared to listen.
Speedyfluff said:
They usually have the run of four acres good grazing. I divide it if any of them get too fat in the summer and they come in at night in the winter.
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tallyho! said:
Are any of the of them arthritic?
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Yes, my old girl who's 23 has hock arthritis but is field sound without bute when out 24/7. But when I stable her overnight in winter she stiffens up, but is fine if she has one danilon a day. My gelding has kissing spine, but you wouldn't know to see him in the field. You just can't ride him. My youngster is only four and has nothing wrong with him as far as I know. Why?
 
Speedyfluff said:
Yes, my old girl who's 23 has hock arthritis but is field sound without bute when out 24/7. But when I stable her overnight in winter she stiffens up, but is fine if she has one danilon a day. My gelding has kissing spine, but you wouldn't know to see him in the field. You just can't ride him. My youngster is only four and has nothing wrong with him as far as I know. Why?
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So.... not sure why you are calling me sick... as, I am only saying arthritic conditions require movement and muscle strength which is why people and horses must continue to keep active. It's not a choice. It's an absolute prescription.

What some owners fail to grasp sometimes is that joints and bones need healthy, functioning, strong muscles, tendons and ligaments to support them. Without muscle mass and tendon strength the joints would be closer together and therefore the wear and tear increases due to increased friction. The muscle mass helps keep joints apart so the synovial fluids have room to get between the joints.

So, for ARTHRITIS only I'm talking about here... it is absolutely essential to maintain muscle mass and tendon strength. Without this, the joints would get much, much worse.

Lets take the age old argument of backing horses at 3yo vs 5yo. Whilst bone fusion does not complete until 6yo, if we are to ride a horse, the muscles and tendons must be conditioned to the environment in which the animal must work. Which means the horse must exercise to build strength and muscle mass to carry a rider. It's not rocket science.

I have never met a horse that is willing to work through pain. Then again I'm not a 'strap it and whack it' kind of person. I ride lightly, all my training is classical and I do not use gadgets. I use physiology, kinesiology and empathy so it never gets as far as "force". I work on a rule it out basis. All our horses get 24/7/364 turnout in a herd with more than 20 acres of grazing. Even the cushingoid and laminitic gets 24/7/365 and lived pretty much symptom free until she died of heart failure at 30. Horses do self regulate if you allow them to live a natural life. My laminitic barefoot horse even did xc on this lifestyle. I know not everyone has 20 acres spare...

Does the above make me a sick person?
 
tallyho! said:
So.... not sure why you are calling me sick... as, I am only saying arthritic conditions require movement and muscle strength which is why people and horses must continue to keep active. It's not a choice. It's an absolute prescription.

What some owners fail to grasp sometimes is that joints and bones need healthy, functioning, strong muscles, tendons and ligaments to support them. Without muscle mass and tendon strength the joints would be closer together and therefore the wear and tear increases due to increased friction. The muscle mass helps keep joints apart so the synovial fluids have room to get between the joints.

So, for ARTHRITIS only I'm talking about here... it is absolutely essential to maintain muscle mass and tendon strength. Without this, the joints would get much, much worse.

Lets take the age old argument of backing horses at 3yo vs 5yo. Whilst bone fusion does not complete until 6yo, if we are to ride a horse, the muscles and tendons must be conditioned to the environment in which the animal must work. Which means the horse must exercise to build strength and muscle mass to carry a rider. It's not rocket science.

I have never met a horse that is willing to work through pain. Then again I'm not a 'strap it and whack it' kind of person. I ride lightly, all my training is classical and I do not use gadgets. I use physiology, kinesiology and empathy so it never gets as far as "force". I work on a rule it out basis. All our horses get 24/7/364 turnout in a herd with more than 20 acres of grazing. Even the cushingoid and laminitic gets 24/7/365 and lived pretty much symptom free until she died of heart failure at 30. Horses do self regulate if you allow them to live a natural life. My laminitic barefoot horse even did xc on this lifestyle. I know not everyone has 20 acres spare...

Does the above make me a sick person?
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I haven't called you sick. That was another poster!
 
I have never met a horse that is willing to work through pain.
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1. If the horse was willing to work through pain then you might never have realised that it was in pain.

2. I've known loads. Horses which are 'a bit cold backed', lame horses which will hunt all day, horses which a strong rider convinced that they just have to put up with it (which probably includes a few of the 'naughty' horses I sorted out in my youth). I had one who reared and bucked when you got on, but the vet told me it was temperament. He won his last competition, and two weeks later I got a diagnosis of nearly total kidney failure and he was put down. The (new) vet who did the test congratulated me on knowing my own horse, and said he had thought I was imagining things. Meanwhile, that horse had been in pain for a year, to the extent that he ripped his rugs at night buying at his own back, but he still consented not only to do dressage and jump, but to win doing it.
 
I think rather than concentrating on those with arthritic conditions, the OP was talking about those competing horses who are unhappy, for whatever reason. One poster (not sure who) was talking about a horse who "guards" himself in warm up arenas, that horse may be fine ridden, but I consider it unfair to subject that animal to those warm up arenas. Others may of course disagree.
 
Interesting thread. I wonder if, come Judgement Day, we will all be presented with the truth and then how will we feel?

I know that my Harry was lame on both hind legs for some time before we realised. This was despite many experts seeing him, and physio and chiropractor treatments. Really, the only clue we had that he was uncomfortable was that he was grumpy, and as we had not had him that long we just thought that was his character. Eventually he was diagnosed with bilateral hock spavins, had an operation and then came back in to work with some danilon - MUCH happier. Recently he had a year off, we thought it was the start of his retirement, but when we lost my youngster, harry came back to live at home and we had the vet to tell us how best to manage him, and he was very clear that Harry would be better doing work than not - even though the alternative was 24/7 turnout on a 12 acre field with 3 others.

What did I learn from this? That the best intentioned owners can sometimes miss pain or discomfort in their horses, as can the experts. That signs of pain can be subtle and easily dismissed by the owner, who wants it not to be true. That 'behavioural issues' should be thoroughly investigated as they create a presumption of pain. That work is sometimes the best thing for horses even with physical issues, provided proper pain relief is given. And I also know from other horses I've had that sometimes the 'behaviour' is as subtle as taking 30 seconds longer to load, or an extra wrinkle next to the nostril. And that it can be very challenging to know how to respond.

To sum that all up, my answer to the OP's original question is, yes.
 
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